It belongs to Apple and Apple is owned by its shareholders. It's Apple's management that get to decide how the $100 billion is spent.
I honestly think it beggars belief that you think it'd be wrong to spend 0.5% of that wealth to improve living conditions of those making Apple products.
No. More like 3.5 months. By my own more 'conservative' math they would have $100 left over for play, sending to the family back home etc even just doing 40 hours a month. If they kept all that money themselves in roughly half a year they could buy an iPad. Not the fanciest but they could. That of course assumes that the prices are the same in the US. They likely are not so it would probably be more like 8 months to cover that difference. Kids in the US save that long with allowance and such for the same goal
If they worked OT such as a 6th 8 hour day or even 12 hours all six days, that's another roughly $150 in the bank assuming they don't make a higher wage for those hours.
Foxconn should raise their pay to something decent
Define decent. Because right now they are making a wage that can provide them with a roof, food etc even if it's not a penthouse suite, gourmet meals and such
Quote:
Yes they are bored,
Boredom is not illegal. And not something an employer should have to fix. They aren't slaves, they can quit. Little tricks like moving them around the lines is costly as they would have to retrain everyone and then after a couple of days they would just be bored doing something new. Playing music etc can lead to issue because maybe not everyone likes that music and they are being forced to listen to something they detest not to mention possible safety hazard if they can't hear a warning bell going off on the other side of the room. and so on
Apple should open an office inside Foxconn with Apple & FLA staff permanently based there. That way they could walk around daily making sure everything is ok. Add a hotline for employees to call in confidence to report anything and Foxconn would not be able to get away with any abuses for long before Apple caught up with them. Much better than planned inspections where Foxconn can easily hide things.
And what about the other 75 clients. Should they put in offices and hotlines and police the factory as well.
So I guess SACOM is what a slacktivist joins when they can't figure out what to occupy? I think the people with the most to say in this matter are the Chinese workers, and judging by the turnout for new hires, they don't seem to mind on the whole. With as many employees as Foxconn has, it would be almost impossible not to find some disgruntled employees to talk to SACOM. If rapid changes cause some workers to lose their jobs because their job got outsourced or replaced by automation, how does this help the individual? Change will come, but it must evolve at its own rate. All Apple owes the worker is to not stand in the way of this evolution, and it appears to me that Apple is trying to facilitate change.
This seems to be the same thing we've seen in history books with so many other countries industrializing... except with cameras.
The other key difference is that during the industrialisation of "the west", there weren't any nations who had already been through the process.
I maintain that Apple could spend an insignificant (to them) sum of money and substantially improve the living conditions (and by this I specifically mean living quarters so perhaps I should adopt that phrase) of the human beings who assemble their products.
and by this I specifically mean living quarters so perhaps I should adopt that phrase) of the human beings who assemble their products.
So you have been in the quarters they live in. That's how you know how awful they are. And now much everyone hates them. Because you talked to all those poor unfortunate workers as well.
From what we have been shown they aren't posh but they aren't dung heaps either. Nor are people forced to live there. They can get another place if they want to spend the money. Most of them choose not to.
So you have been in the quarters they live in. That's how you know how awful they are.
I don't have to have seen them. We know that the living quarters consist of shared dormitories with very little personal space and shared washing facilities. I believe that humans working for an entity that has the means to ensure that the living quarters are substantially better, shouldn't have to live in those conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
They can get another place if they want to spend the money. Most of them choose not to.
Probably because they aren't paid enough to do that.
So you have been in the quarters they live in. That's how you know how awful they are. And now much everyone hates them. Because you talked to all those poor unfortunate workers as well.
From what we have been shown they aren't posh but they aren't dung heaps either. Nor are people forced to live there. They can get another place if they want to spend the money. Most of them choose not to.
We've seen them in the video. They are awful. Some things we can easily say transcend culture and having 8 people in a small room with no chance for privacy does take its psychological toll. They are human, right?
For starters, I think that reducing the housing to half, but still having a shared bathroom between 2 quarters would be more effective. I'd also allow for more individuality within the dorms. We saw it with hairstyles but I didn't see it with anything else.
The issue I saw with the assembly line and white, dust free gowns and hats wasn't about a hardship in labor that other youths aren't enduring but psychological stress from not having an outlet to forge or express your own individuality in some way.
It belongs to Apple and Apple is owned by its shareholders. It's Apple's management that get to decide how the $100 billion is spent.
