The iPad price isn't the problem, the problem is the books price. For this to really succeed Apple has to find a way to reduce the Textbook price.
Easy to use tool will definitely help by making the authors publish directly to the App store and eliminate the Publishers.
I hope this will not be another US only.
There is whole sale copying of school textbooks happening. Publishers could subsidize iPads against against a lower cost textbook subscription and make much more than they do now imo.
Yes, not dumbing the nation down to Texas's level is extremely important
So, only presenting one option in either case (especially when the science is simply a theory and the details debated among scientists) is better? :roll eyes:
Disclaimer: I'm a Creationist, but I believe an issue such as this is better handled with a fair and open discussion--since neither option can be proven absolutely. (i.e. seen in action), and the implications of either theory are too important just to cram one view down someone's throat. Both camps should give a fair presentation of both sides of the debate and explain WHY they disagree with the opposing viewpoint. (discussing the counter-arguments is also a good idea---you know, discussion)
Hope this helps to bring down the cost of textbooks. Also hope it's not a US only thing.
Really like the idea of making it easier to self publish and anything that helps push out Adobe and their rip-off pricing is very welcome.
I can see the day when we have a national curriculum app which has all the required textbooks included so you don't have to go and buy them all separately. The iPad really does have so much potential to change things like no computer before it.
If this is true then it follows that Apple must either
1. extend their education discounts to K-12 students and include the iPad
2. Extend the discount but only the one for the iPad
3. Give a discount but only via schools placing bulk orders either to loan to students or resell at cost to the students
4. Drop the starting price of the iPad
5. Keep the base iPad 2 at a reduced cost perhaps only as an education online item (a la the MacBook)
Just had a meeting with the sometimes completely clueless PC IT head of our school district who thinks that iPads are no good because they are not laptops (duh!). But I'll add to your list.
6. No real way to massively deploy iPads (like the way you can set up the Mac OS exactly the way that you want it, make an image of it, and push it over the network to other Macs). Buy 100 iPads for your school district = a complete pain in the ass setting everything up before distributing them. If this could be done once and pushed out things would be incrementally easier.
7. No legal way to monitor/control what users are doing with the iPads (key requirement in an educational setting).
iPads would be a little easier to justify to brain-dead IT/PC guys if Apple addressed 6 and 7.
Ultimately, that is the problem. While the Apple platforms are good. They aren't good enough for everyone.
steve's biggest marketing pitch is to tell how good a people is and this individual also uses mac products. i don't get it that it is so simple idea that no many get it. sorry if i am saying this harsh: apple never tried to please everyone, but successful ones.
So, only presenting one option in either case (especially when the science is simply a theory and the details debated among scientists) is better? :roll eyes:
Disclaimer: I'm a Creationist, but I believe an issue such as this is better handled with a fair and open discussion--since neither option can be proven absolutely. (i.e. seen in action), and the implications of either theory are too important just to cram one view down someone's throat. Both camps should give a fair presentation of both sides of the debate and explain WHY they disagree with the opposing viewpoint. (discussing the counter-arguments is also a good idea---you know, discussion)
The Texas board did not have a fair and even discussion. They had enough ID folk on the committee to win all votes. It wasn't only Intelligent Design, they also made wholesale changes to actual history in the textbooks. The panel involved was not made up of scientists or scholars, you know, people who actually have knowledge and experience of the topics at hand. THAT is what I meant by dumbing things down to Texas's level. I mean, they cut Thomas Jefferson out of history.
Concentrating on K-12 makes no sense to me (and why I don't buy the Bloomberg report).
Getting books approved for K-12 is a difficult process involving state BofEs and sometimes involves state legislatures. University books, however, are at the discretion of the individual professors and schools - especially in the case of private universities. Further, professors are often authors themselves, or want to be, and would be perfect candidates for self-publishing solutions.
If Apple really is going after K-12 then I think their efforts will be of little consequence.
But then again ... we'll see (and learn more tomorrow).
The Texas board did not have a fair and even discussion. They had enough ID folk on the committee to win all votes. It wasn't only Intelligent Design, they also made wholesale changes to actual history in the textbooks. The panel involved was not made up of scientists or scholars, you know, people who actually have knowledge and experience of the topics at hand. THAT is what I meant by dumbing things down to Texas's level. I mean, they cut Thomas Jefferson out of history.
