True but I prefer their way of doing it. Thunderbolt is more of a data protocol than video so IMO, it would have made more sense to put Thunderbolt over the USB port and leave the display ports alone. This would mean having to attach another cable for a monitor dock though.
The advantage is that hard drive manufacturers can build them with just a single standard USB 3/Thunderbolt connection, which would be compatible with every machine.
They are using Mini-DP but it squeezes USB 3 on there instead of PCI and ends up reducing USB 3 bandwidth.
Now that PC manufacturers are on board with Thunderbolt, I imagine we will start to see a shift in the comments from the anti-Apple crowd. Oh, Thunderbolt was going to fail vs USB 3 was it? Oh, Thunderbolt is just Apple's proprietary crap like Firewire and USB 3 is so much better? Well, I guess we'll just wait and see - Intel is going to ship both together with Ivy Bridge.
(In case it hasn't been mentioned) remember that Intel tried to include TB over the USB Type-A port interface but was shot down even though they were the one who created USB in the first place.
While that would have been nice there is a benefit to this being on mDP. You will now get a lot more machines using the mDP port interface which will make it easier for Mac buyers. I am also glad that I won't have to give up any USB ports to use it. It's like an extra data port to use.
Also, I haven't connected an external monitor to my Mac in who knows how many years. I'm guessing that is common for notebook users. This makes a previously unused port potentially useful and doubly so if you do use an external monitor because your docking set up can now be only one plug instead of one for the display and one for TB over USB Type-A port interface if they had gone that route.
2) I want to hit you with a rolled up newspaper and say "No! No! No!" when you post stuff like that.... Bad, DaHarder, bad!
Sol, I don't know why you even bother to reply to DaHarder. A brief look at his posting history shows him to be a known troll who cares not for accuracy, intelligent posts .... but rather just wants to incite discord amongst other posters .To respond to childish behaviour only serves to lower your own standards. Why would you do that ... why, why, why.
I'm very thrilled that Thunderbolt has expanded into other manufacturers this fast. We're getting closer to the future I foresee whereby everybody can carry around their own portable hard drive in their pockets and just hook up to computer stations. The stations will have a keyboard, screen, and mouse, or they will be touch screens. With the speed of Thunderbolt we'll be able to do work or play at full speed everywhere.
Right now almost all manufacturers have web pages with downloads for drivers for their screens and peripheral devices. With storage getting so cheap it will be easy for us to have many drivers available for the different peripheral devices no matter where we plug in. Apple already puts in a gazillion peripheral drivers with OS X.
IPhones are already portable computers but they still have limitations.
Imagine bringing your computer over to a friends house and just hooking it up with a Thunderbolt cable. Even if you're using Linux on his Microsoft machine your portable computer will work. Just boot from your portable hard drive and you're off. This can be done today but it's slow if you use USB 2 connectors.
Carrying around a terabyte SSD in my pocket that works everywhere will be awesome. Maybe in a few years iPod Touches will be capable of that. Thunderbolt is making the pocket computer reality today (well maybe later this year).
Sol, I don't know why you even bother to reply to DaHarder. A brief look at his posting history shows him to be a known troll who cares not for accuracy, intelligent posts .... but rather just wants to incite discord amongst other posters .To respond to childish behaviour only serves to lower your own standards. Why would you do that ... why, why, why.
You're right, I shouldn't engage him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels
I'm very thrilled that Thunderbolt has expanded into other manufacturers this fast. We're getting closer to the future I foresee whereby everybody can carry around their own portable hard drive in their pockets and just hook up to computer stations. The stations will have a keyboard, screen, and mouse, or they will be touch screens. With the speed of Thunderbolt we'll be able to do work or play at full speed everywhere.
Right now almost all manufacturers have web pages with downloads for drivers for their screens and peripheral devices. With storage getting so cheap it will be easy for us to have many drivers available for the different peripheral devices no matter where we plug in. Apple already puts in a gazillion peripheral drivers with OS X.
IPhones are already portable computers but they still have limitations.