I honestly think it beggars belief that you think it'd be wrong to spend 0.5% of that wealth to improve living conditions of those making Apple products.
Just as I honestly think it beggars believe that you think that it's Apple's job to rectify all the world's wrongs.
Apple has created hundreds of thousands of jobs in China - jobs that apparently pay considerably more than the alternatives. They have engaged in free market purchasing - they worked out a price that Foxconn was apparently quite willing to do the work for. Foxconn similarly has a free market arrangement with its employees. They offer a wage and the employees chose to work for them. if the employees did not think it was a good deal, they could go elsewhere.
I'm just curious. Where do you draw the line? After all, by your logic, Apple has lots of money. They should:
- Fix the working conditions at all of their suppliers. They should pay more money to Samsung so that Samsung can pay more to its employees, for example.
- Fix the poor food quality problems in China. As has been argued here, food in China is not readily available with the same nutritional content as ours. Apple should set up its own farms and give the food away. They can afford it.
- Health care in China is atrocious. Apple should build hospitals and offer free health care.
- Pollution in China is worse than in any city I've seen in the U.S. Apple should buy electric cars for everyone.
And so on.
- Heck, even in the U.S., our working conditions are worse than some other countries. Apple should offer a year of paid maternity leave and should limit its employees to 28 hours per week globally (to match Netherlands' work week) and provide a guaranteed 44 days off per year to match Finland).
After all, Apple can afford to do those things, so why shouldn't they? Right?
We've seen them in the video. They are awful. Some things we can easily say transcend culture and having 8 people in a small room with no chance for privacy does take its psychological toll. They are human, right?
For starters, I think that reducing the housing to half, but still having a shared bathroom between 2 quarters would be more effective. I'd also allow for more individuality within the dorms. We saw it with hairstyles but I didn't see it with anything else.
Once again, you're imposing your culture on another country which has a different culture. The concept of individuality in China is far different than ours. To a very large degree, enforcing individuality can be painful for people who grew up in a conformist culture.
Just as I honestly think it beggars believe that you think that it's Apple's job to rectify all the world's wrongs.
No, I do not believe it's Apple's job to rectify all the world's wrongs. I believe that Apple has the means to improve the living standards of the human beings who assemble Apple products, and should cough up. They'd still have over $99 billion left.
Once again, you're imposing your culture on another country which has a different culture. The concept of individuality in China is far different than ours. To a very large degree, enforcing individuality can be painful for people who grew up in a conformist culture.
The concept is different, but not the existence of. I made no mention of what culture should be applied or what cultures held more values over others. I clearly referred only to humanity. I also noted that it would help make the "people" more content which would reduce suicides.
The concept is different, but not the existence of. I made no mention of what culture should be applied or what cultures held more values over others. I clearly referred only to humanity. I also noted that it would help make the "people" more content which would reduce suicides.
Sometimes separating people into smaller groups can cause suicides.
[I remember when a lot of Vietnamese people were emigrating to Canada in the mid to late 70s. I made friends with quite a few of the newcomers and was shocked to find them living 4 to 8 people to a room. When I mentioned this to them they were actually quite baffled that it would bother me so much. Later, though, as they became westernized, they, of course, separated into their own homes, but, there again, many more family members lived in the home then we, westerners, would find normal.]
If some employees are yapping, Foxconn clearly hid the wrong ones.
The whole thing still smells dubious - so many employees ostensibly abused there. Yet the best investigative teams in the world have produced so few first hand statements?
After all, Apple can afford to do those things, so why shouldn't they? Right?
No, Apple couldn't afford to do everything you listed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
I'm just curious. Where do you draw the line?
OK, I'll play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
- Fix the working conditions at all of their suppliers. They should pay more money to Samsung so that Samsung can pay more to its employees, for example.
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
- Fix the poor food quality problems in China. As has been argued here, food in China is not readily available with the same nutritional content as ours. Apple should set up its own farms and give the food away. They can afford it.
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
- Health care in China is atrocious. Apple should build hospitals and offer free health care.
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
- Pollution in China is worse than in any city I've seen in the U.S. Apple should buy electric cars for everyone.
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Apple should offer a year of paid maternity leave
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
and should limit its employees to 28 hours per week globally (to match Netherlands' work week) and provide a guaranteed 44 days off per year to match Finland).
No, those both seem excessive but I'm guessing that I would think they should provide more paid holiday than they do. Paid holiday allowance in the U.S. sucks.