That I can agree with you on. You can't cut out Jefferson--even if you don't like everything he has to say. The man was a founder of the country and a president!
Concentrating on K-12 makes no sense to me (and why I don't buy the Bloomberg report).
Getting books approved for K-12 is a difficult process involving state BofEs and sometimes involves state legislatures. University books, however, are at the discretion of the individual professors and schools - especially in the case of private universities. Further, professors are often authors themselves, or want to be, and would be perfect candidates for self-publishing solutions.
If Apple really is going after K-12 then I think their efforts will be of little consequence.
But then again ... we'll see (and learn more tomorrow).
Imagine if as part of the announcement, Apple said they were focusing on their home state first and subsidized a lower price iPad for every K-12 school in California and paid for the first year's worth of textbooks. That could easily cost that 3B or so that Apple had earmarked for strategic investment. Investing in our nation's future by helping to educate kids could be an interesting take on things.
I don't think this will happen, but it's certainly fun to think about
for professors, just publishing their books in current format is not enough anymore. digital device can provide better interactive communication than traditional paper medium. further paper based textbook can be easily printer-copied and piracy is bad. so it would make sense that textbook publishers want to move away from paper. in this effort, lots of ppl are needed to publish a textbook, so more ppl would be hired as well. of course, ppl in traditional paper printing business will be hurt and thus shrink, but it will not disappear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingNewMedia
Concentrating on K-12 makes no sense to me (and why I don't buy the Bloomberg report).
Getting books approved for K-12 is a difficult process involving state BofEs and sometimes involves state legislatures. University books, however, are at the discretion of the individual professors and schools - especially in the case of private universities. Further, professors are often authors themselves, or want to be, and would be perfect candidates for self-publishing solutions.
If Apple really is going after K-12 then I think their efforts will be of little consequence.
But then again ... we'll see (and learn more tomorrow).
The weight issue is wonderful for kids but I can't even begin to count the number of times I'd get to a class with the wrong books or get home with the wrong ones. I had a sort of mental fog when I was in the first few years at Grammar School, The Royal Liberty, in Essex UK. Probably as I had a 90 minute commute in both directions and a long walk to and from bloody stations. Oh how wonderful iPad technology would have been for me back then! All data available from anywhere as long as I had had my iPad. All those detentions I'd have avoided! Lucky kids today.
1) In the US kindergarten typically starts at 5yo, with 1st grade being 6yo and so on. So 12, or 12th grade typically means student graduate around 17 to 18yo.
2) Wikipedia is down, expect for one page, but you can also use cached pages in Google to find anything you want in Wikipedia today. "Work smater, not harder." Scrooge McDuck
3) The only way something is sticking is if it's made official by Apple, which then makes this being AppleInsider a pointless site if they don't report on rumours and speculation.
Took me a while to figure the nomenclature out when I first came to the States to live, I kept hearing this 'k12' mentioned and I knew what k9 was, the American Police Dog units. So I was really confused till enlightened.
So it sounds like they are saying this is more geared toward grade/middle/high school where the schools typically give a student a book for each of their courses and the student then returns the book at the end of the class so it can be re-used for the following class. Fines are collected from students that damage the books more than regular wear and tear. In this case a school could theoretically give each student an ipad with whatever books they need on it, and then collect the ipad at the end of the year. If you damage the ipad you have to pay for the damages. Or maybe the students have to supply their own ipads, but they school can loan out so many copies of each textbook in e-book form each year, and then take them back at the end of the year. No more wear and tear on the books, and it's much simpler to upgrade an e-book to a new edition when it's released instead of buying all new textbooks (assuming the publishers will just release free or discounted updates instead of charging for a whole new book).
It sounds like they are avoiding the college textbook situation at this time where most students are forced to buy their own books. Many students buy used books, or sell their used books after they complete the course. This may be a more difficult market to get into because how do you sell a e-book to someone else?
Those are good points. A lot of the speculation around this announcement has focused on the college textbook market, with a lot of people wondering how Apple could possibly convince the publishers to relinquish their hefty profits in a way that would make electronic editions even desirable, much less preferable.
But as you say, K-12 is a whole different animal. Given the re-occurring costs to schools districts to acquire, store, provide and replace a huge inventory of textbooks, it's much easier to imagine a way for Apple to provide a service that works for all participants. The textbook publishers could charge less and still make their money, since they could realize cost savings over conventional print runs.