Imagine bringing your computer over to a friends house and just hooking it up with a Thunderbolt cable. Even if you're using Linux on his Microsoft machine your portable computer will work. Just boot from your portable hard drive and you're off. This can be done today but it's slow if you use USB 2 connectors.
Carrying around a terabyte SSD in my pocket that works everywhere will be awesome. Maybe in a few years iPod Touches will be capable of that. Thunderbolt is making the pocket computer reality today (well maybe later this year).
You need more than hard drive to make it work. You'll have to have the Intel system at play. While current smartphones don'e have Thunderbolt support it could be possible in the future for a smartphone or tablet to be connected to desktop monitor, keyboard, and trackpad* to be use as the central processing unit in the future. This could even be an angle Intel could exploit over ARM.
FireWire was $1-5 per port, I believe. And look where that got them.
If Intel really wants this thing to catch on, they'll make it mandatory on all new chipsets.
What needs to be mandatory are:
1) Thunderbolt peripheral devices should have 2 connectors to make daisy chaining possible. Otherwise, many manufacturers will only provide a single connector just so they can say it has Thunderbolt. For example, the MOTU HDX-SDI appears to have only a single Thunderbolt connector.
2) Thunderbolt specs need to be very clear about display support. If the Thunderbolt spec says it supports Displayport, then Apple's Thunderbolt Display should have supported daisy chaining a monitor using a Mini Displayport adapter. Another issue is laptops and external monitors: Some laptops will support 2 Thunderbolt displays in addition to the laptop screen. Some laptops will support 2 Thunderbolt displays but the laptop screen will be turned off. Other laptops will only support one Thunderbolt display plus the laptop screen. Having to sift through knowledge base articles and fine print in order to know exactly what is supported can be frustrating. All companies, Apple included, will try to get away with as much as possible. Therefore, Thunderbolt specs and requirements need to be very clearly spelled out to prevent manufacturers from trying to cut corners. Otherwise, most manufacturers, Apple included, will simply implement the absolute minimum level of functionality just so they can claim to be compatible.
You need more than hard drive to make it work. You'll have to have the Intel system at play. While current smartphones don'e have Thunderbolt support it could be possible in the future for a smartphone or tablet to be connected to desktop monitor, keyboard, and trackpad* to be use as the central processing unit in the future. This could even be an angle Intel could exploit over ARM.
If Intel did it, it would be a first time; I'd be more inclined to think Apple would find a way to make this work effectively.
1) Thunderbolt peripheral devices should have 2 connectors to make daisy chaining possible. Otherwise, many manufacturers will only provide a single connector just so they can say it has Thunderbolt. For example, the MOTU HDX-SDI appears to have only a single Thunderbolt connector.
I could have sworn that was already required for legal licensing.
Quote:
2) Thunderbolt specs need to be very clear about display support. If the Thunderbolt spec says it supports Displayport, then Apple's Thunderbolt Display should have supported daisy chaining a monitor using a Mini Displayport adapter. Another issue is laptops and external monitors: Some laptops will support 2 Thunderbolt displays in addition to the laptop screen. Some laptops will support 2 Thunderbolt displays but the laptop screen will be turned off. Other laptops will only support one Thunderbolt display plus the laptop screen. Having to sift through knowledge base articles and fine print in order to know exactly what is supported can be frustrating.
Yep, agreed completely. We don't want Thunderbolt to become a pile of nonsense like Bluetooth 4.0 is.
There is only ONE connector. There's no "Intel standard" or "Apple standard". There is Thunderbolt.
Sony's crap shouldn't be considered part of the standard.
Oh, look at that. DIGITIMES. AppleInsider, I don't care what it is they're talking about; you really need to stop posting stuff from them on principle.
Didn't Sony try and fail with their own version of FireWire already?
To further grab defeat from the jaws of victory, I recommend their TB have a rootkit installed automatically as well.
The industry is rather confused, directionless, with the exception of Apple.
I think there is a misconception that consumers are not willing to pay extra for quality. The problem today is that there is a concern over the fact that even expensive products are being made poorly, again, with Apple being the exception.
