Cut the bullshit. Jobs was not by any measure a despicable person, Gates is not a saint. As far as their business skills go, Gates was largely driven by his insecurities, and Jobs' genius was simply to make great products.
jobs was driven more by insecurities than Gates. Jobs was a very insecure person. insecurities are what drive most people and the most driven are the most insecure.
Whoops! Sorry. I meant to actually acknowledge that you hadn't brought Raskin into the conversation. That was meant for anyone else that happened to read Andy Hertzfeld's account of how Bill Atkinson came to Apple and I just wanted to stop it there.
My account comes from an interview with Atkinson and Hertzfeld by Grady Booch for the Computer History Museum in 2004. I figure that if you had both of them in the room at the same time corroborating and correcting each other then the info must be fairly solid.
When it comes to this history, it seems we keep running into people who have axes to grind, or their own prejudiced recollections of events. No surprise. There's plenty of success and failure to go around, and everyone wants credit for the former and no part of the other.
Now there's the old reliable method of retreating with head up (but looking in another direction). Of course, you know damn well I'm right on all counts.
No, you are wrong on all counts. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Quote:
Today marks the 50th anniversary of the Salk polio vaccine. Poliomyelitis, also known as infantile paralysis, used to be one of childhood's most feared diseases. A few years after Dr. Jonas Salk announced his vaccine on April 12, 1955, nearly every child in the U.S. was protected. Today polio has disappeared from the Americas, Europe and the Western Pacific and is nearly gone from the rest of the world.
A too little known part of this feat is the role played by Rotary, the international businessman's club, which 20 years ago adopted the goal of wiping out the disease. Rotary understood that medical breakthroughs are worthless unless people aren't afraid to immunize their children and efficient delivery systems exist to get the vaccine to them. And so it mobilized its members in 30,100 clubs in 166 countries to make it happen.
In 1985, when Rotary launched its eradication program, there were an estimated 350,000 new cases of polio in 125 countries. Last year, 1,263 cases were reported. More than one million Rotary members have volunteered their time or donated money to immunize two billion children in 122 countries. In 1988, Rotary money and its example were the catalyst for a global eradication drive joined by the World Health Organization, UNICEF and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. In 2000 Rotary teamed up with the United Nations Foundation to raise $100 million in private money for the program. By the time the world is certified as polio-free -- probably in 2008 -- Rotary will have contributed $600 million to its eradication effort.
I think the bottom line is that Gates and Jobs had a strong mutual respect and disrespect for each other.
Jobs was a genius who has truly left his mark on the world. But then so is Gates.
It's all very well accusing Gates of plagiarism, but wasn't it Jobs who said good artists copy, great artists steal? If anyone was guilt of theft, perhaps Jobs visit to Xerox park in the early days can be classified as that?
If we really want to compare Apple and Microsoft, then does anyone remember System 7? it was cool. It really set the bar. But it also crashed frequently and Apple's hardware wasn't as reliable as it has now become. The real problem with Apple back then, however, was price. A decent machine set you back around $3,000. It was priced way beyond the reach of most people, certainly in Europe.
Windows 95 was not as elegant or intuitive to use as System 7, but what it did was to democratise computing. Anyone could use a computer and the price of entry fell by 50%. My first computer was a Windows machine not a Mac, simply because of price.
Gates made the power of the PC accessible and relevant to ordinary people. That was a hell of an achievement.
Personally, I would like to see Gates return to computing and do something equally new and revolutionary. Whatever he does, it won't detract from Steve Jobs' amazing vision, contribution and the sheer passion of the man. Equally, Both Gates and Jobs are giants of modern computing. We owe them both a massive debt.
so true. if apple had its way then as it is trying to do now then NO ONE would have a graphical user interface and a mouse. steve thought everything was his. read the bio. search out comments by people who knew him. the man had severe issues and is well known for twisting reality to suit him. if he hadn't of tried to twist reality of his illness and sought immediate medical help he might have lived a little longer.
gates copied and gave us a different computer and only a moron or someone ignoring reality can claim you could mistake windows xx for os 7 (or whatever number it was at the time)
Wow.. Sorry im new to the board but the story was touching. Bill Gates really spent some time to write on a piece of paper for Steve Jobs (Most likely his main competitor). Even though he's busy, he still managed to give some time to write a letter for his competitor saying good things.