But more importantly they could charge the same and the school districts could still save money, since they would be unburdened of the shipping, storage and replacement costs of traditional books. Not to mention access to editorial updates, built in interactivity, peer to peer collaboration, and being able to uniformly address the student population via a single hardware/software channel (scheduling, grades, notes to parents, school news, private notes from teachers, breaking news, etc).
Sure, there's a fairly hefty buy-in cost for the hardware, but if Apple can get enough publishers on board there are huge savings and benefits on the backend, so the economics might actually make sense for more than just a handful of wealthy school districts intent on impressing parents with their forward vision. In other words, Apple may intend to mainstream electronic textbooks via the iPad in much the same way they've mainstreamed other prior existing but muddled technologies.
So, only presenting one option in either case (especially when the science is simply a theory and the details debated among scientists) is better? :roll eyes:
Disclaimer: I'm a Creationist, but I believe an issue such as this is better handled with a fair and open discussion--since neither option can be proven absolutely. (i.e. seen in action), and the implications of either theory are too important just to cram one view down someone's throat. Both camps should give a fair presentation of both sides of the debate and explain WHY they disagree with the opposing viewpoint. (discussing the counter-arguments is also a good idea---you know, discussion)
I could easily see a new bare bones model of the ipad being released just for schools at a much lower price. Knock it down to 8Gb, get rid of the camera (don't want kids taking naughty pictures with the schools property) get rid of bluetooth, keep the current res screen, etc. Create a slightly different version of iOS that lets the school IT department easily manage/image multiple iPads at the same time. Only allow the IT department to install apps/books.
This really could work well, and be a cost savings for the schools. As well as make the textbook publishers more money. Maybe instead of them selling the books to the schools once every 5-10 years instead now they rent the books to the schools for so much money per copy, per year. They can then make small updates to the books each year, etc. and have a constant revenue stream instead of one that can swing wildly as different schools replace/don't replace their books each year.
I really think this is where Apple should be concentrating if they aren't, because others are. My wife is a high school guidance counselor and they are currently in discussions with a few companies to do very similar things with simple android based tablets like the kindle fire.
Knock it down to 8Gb, get rid of the camera (don't want kids taking naughty pictures with the schools property) get rid of bluetooth, keep the current res screen
So, ruin it, in essence. An 8GB tablet? Why do so many people think this idea is anything but laughable?
Quote:
Create a slightly different version of iOS
Quote:
easily manage/image multiple iPads at the same time.
One Apple ID per institution, parental controls to prevent unauthorized purchases. Simple.
Comments
Easy to use tool will definitely help by making the authors publish directly to the App store and eliminate the Publishers.
I hope this will not be another US only.
That's insane. $399.
the BoM at launch was $225 and its probably down to well under $200 now
the BoM at launch was $225 and its probably down to well under $200 now
Lowering it to the price of the Kindle Fire would be legitimizing it as a competitor. It's not. Apple has no reason to do that.
The iPad price isn't the problem, the problem is the books price. For this to really succeed Apple has to find a way to reduce the Textbook price.
Easy to use tool will definitely help by making the authors publish directly to the App store and eliminate the Publishers.
I hope this will not be another US only.
There is whole sale copying of school textbooks happening. Publishers could subsidize iPads against against a lower cost textbook subscription and make much more than they do now imo.
Yes, not dumbing the nation down to Texas's level is extremely important
So, only presenting one option in either case (especially when the science is simply a theory and the details debated among scientists) is better? :roll eyes:
Disclaimer: I'm a Creationist, but I believe an issue such as this is better handled with a fair and open discussion--since neither option can be proven absolutely. (i.e. seen in action), and the implications of either theory are too important just to cram one view down someone's throat. Both camps should give a fair presentation of both sides of the debate and explain WHY they disagree with the opposing viewpoint. (discussing the counter-arguments is also a good idea---you know, discussion)
Lowering it to the price of the Kindle Fire would be legitimizing it as a competitor. It's not. Apple has no reason to do that.
it would be as bad as a free on contract 3gs that competes with free android phones wouldn't it
in most product categories apple has a cheapo version for the low end of the market
Really like the idea of making it easier to self publish and anything that helps push out Adobe and their rip-off pricing is very welcome.
I can see the day when we have a national curriculum app which has all the required textbooks included so you don't have to go and buy them all separately. The iPad really does have so much potential to change things like no computer before it.