Apple did not follow competitors down a path to ever cheaper and poorer laptops, hitting the bottom with the low-end netbooks. Yet Apple is making incredible amounts of money and enjoying outstanding sales. Consumers have spoken and what they're trying to tell manufacturers is that if there is perceived quality, it's OK to charge more for it. In addition to not allowing for a major drop in quality, Apple is one of the few manufacturers to get that consumers want simplicity. What they don't want is competing technologies and a ton of compatibility issues. Apple has decided to back Thunderbolt and that's the end of it right there. There is no ambiguity. If you buy an Apple, you're buying into Thunderbolt, no doubt about it. And the adoption came quickly and thoroughly. Apple hasn't just added Thunderbolt to a high-end product but put it out as new designs are introduced pretty much across the product range.
If the rest of the industry had as much sense as Apple does, Thunderbolt would be rolled out quickly and its adoption assured. Consumers really don't want confusing technology options and most don't even know, or want to know, what all the terminology means. They want to start using whatever they have purchased with minimal hassle. Seems like that's hard for the others to get a handle on.
For Apple competing against the rest of the industry is like shooting fish in a barrel.
The industry is rather confused, directionless, with the exception of Apple.
I think there is a misconception that consumers are not willing to pay extra for quality. The problem today is that there is a concern over the fact that even expensive products are being made poorly, again, with Apple being the exception.
Apple did not follow competitors down a path to ever cheaper and poorer laptops, hitting the bottom with the low-end netbooks. Yet Apple is making incredible amounts of money and enjoying outstanding sales. Consumers have spoken and what they're trying to tell manufacturers is that if there is perceived quality, it's OK to charge more for it. In addition to not allowing for a major drop in quality, Apple is one of the few manufacturers to get that consumers want simplicity. What they don't want is competing technologies and a ton of compatibility issues. Apple has decided to back Thunderbolt and that's the end of it right there. There is no ambiguity. If you buy an Apple, you're buying into Thunderbolt, no doubt about it. And the adoption came quickly and thoroughly. Apple hasn't just added Thunderbolt to a high-end product but put it out as new designs are introduced pretty much across the product range.
If the rest of the industry had as much sense as Apple does, Thunderbolt would be rolled out quickly and its adoption assured. Consumers really don't want confusing technology options and most don't even know, or want to know, what all the terminology means. They want to start using whatever they have purchased with minimal hassle. Seems like that's hard for the others to get a handle on.
For Apple competing against the rest of the industry is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Apple went with firewire 800 instead of going esata or usb 3.0
Luckily apple will get usb 3.0 with ivb which has native support.
Firewire was better then usb 2.0 but with esata thats a mute point and usb 3.0 has a wider support.
If new technology is not cost prohibitive for manufacture and consumers, it should be adopted if useful.
Apple added FW800 to Macs in 2003, before eSATA was finalized and before USB3.0 was even dreamed of so instead is not the appropriate term here.
eSATA is just SATA with the cable routed to the back panel of the computer, but back before eSATA became anything official.
The problem with TB is that it doesn't go far enough to be a complete "just one cable coming out of the computer" solution.
If the monitor has two USB ports (or better yet, BT4, wireless mouse and keyboards already paired to the monitor, erm somehow) and a GigE port, yes the monitor becomes a viable "dock" to the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro. It however is not a viable solution to Mac Pro's.
The Thunderbolt port is not a full PCIe 3 Slot. It can replace Firewire and USB, but it won't replace Ethernet. It also won't ever be used for external video cards as it lacks the bandwidth required to drive a single video card externally, and this is what I mean it doesn't go far enough.
Wouldn't it make a hell of a lot more sense if you could plug in a MacMini or MacBook Air, into a monitor that has a dedicated GPU on it? Daisy chain additional monitors with or without independent GPU's (A Radeon GPU can drive 6 monitors from one display port.)
If Thunderbolt could be used that way, that removes nearly all the reasons to have a Mac Pro. But i think we're still a few years off before this is viable.
Comments
True but I prefer their way of doing it. Thunderbolt is more of a data protocol than video so IMO, it would have made more sense to put Thunderbolt over the USB port and leave the display ports alone. This would mean having to attach another cable for a monitor dock though.