No, I do not believe it's Apple's job to rectify all the world's wrongs. I believe that Apple has the means to improve the living standards of the human beings who assemble Apple products, and should cough up. They'd still have over $99 billion left.
Unfortunately there has to be a way Apple can profit for it to make sense. However, I that is easily done by allowing the workers happier which will increase productivity, longer employment per individual, and result in increase goodwill among buyers. Their "green" initiative falls into the latter category.
I don't agree with Apple doing it just because they have the money. The Chinese government has a lot more money so why are we expecting them to better there way of life?
1. 1st of all, Bill Weir EXPLICITLY states (around the 4 min mark) that there's workers 17 yrs old, etc. Not exactly a deep, dark secret that they attempted to hide from knowledge.
2. I like how the goalposts are constantly moved. 13 has now become 16. Do I consider 16 an under-age worker? No, I don't.
3. When you want to discover potential abuses, it helps to look at motivation and intent. What specific motivation does Foxconn have to purposely hire underage workers? There are tens of thousands dying to work @ Foxconn, as we;ve seen from the footage. Foxconn isn't exactly desperately looking for underage employees to fill positions.
4. Would it have been in Foxconn's best interest to 'clean-house' a bit and move the younger employees (16-17) away from the section they were going to cover and interview people in? Sure. Any other company would have done the same. I would also try to show my company in the best light if it was being reported on, and if the stakes were so high. This does not equate to 'hiding all their 13 yr old slave workers in the dungeons', as some have implied through conspiracy theories.
Honestly, it seems some are chomping at the bit to imagine up sinister conspiracy theories in order to get some time in the spotlight and exploit the issue. We've seen no evidence that there's deep, dark secrets being hidden, and Apple/Foxconn has been more transparent than I would ever have expected them to. What we saw it probably very close to the daily reality of the place, as it is in thousands of other assembly lines. Might infractions be exposed in the future with all these audits? I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case, as we're talking about a company that employs hundreds of thousands of people. The important thing is to try and stay sane and take everything into context. Nothing I've seen 'horrifies' me, but maybe it's because I wasn't ignorant enough not to expect these exact scenes. I mean honestly- I have no idea of what some people expected an assembly line in China to look line, if they were shocked or horrified by this. I'd chalk it up to extreme ignorance, and the opinion of someone with this level of grotesque ignorance on the matter, completely disconnected from reality, would not interest me in the least.
Comments
And to whom do you think that money belongs?
It belongs to Apple and Apple is owned by its shareholders. It's Apple's management that get to decide how the $100 billion is spent.
I honestly think it beggars belief that you think it'd be wrong to spend 0.5% of that wealth to improve living conditions of those making Apple products.
oops. Sorry.
So you are suggesting that perhaps there is a Chinese government conspiracy that prevents Foxconn improving the living conditions of its workers?
I wouldn't say it's a conspiracy. This is standard business practice all over the world.
$142? Only 3.5 years to buy an iPad? Really?
No. More like 3.5 months. By my own more 'conservative' math they would have $100 left over for play, sending to the family back home etc even just doing 40 hours a month. If they kept all that money themselves in roughly half a year they could buy an iPad. Not the fanciest but they could. That of course assumes that the prices are the same in the US. They likely are not so it would probably be more like 8 months to cover that difference. Kids in the US save that long with allowance and such for the same goal
If they worked OT such as a 6th 8 hour day or even 12 hours all six days, that's another roughly $150 in the bank assuming they don't make a higher wage for those hours.
Foxconn should raise their pay to something decent
Define decent. Because right now they are making a wage that can provide them with a roof, food etc even if it's not a penthouse suite, gourmet meals and such
Yes they are bored,
Boredom is not illegal. And not something an employer should have to fix. They aren't slaves, they can quit. Little tricks like moving them around the lines is costly as they would have to retrain everyone and then after a couple of days they would just be bored doing something new. Playing music etc can lead to issue because maybe not everyone likes that music and they are being forced to listen to something they detest not to mention possible safety hazard if they can't hear a warning bell going off on the other side of the room. and so on
Apple should open an office inside Foxconn with Apple & FLA staff permanently based there. That way they could walk around daily making sure everything is ok. Add a hotline for employees to call in confidence to report anything and Foxconn would not be able to get away with any abuses for long before Apple caught up with them. Much better than planned inspections where Foxconn can easily hide things.
And what about the other 75 clients. Should they put in offices and hotlines and police the factory as well.