If this is true then it follows that Apple must either
1. extend their education discounts to K-12 students and include the iPad
2. Extend the discount but only the one for the iPad
3. Give a discount but only via schools placing bulk orders either to loan to students or resell at cost to the students
4. Drop the starting price of the iPad
5. Keep the base iPad 2 at a reduced cost perhaps only as an education online item (a la the MacBook)
Just had a meeting with the sometimes completely clueless PC IT head of our school district who thinks that iPads are no good because they are not laptops (duh!). But I'll add to your list.
6. No real way to massively deploy iPads (like the way you can set up the Mac OS exactly the way that you want it, make an image of it, and push it over the network to other Macs). Buy 100 iPads for your school district = a complete pain in the ass setting everything up before distributing them. If this could be done once and pushed out things would be incrementally easier.
7. No legal way to monitor/control what users are doing with the iPads (key requirement in an educational setting).
iPads would be a little easier to justify to brain-dead IT/PC guys if Apple addressed 6 and 7.
Ultimately, that is the problem. While the Apple platforms are good. They aren't good enough for everyone.
steve's biggest marketing pitch is to tell how good a people is and this individual also uses mac products. i don't get it that it is so simple idea that no many get it. sorry if i am saying this harsh: apple never tried to please everyone, but successful ones.
So, only presenting one option in either case (especially when the science is simply a theory and the details debated among scientists) is better? :roll eyes:
Disclaimer: I'm a Creationist, but I believe an issue such as this is better handled with a fair and open discussion--since neither option can be proven absolutely. (i.e. seen in action), and the implications of either theory are too important just to cram one view down someone's throat. Both camps should give a fair presentation of both sides of the debate and explain WHY they disagree with the opposing viewpoint. (discussing the counter-arguments is also a good idea---you know, discussion)
The Texas board did not have a fair and even discussion. They had enough ID folk on the committee to win all votes. It wasn't only Intelligent Design, they also made wholesale changes to actual history in the textbooks. The panel involved was not made up of scientists or scholars, you know, people who actually have knowledge and experience of the topics at hand. THAT is what I meant by dumbing things down to Texas's level. I mean, they cut Thomas Jefferson out of history.
Getting books approved for K-12 is a difficult process involving state BofEs and sometimes involves state legislatures. University books, however, are at the discretion of the individual professors and schools - especially in the case of private universities. Further, professors are often authors themselves, or want to be, and would be perfect candidates for self-publishing solutions.
If Apple really is going after K-12 then I think their efforts will be of little consequence.
But then again ... we'll see (and learn more tomorrow).
The Texas board did not have a fair and even discussion. They had enough ID folk on the committee to win all votes. It wasn't only Intelligent Design, they also made wholesale changes to actual history in the textbooks. The panel involved was not made up of scientists or scholars, you know, people who actually have knowledge and experience of the topics at hand. THAT is what I meant by dumbing things down to Texas's level. I mean, they cut Thomas Jefferson out of history.
That I can agree with you on. You can't cut out Jefferson--even if you don't like everything he has to say. The man was a founder of the country and a president!
Concentrating on K-12 makes no sense to me (and why I don't buy the Bloomberg report).
Getting books approved for K-12 is a difficult process involving state BofEs and sometimes involves state legislatures. University books, however, are at the discretion of the individual professors and schools - especially in the case of private universities. Further, professors are often authors themselves, or want to be, and would be perfect candidates for self-publishing solutions.
If Apple really is going after K-12 then I think their efforts will be of little consequence.
But then again ... we'll see (and learn more tomorrow).
Imagine if as part of the announcement, Apple said they were focusing on their home state first and subsidized a lower price iPad for every K-12 school in California and paid for the first year's worth of textbooks. That could easily cost that 3B or so that Apple had earmarked for strategic investment. Investing in our nation's future by helping to educate kids could be an interesting take on things.
I don't think this will happen, but it's certainly fun to think about
Concentrating on K-12 makes no sense to me (and why I don't buy the Bloomberg report).
Getting books approved for K-12 is a difficult process involving state BofEs and sometimes involves state legislatures. University books, however, are at the discretion of the individual professors and schools - especially in the case of private universities. Further, professors are often authors themselves, or want to be, and would be perfect candidates for self-publishing solutions.