The advantage is that hard drive manufacturers can build them with just a single standard USB 3/Thunderbolt connection, which would be compatible with every machine.
AMD has started trying to confuse people too:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/computers/...underbolt/7388
They are using Mini-DP but it squeezes USB 3 on there instead of PCI and ends up reducing USB 3 bandwidth.
Now that PC manufacturers are on board with Thunderbolt, I imagine we will start to see a shift in the comments from the anti-Apple crowd. Oh, Thunderbolt was going to fail vs USB 3 was it? Oh, Thunderbolt is just Apple's proprietary crap like Firewire and USB 3 is so much better? Well, I guess we'll just wait and see - Intel is going to ship both together with Ivy Bridge.
(In case it hasn't been mentioned) remember that Intel tried to include TB over the USB Type-A port interface but was shot down even though they were the one who created USB in the first place.
While that would have been nice there is a benefit to this being on mDP. You will now get a lot more machines using the mDP port interface which will make it easier for Mac buyers. I am also glad that I won't have to give up any USB ports to use it. It's like an extra data port to use.
Also, I haven't connected an external monitor to my Mac in who knows how many years. I'm guessing that is common for notebook users. This makes a previously unused port potentially useful and doubly so if you do use an external monitor because your docking set up can now be only one plug instead of one for the display and one for TB over USB Type-A port interface if they had gone that route.
2) I want to hit you with a rolled up newspaper and say "No! No! No!" when you post stuff like that.... Bad, DaHarder, bad!
Sol, I don't know why you even bother to reply to DaHarder. A brief look at his posting history shows him to be a known troll who cares not for accuracy, intelligent posts .... but rather just wants to incite discord amongst other posters .To respond to childish behaviour only serves to lower your own standards. Why would you do that ... why, why, why.
Right now almost all manufacturers have web pages with downloads for drivers for their screens and peripheral devices. With storage getting so cheap it will be easy for us to have many drivers available for the different peripheral devices no matter where we plug in. Apple already puts in a gazillion peripheral drivers with OS X.
IPhones are already portable computers but they still have limitations.
Imagine bringing your computer over to a friends house and just hooking it up with a Thunderbolt cable. Even if you're using Linux on his Microsoft machine your portable computer will work. Just boot from your portable hard drive and you're off. This can be done today but it's slow if you use USB 2 connectors.
Carrying around a terabyte SSD in my pocket that works everywhere will be awesome. Maybe in a few years iPod Touches will be capable of that. Thunderbolt is making the pocket computer reality today (well maybe later this year).
Sol, I don't know why you even bother to reply to DaHarder. A brief look at his posting history shows him to be a known troll who cares not for accuracy, intelligent posts .... but rather just wants to incite discord amongst other posters .To respond to childish behaviour only serves to lower your own standards. Why would you do that ... why, why, why.
You're right, I shouldn't engage him.
I'm very thrilled that Thunderbolt has expanded into other manufacturers this fast. We're getting closer to the future I foresee whereby everybody can carry around their own portable hard drive in their pockets and just hook up to computer stations. The stations will have a keyboard, screen, and mouse, or they will be touch screens. With the speed of Thunderbolt we'll be able to do work or play at full speed everywhere.
Right now almost all manufacturers have web pages with downloads for drivers for their screens and peripheral devices. With storage getting so cheap it will be easy for us to have many drivers available for the different peripheral devices no matter where we plug in. Apple already puts in a gazillion peripheral drivers with OS X.
IPhones are already portable computers but they still have limitations.
Imagine bringing your computer over to a friends house and just hooking it up with a Thunderbolt cable. Even if you're using Linux on his Microsoft machine your portable computer will work. Just boot from your portable hard drive and you're off. This can be done today but it's slow if you use USB 2 connectors.
Carrying around a terabyte SSD in my pocket that works everywhere will be awesome. Maybe in a few years iPod Touches will be capable of that. Thunderbolt is making the pocket computer reality today (well maybe later this year).