You know, I've read everything there is to read about Jobs, and watched everything there is to watch about him. I've read what people who worked closely with him, and knew him better than message-board experts said about him. Yet, after all that, the word 'despicable person' to summarize him is not what comes to mind. He made mistakes- yes. So do we all. But I think it says quite a lot about you, that you're willing to throw this kind of vicious and conclusive judgement about his character. Get some damn perspective. I've met many people in my life who I would say are 10x more 'despicable' than Jobs could ever hope to be. Yet I still wouldn't define any of them as a 'despicable person'. That term, for me, is reserves for the purveyors of the most heinous crimes. In my experience, the people that throw these extreme definitions among people, are the ones who are far, far worse. I know alot obout Jobs. I don't know anything about you. Yet simply from your post, and the fact you can call someone like Steve Jobs summarily a 'despicable person' - tells me that I doubt you have the greatest character in the world. It takes a certain kind of person to throw this vitriol and viciousness towards someone with so many qualities. Jobs comes nowhere near that definition if you look at his life as a whole.
The drive, determination and focus that geniuses have almost always results in other character defaults. If you look at Picasso, Einstein or John Lennon, as just three examples, they contributed greatly to the world, but they frequently treated other people like crap which may, at least in part, be due to impatience with us "mere mortals". Those who tend to lead more balanced lives tend not to be the people who change the world. Even Ghandi and Martin Luther King had issues with their personal relationships.
The relationship between Jobs and Gates reminds me a bit of the relationship between John Lennon and Paul McCartney. In their competitive angst, they took terrible swipes at each other -- Lennon's "How Do You Sleep?" being just one devastating example, but they claimed to have loved each other. But it was the competitive pressure between them that drove them both to great success.
I think Jobs had a lot of problems saying something nice about someone else if he didn't truly believe it - Jobs was known for saying exactly what he believed, regardless of the ramifications. Even when interviewed together, Jobs' praise for Gates was always qualified. In this particular case, Gates took the high road. I'm not sure Jobs would have done the same had the situation been reversed.
Comments
Cut the bullshit. Jobs was not by any measure a despicable person, Gates is not a saint. As far as their business skills go, Gates was largely driven by his insecurities, and Jobs' genius was simply to make great products.
jobs was driven more by insecurities than Gates. Jobs was a very insecure person. insecurities are what drive most people and the most driven are the most insecure.
Whoops! Sorry. I meant to actually acknowledge that you hadn't brought Raskin into the conversation. That was meant for anyone else that happened to read Andy Hertzfeld's account of how Bill Atkinson came to Apple and I just wanted to stop it there.
My account comes from an interview with Atkinson and Hertzfeld by Grady Booch for the Computer History Museum in 2004. I figure that if you had both of them in the room at the same time corroborating and correcting each other then the info must be fairly solid.
When it comes to this history, it seems we keep running into people who have axes to grind, or their own prejudiced recollections of events. No surprise. There's plenty of success and failure to go around, and everyone wants credit for the former and no part of the other.
Now there's the old reliable method of retreating with head up (but looking in another direction).
No, you are wrong on all counts. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Today marks the 50th anniversary of the Salk polio vaccine. Poliomyelitis, also known as infantile paralysis, used to be one of childhood's most feared diseases. A few years after Dr. Jonas Salk announced his vaccine on April 12, 1955, nearly every child in the U.S. was protected. Today polio has disappeared from the Americas, Europe and the Western Pacific and is nearly gone from the rest of the world.
A too little known part of this feat is the role played by Rotary, the international businessman's club, which 20 years ago adopted the goal of wiping out the disease. Rotary understood that medical breakthroughs are worthless unless people aren't afraid to immunize their children and efficient delivery systems exist to get the vaccine to them. And so it mobilized its members in 30,100 clubs in 166 countries to make it happen.