This seems to be the same thing we've seen in history books with so many other countries industrializing... except with cameras.
The other key difference is that during the industrialisation of "the west", there weren't any nations who had already been through the process.
I maintain that Apple could spend an insignificant (to them) sum of money and substantially improve the living conditions (and by this I specifically mean living quarters so perhaps I should adopt that phrase) of the human beings who assemble their products.
and by this I specifically mean living quarters so perhaps I should adopt that phrase) of the human beings who assemble their products.
So you have been in the quarters they live in. That's how you know how awful they are. And now much everyone hates them. Because you talked to all those poor unfortunate workers as well.
From what we have been shown they aren't posh but they aren't dung heaps either. Nor are people forced to live there. They can get another place if they want to spend the money. Most of them choose not to.
So you have been in the quarters they live in. That's how you know how awful they are.
I don't have to have seen them. We know that the living quarters consist of shared dormitories with very little personal space and shared washing facilities. I believe that humans working for an entity that has the means to ensure that the living quarters are substantially better, shouldn't have to live in those conditions.
They can get another place if they want to spend the money. Most of them choose not to.
Probably because they aren't paid enough to do that.
So you have been in the quarters they live in. That's how you know how awful they are. And now much everyone hates them. Because you talked to all those poor unfortunate workers as well.
From what we have been shown they aren't posh but they aren't dung heaps either. Nor are people forced to live there. They can get another place if they want to spend the money. Most of them choose not to.
We've seen them in the video. They are awful. Some things we can easily say transcend culture and having 8 people in a small room with no chance for privacy does take its psychological toll. They are human, right?
For starters, I think that reducing the housing to half, but still having a shared bathroom between 2 quarters would be more effective. I'd also allow for more individuality within the dorms. We saw it with hairstyles but I didn't see it with anything else.
The issue I saw with the assembly line and white, dust free gowns and hats wasn't about a hardship in labor that other youths aren't enduring but psychological stress from not having an outlet to forge or express your own individuality in some way.
It belongs to Apple and Apple is owned by its shareholders. It's Apple's management that get to decide how the $100 billion is spent.
I honestly think it beggars belief that you think it'd be wrong to spend 0.5% of that wealth to improve living conditions of those making Apple products.
Just as I honestly think it beggars believe that you think that it's Apple's job to rectify all the world's wrongs.
Apple has created hundreds of thousands of jobs in China - jobs that apparently pay considerably more than the alternatives. They have engaged in free market purchasing - they worked out a price that Foxconn was apparently quite willing to do the work for. Foxconn similarly has a free market arrangement with its employees. They offer a wage and the employees chose to work for them. if the employees did not think it was a good deal, they could go elsewhere.
I'm just curious. Where do you draw the line? After all, by your logic, Apple has lots of money. They should:
- Fix the working conditions at all of their suppliers. They should pay more money to Samsung so that Samsung can pay more to its employees, for example.
- Fix the poor food quality problems in China. As has been argued here, food in China is not readily available with the same nutritional content as ours. Apple should set up its own farms and give the food away. They can afford it.
- Health care in China is atrocious. Apple should build hospitals and offer free health care.
- Pollution in China is worse than in any city I've seen in the U.S. Apple should buy electric cars for everyone.
And so on.
- Heck, even in the U.S., our working conditions are worse than some other countries. Apple should offer a year of paid maternity leave and should limit its employees to 28 hours per week globally (to match Netherlands' work week) and provide a guaranteed 44 days off per year to match Finland).
After all, Apple can afford to do those things, so why shouldn't they? Right?
We've seen them in the video. They are awful. Some things we can easily say transcend culture and having 8 people in a small room with no chance for privacy does take its psychological toll. They are human, right?
For starters, I think that reducing the housing to half, but still having a shared bathroom between 2 quarters would be more effective. I'd also allow for more individuality within the dorms. We saw it with hairstyles but I didn't see it with anything else.
Once again, you're imposing your culture on another country which has a different culture. The concept of individuality in China is far different than ours. To a very large degree, enforcing individuality can be painful for people who grew up in a conformist culture.
Just as I honestly think it beggars believe that you think that it's Apple's job to rectify all the world's wrongs.
No, I do not believe it's Apple's job to rectify all the world's wrongs. I believe that Apple has the means to improve the living standards of the human beings who assemble Apple products, and should cough up. They'd still have over $99 billion left.
Once again, you're imposing your culture on another country which has a different culture. The concept of individuality in China is far different than ours. To a very large degree, enforcing individuality can be painful for people who grew up in a conformist culture.