You need more than hard drive to make it work. You'll have to have the Intel system at play. While current smartphones don'e have Thunderbolt support it could be possible in the future for a smartphone or tablet to be connected to desktop monitor, keyboard, and trackpad* to be use as the central processing unit in the future. This could even be an angle Intel could exploit over ARM.
A few cool Thunderbolt devices were shown at the NAMM show, which just got underway.
UA Apollo.
Apogee Symphony 64.
Do those devices have an extra Thunderbolt connector for daisy chaining?
FireWire was $1-5 per port, I believe. And look where that got them.
If Intel really wants this thing to catch on, they'll make it mandatory on all new chipsets.
What needs to be mandatory are:
1) Thunderbolt peripheral devices should have 2 connectors to make daisy chaining possible. Otherwise, many manufacturers will only provide a single connector just so they can say it has Thunderbolt. For example, the MOTU HDX-SDI appears to have only a single Thunderbolt connector.
http://www.motu.com/marketing/motu_p...di-thunderbolt
2) Thunderbolt specs need to be very clear about display support. If the Thunderbolt spec says it supports Displayport, then Apple's Thunderbolt Display should have supported daisy chaining a monitor using a Mini Displayport adapter. Another issue is laptops and external monitors: Some laptops will support 2 Thunderbolt displays in addition to the laptop screen. Some laptops will support 2 Thunderbolt displays but the laptop screen will be turned off. Other laptops will only support one Thunderbolt display plus the laptop screen. Having to sift through knowledge base articles and fine print in order to know exactly what is supported can be frustrating. All companies, Apple included, will try to get away with as much as possible. Therefore, Thunderbolt specs and requirements need to be very clearly spelled out to prevent manufacturers from trying to cut corners. Otherwise, most manufacturers, Apple included, will simply implement the absolute minimum level of functionality just so they can claim to be compatible.
You're right, I shouldn't engage him.
You need more than hard drive to make it work. You'll have to have the Intel system at play. While current smartphones don'e have Thunderbolt support it could be possible in the future for a smartphone or tablet to be connected to desktop monitor, keyboard, and trackpad* to be use as the central processing unit in the future. This could even be an angle Intel could exploit over ARM.
If Intel did it, it would be a first time; I'd be more inclined to think Apple would find a way to make this work effectively.
1) Thunderbolt peripheral devices should have 2 connectors to make daisy chaining possible. Otherwise, many manufacturers will only provide a single connector just so they can say it has Thunderbolt. For example, the MOTU HDX-SDI appears to have only a single Thunderbolt connector.
I could have sworn that was already required for legal licensing.
2) Thunderbolt specs need to be very clear about display support. If the Thunderbolt spec says it supports Displayport, then Apple's Thunderbolt Display should have supported daisy chaining a monitor using a Mini Displayport adapter. Another issue is laptops and external monitors: Some laptops will support 2 Thunderbolt displays in addition to the laptop screen. Some laptops will support 2 Thunderbolt displays but the laptop screen will be turned off. Other laptops will only support one Thunderbolt display plus the laptop screen. Having to sift through knowledge base articles and fine print in order to know exactly what is supported can be frustrating.
Yep, agreed completely. We don't want Thunderbolt to become a pile of nonsense like Bluetooth 4.0 is.
There is only ONE connector. There's no "Intel standard" or "Apple standard". There is Thunderbolt.
Sony's crap shouldn't be considered part of the standard.
Oh, look at that. DIGITIMES. AppleInsider, I don't care what it is they're talking about; you really need to stop posting stuff from them on principle.
Didn't Sony try and fail with their own version of FireWire already?
To further grab defeat from the jaws of victory, I recommend their TB have a rootkit installed automatically as well.
/s
Didn't Sony try and fail with their own version of FireWire already?
I don't believe so. As far as I know, Sony simply used standard 4-pin FireWire (and only EVER 4-pin FireWire) and just called it their own name.
"i.Link", I think it was. Yes, that dot is supposed to be there.
I think there is a misconception that consumers are not willing to pay extra for quality. The problem today is that there is a concern over the fact that even expensive products are being made poorly, again, with Apple being the exception.