In 1985, when Rotary launched its eradication program, there were an estimated 350,000 new cases of polio in 125 countries. Last year, 1,263 cases were reported. More than one million Rotary members have volunteered their time or donated money to immunize two billion children in 122 countries. In 1988, Rotary money and its example were the catalyst for a global eradication drive joined by the World Health Organization, UNICEF and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. In 2000 Rotary teamed up with the United Nations Foundation to raise $100 million in private money for the program. By the time the world is certified as polio-free -- probably in 2008 -- Rotary will have contributed $600 million to its eradication effort.
Wall Street Journal, April 12, 2005
I think the bottom line is that Gates and Jobs had a strong mutual respect and disrespect for each other.
Jobs was a genius who has truly left his mark on the world. But then so is Gates.
It's all very well accusing Gates of plagiarism, but wasn't it Jobs who said good artists copy, great artists steal? If anyone was guilt of theft, perhaps Jobs visit to Xerox park in the early days can be classified as that?
If we really want to compare Apple and Microsoft, then does anyone remember System 7? it was cool. It really set the bar. But it also crashed frequently and Apple's hardware wasn't as reliable as it has now become. The real problem with Apple back then, however, was price. A decent machine set you back around $3,000. It was priced way beyond the reach of most people, certainly in Europe.
Windows 95 was not as elegant or intuitive to use as System 7, but what it did was to democratise computing. Anyone could use a computer and the price of entry fell by 50%. My first computer was a Windows machine not a Mac, simply because of price.
Gates made the power of the PC accessible and relevant to ordinary people. That was a hell of an achievement.
Personally, I would like to see Gates return to computing and do something equally new and revolutionary. Whatever he does, it won't detract from Steve Jobs' amazing vision, contribution and the sheer passion of the man. Equally, Both Gates and Jobs are giants of modern computing. We owe them both a massive debt.
so true. if apple had its way then as it is trying to do now then NO ONE would have a graphical user interface and a mouse. steve thought everything was his. read the bio. search out comments by people who knew him. the man had severe issues and is well known for twisting reality to suit him. if he hadn't of tried to twist reality of his illness and sought immediate medical help he might have lived a little longer.
gates copied and gave us a different computer and only a moron or someone ignoring reality can claim you could mistake windows xx for os 7 (or whatever number it was at the time)
I don't believe a word of this.
Since you don't, case closed.
You know, I've read everything there is to read about Jobs, and watched everything there is to watch about him. I've read what people who worked closely with him, and knew him better than message-board experts said about him. Yet, after all that, the word 'despicable person' to summarize him is not what comes to mind. He made mistakes- yes. So do we all. But I think it says quite a lot about you, that you're willing to throw this kind of vicious and conclusive judgement about his character. Get some damn perspective. I've met many people in my life who I would say are 10x more 'despicable' than Jobs could ever hope to be. Yet I still wouldn't define any of them as a 'despicable person'. That term, for me, is reserves for the purveyors of the most heinous crimes. In my experience, the people that throw these extreme definitions among people, are the ones who are far, far worse. I know alot obout Jobs. I don't know anything about you. Yet simply from your post, and the fact you can call someone like Steve Jobs summarily a 'despicable person' - tells me that I doubt you have the greatest character in the world. It takes a certain kind of person to throw this vitriol and viciousness towards someone with so many qualities. Jobs comes nowhere near that definition if you look at his life as a whole.
The drive, determination and focus that geniuses have almost always results in other character defaults. If you look at Picasso, Einstein or John Lennon, as just three examples, they contributed greatly to the world, but they frequently treated other people like crap which may, at least in part, be due to impatience with us "mere mortals". Those who tend to lead more balanced lives tend not to be the people who change the world. Even Ghandi and Martin Luther King had issues with their personal relationships.
The relationship between Jobs and Gates reminds me a bit of the relationship between John Lennon and Paul McCartney. In their competitive angst, they took terrible swipes at each other -- Lennon's "How Do You Sleep?" being just one devastating example, but they claimed to have loved each other. But it was the competitive pressure between them that drove them both to great success.
I think Jobs had a lot of problems saying something nice about someone else if he didn't truly believe it - Jobs was known for saying exactly what he believed, regardless of the ramifications. Even when interviewed together, Jobs' praise for Gates was always qualified. In this particular case, Gates took the high road. I'm not sure Jobs would have done the same had the situation been reversed.