If Apple really is going after K-12 then I think their efforts will be of little consequence.
But then again ... we'll see (and learn more tomorrow).
1) In the US kindergarten typically starts at 5yo, with 1st grade being 6yo and so on. So 12, or 12th grade typically means student graduate around 17 to 18yo.
2) Wikipedia is down, expect for one page, but you can also use cached pages in Google to find anything you want in Wikipedia today. "Work smater, not harder." Scrooge McDuck
3) The only way something is sticking is if it's made official by Apple, which then makes this being AppleInsider a pointless site if they don't report on rumours and speculation.
Took me a while to figure the nomenclature out when I first came to the States to live, I kept hearing this 'k12' mentioned and I knew what k9 was, the American Police Dog units. So I was really confused till enlightened.
So it sounds like they are saying this is more geared toward grade/middle/high school where the schools typically give a student a book for each of their courses and the student then returns the book at the end of the class so it can be re-used for the following class. Fines are collected from students that damage the books more than regular wear and tear. In this case a school could theoretically give each student an ipad with whatever books they need on it, and then collect the ipad at the end of the year. If you damage the ipad you have to pay for the damages. Or maybe the students have to supply their own ipads, but they school can loan out so many copies of each textbook in e-book form each year, and then take them back at the end of the year. No more wear and tear on the books, and it's much simpler to upgrade an e-book to a new edition when it's released instead of buying all new textbooks (assuming the publishers will just release free or discounted updates instead of charging for a whole new book).
It sounds like they are avoiding the college textbook situation at this time where most students are forced to buy their own books. Many students buy used books, or sell their used books after they complete the course. This may be a more difficult market to get into because how do you sell a e-book to someone else?
Those are good points. A lot of the speculation around this announcement has focused on the college textbook market, with a lot of people wondering how Apple could possibly convince the publishers to relinquish their hefty profits in a way that would make electronic editions even desirable, much less preferable.
But as you say, K-12 is a whole different animal. Given the re-occurring costs to schools districts to acquire, store, provide and replace a huge inventory of textbooks, it's much easier to imagine a way for Apple to provide a service that works for all participants. The textbook publishers could charge less and still make their money, since they could realize cost savings over conventional print runs.
But more importantly they could charge the same and the school districts could still save money, since they would be unburdened of the shipping, storage and replacement costs of traditional books. Not to mention access to editorial updates, built in interactivity, peer to peer collaboration, and being able to uniformly address the student population via a single hardware/software channel (scheduling, grades, notes to parents, school news, private notes from teachers, breaking news, etc).
Sure, there's a fairly hefty buy-in cost for the hardware, but if Apple can get enough publishers on board there are huge savings and benefits on the backend, so the economics might actually make sense for more than just a handful of wealthy school districts intent on impressing parents with their forward vision. In other words, Apple may intend to mainstream electronic textbooks via the iPad in much the same way they've mainstreamed other prior existing but muddled technologies.
So, only presenting one option in either case (especially when the science is simply a theory and the details debated among scientists) is better? :roll eyes:
Disclaimer: I'm a Creationist, but I believe an issue such as this is better handled with a fair and open discussion--since neither option can be proven absolutely. (i.e. seen in action), and the implications of either theory are too important just to cram one view down someone's throat. Both camps should give a fair presentation of both sides of the debate and explain WHY they disagree with the opposing viewpoint. (discussing the counter-arguments is also a good idea---you know, discussion)
Best laugh I've had all day.
This really could work well, and be a cost savings for the schools. As well as make the textbook publishers more money. Maybe instead of them selling the books to the schools once every 5-10 years instead now they rent the books to the schools for so much money per copy, per year. They can then make small updates to the books each year, etc. and have a constant revenue stream instead of one that can swing wildly as different schools replace/don't replace their books each year.
I really think this is where Apple should be concentrating if they aren't, because others are. My wife is a high school guidance counselor and they are currently in discussions with a few companies to do very similar things with simple android based tablets like the kindle fire.
Knock it down to 8Gb, get rid of the camera (don't want kids taking naughty pictures with the schools property) get rid of bluetooth, keep the current res screen
So, ruin it, in essence. An 8GB tablet? Why do so many people think this idea is anything but laughable?
Create a slightly different version of iOS
easily manage/image multiple iPads at the same time.
One Apple ID per institution, parental controls to prevent unauthorized purchases. Simple.