The concept is different, but not the existence of. I made no mention of what culture should be applied or what cultures held more values over others. I clearly referred only to humanity. I also noted that it would help make the "people" more content which would reduce suicides.
The concept is different, but not the existence of. I made no mention of what culture should be applied or what cultures held more values over others. I clearly referred only to humanity. I also noted that it would help make the "people" more content which would reduce suicides.
Sometimes separating people into smaller groups can cause suicides.
[I remember when a lot of Vietnamese people were emigrating to Canada in the mid to late 70s. I made friends with quite a few of the newcomers and was shocked to find them living 4 to 8 people to a room. When I mentioned this to them they were actually quite baffled that it would bother me so much. Later, though, as they became westernized, they, of course, separated into their own homes, but, there again, many more family members lived in the home then we, westerners, would find normal.]
The whole thing still smells dubious - so many employees ostensibly abused there. Yet the best investigative teams in the world have produced so few first hand statements?
Hmmm ....
After all, Apple can afford to do those things, so why shouldn't they? Right?
No, Apple couldn't afford to do everything you listed.
I'm just curious. Where do you draw the line?
OK, I'll play.
- Fix the working conditions at all of their suppliers. They should pay more money to Samsung so that Samsung can pay more to its employees, for example.
No.
- Fix the poor food quality problems in China. As has been argued here, food in China is not readily available with the same nutritional content as ours. Apple should set up its own farms and give the food away. They can afford it.
No.
- Health care in China is atrocious. Apple should build hospitals and offer free health care.
No.
- Pollution in China is worse than in any city I've seen in the U.S. Apple should buy electric cars for everyone.
No.
Apple should offer a year of paid maternity leave
Yes
and should limit its employees to 28 hours per week globally (to match Netherlands' work week) and provide a guaranteed 44 days off per year to match Finland).
No, those both seem excessive but I'm guessing that I would think they should provide more paid holiday than they do. Paid holiday allowance in the U.S. sucks.
Brian who?
LOL, haha
No, I do not believe it's Apple's job to rectify all the world's wrongs. I believe that Apple has the means to improve the living standards of the human beings who assemble Apple products, and should cough up. They'd still have over $99 billion left.
Unfortunately there has to be a way Apple can profit for it to make sense. However, I that is easily done by allowing the workers happier which will increase productivity, longer employment per individual, and result in increase goodwill among buyers. Their "green" initiative falls into the latter category.
I don't agree with Apple doing it just because they have the money. The Chinese government has a lot more money so why are we expecting them to better there way of life?
1. 1st of all, Bill Weir EXPLICITLY states (around the 4 min mark) that there's workers 17 yrs old, etc. Not exactly a deep, dark secret that they attempted to hide from knowledge.
2. I like how the goalposts are constantly moved. 13 has now become 16. Do I consider 16 an under-age worker? No, I don't.
3. When you want to discover potential abuses, it helps to look at motivation and intent. What specific motivation does Foxconn have to purposely hire underage workers? There are tens of thousands dying to work @ Foxconn, as we;ve seen from the footage. Foxconn isn't exactly desperately looking for underage employees to fill positions.
4. Would it have been in Foxconn's best interest to 'clean-house' a bit and move the younger employees (16-17) away from the section they were going to cover and interview people in? Sure. Any other company would have done the same. I would also try to show my company in the best light if it was being reported on, and if the stakes were so high. This does not equate to 'hiding all their 13 yr old slave workers in the dungeons', as some have implied through conspiracy theories.
Honestly, it seems some are chomping at the bit to imagine up sinister conspiracy theories in order to get some time in the spotlight and exploit the issue. We've seen no evidence that there's deep, dark secrets being hidden, and Apple/Foxconn has been more transparent than I would ever have expected them to. What we saw it probably very close to the daily reality of the place, as it is in thousands of other assembly lines. Might infractions be exposed in the future with all these audits? I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case, as we're talking about a company that employs hundreds of thousands of people. The important thing is to try and stay sane and take everything into context. Nothing I've seen 'horrifies' me, but maybe it's because I wasn't ignorant enough not to expect these exact scenes. I mean honestly- I have no idea of what some people expected an assembly line in China to look line, if they were shocked or horrified by this. I'd chalk it up to extreme ignorance, and the opinion of someone with this level of grotesque ignorance on the matter, completely disconnected from reality, would not interest me in the least.