Apple did not follow competitors down a path to ever cheaper and poorer laptops, hitting the bottom with the low-end netbooks. Yet Apple is making incredible amounts of money and enjoying outstanding sales. Consumers have spoken and what they're trying to tell manufacturers is that if there is perceived quality, it's OK to charge more for it. In addition to not allowing for a major drop in quality, Apple is one of the few manufacturers to get that consumers want simplicity. What they don't want is competing technologies and a ton of compatibility issues. Apple has decided to back Thunderbolt and that's the end of it right there. There is no ambiguity. If you buy an Apple, you're buying into Thunderbolt, no doubt about it. And the adoption came quickly and thoroughly. Apple hasn't just added Thunderbolt to a high-end product but put it out as new designs are introduced pretty much across the product range.
If the rest of the industry had as much sense as Apple does, Thunderbolt would be rolled out quickly and its adoption assured. Consumers really don't want confusing technology options and most don't even know, or want to know, what all the terminology means. They want to start using whatever they have purchased with minimal hassle. Seems like that's hard for the others to get a handle on.
For Apple competing against the rest of the industry is like shooting fish in a barrel.
The industry is rather confused, directionless, with the exception of Apple.
I think there is a misconception that consumers are not willing to pay extra for quality. The problem today is that there is a concern over the fact that even expensive products are being made poorly, again, with Apple being the exception.
Apple did not follow competitors down a path to ever cheaper and poorer laptops, hitting the bottom with the low-end netbooks. Yet Apple is making incredible amounts of money and enjoying outstanding sales. Consumers have spoken and what they're trying to tell manufacturers is that if there is perceived quality, it's OK to charge more for it. In addition to not allowing for a major drop in quality, Apple is one of the few manufacturers to get that consumers want simplicity. What they don't want is competing technologies and a ton of compatibility issues. Apple has decided to back Thunderbolt and that's the end of it right there. There is no ambiguity. If you buy an Apple, you're buying into Thunderbolt, no doubt about it. And the adoption came quickly and thoroughly. Apple hasn't just added Thunderbolt to a high-end product but put it out as new designs are introduced pretty much across the product range.
If the rest of the industry had as much sense as Apple does, Thunderbolt would be rolled out quickly and its adoption assured. Consumers really don't want confusing technology options and most don't even know, or want to know, what all the terminology means. They want to start using whatever they have purchased with minimal hassle. Seems like that's hard for the others to get a handle on.
For Apple competing against the rest of the industry is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Apple went with firewire 800 instead of going esata or usb 3.0
Luckily apple will get usb 3.0 with ivb which has native support.
Firewire was better then usb 2.0 but with esata thats a mute point and usb 3.0 has a wider support.
If new technology is not cost prohibitive for manufacture and consumers, it should be adopted if useful.
Apple went with firewire 800 instead of going esata or usb 3.0
Apple added FW800 to Macs in 2003, before eSATA was finalized and before USB3.0 was even dreamed of so instead is not the appropriate term here.
Apple added FW800 to Macs in 2003, before eSATA was finalized and before USB3.0 was even dreamed of so instead is not the appropriate term here.
eSATA is just SATA with the cable routed to the back panel of the computer, but back before eSATA became anything official.
The problem with TB is that it doesn't go far enough to be a complete "just one cable coming out of the computer" solution.
If the monitor has two USB ports (or better yet, BT4, wireless mouse and keyboards already paired to the monitor, erm somehow) and a GigE port, yes the monitor becomes a viable "dock" to the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro. It however is not a viable solution to Mac Pro's.
The Thunderbolt port is not a full PCIe 3 Slot. It can replace Firewire and USB, but it won't replace Ethernet. It also won't ever be used for external video cards as it lacks the bandwidth required to drive a single video card externally, and this is what I mean it doesn't go far enough.
Wouldn't it make a hell of a lot more sense if you could plug in a MacMini or MacBook Air, into a monitor that has a dedicated GPU on it? Daisy chain additional monitors with or without independent GPU's (A Radeon GPU can drive 6 monitors from one display port.)
If Thunderbolt could be used that way, that removes nearly all the reasons to have a Mac Pro. But i think we're still a few years off before this is viable.