20% of non-iPad buyers would consider a $399 entry-level iPad 2

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  • Reply 41 of 96
    MacProMacPro Posts: 18,142member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    Apple is the Ferrari of telephones. And Ferrari does NOT want their products in too many hands, because then it ceases to be indicative of membership in an exclusive little club.



    Ha ha good one ... You always come out with such tripe but it's always amusing, keep it up
  • Reply 42 of 96
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    You forgot iCloud. Local storage is no longer necessary.



    Like fun.
  • Reply 43 of 96
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post


    I don't know why everyone concedes this point. Out of a relatively small sample at my workplace, I know several people who bought Kindles when they wanted iPads. They would not have bought a PlayBook or an Android tablet or even a Nook at any price. Had there not been the Fire, they would have gotten iPads. I cannot imagine that their numbers are insignificant outside of my workplace.

    I'm not saying Apple has to match their prices or (God forbid) sell at a loss, but I am absoutely positive that the Fire cost Apple sales.



    Yes, but what do those people think of those Kindles after they've owned them for 6 months and compared them to their friends'/coworkers' iPads?



    Sure, Fires are great for video watching and book reading--nice and compact--but you can't do productivity apps well because the screen is too small. Or, at least, you can't use it almost as your main machine the way you can with an iPad.



    If Fire owners want to do much more than consume media on their Fires (and I'm guessing the I-got-this-Fire-instead-of-an-iPad-because-it's-cheaper owners are the most likely to), then they will tire of the Fire (and any 7" tablet) soon enough.
  • Reply 44 of 96
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    You forgot iCloud. Local storage is no longer necessary.



    It's possible to have textbooks in the cloud that would send a page (or set of pages) at a time but then you'll need an internet connection and will suffer lag. These make this less than ideal.



    Also, iCloud is not a replacement for local storage!!!
  • Reply 45 of 96
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


    Why do they have to be stripped down?



    Worst case they are identical i.e. no interaction and with the same text and images (given text books are all in digital format these days for printing so that's a no brainer).



    The next step is being almost the same only they get better with interaction and movies.



    The last step is the really cool use of iBook's full potential which will come over time.



    The great thing is even the worst case, (that being nothing more than a PDF would be made of the book) is that unlike a PDF it can be updated via the iBook Store. Just imagine a book automatically getting new data added is it comes known ... a country changes its name and your map updates! Automatic notes pointing out recent changes etc. It is Harry Potter magic for real.



    This is a major improvement on printed books and if you can't see that then I have to call Luddite on you



    I'm up to my eyeballs in this digital textbook adventure. There are no answers at this time to the size of the books. If you start buying single chapters and swapping them out you lose the ability to review earlier chapters, cause a file management nightmare, and where do you put those swapped out chapters for use next year?



    Downloading the books can take days even on a reasonably fast connection. Then multiply that by 100s of iPads at the beginning of each semester. The additional cost of IT staff and infrastructure could potentially cancel out the savings gained by not using printed books.



    Modern science and social studies textbooks are very elaborate. We've been working extremely hard on the logistics and work flow design for our iBooks Author project, since shortly after the announcement. At this point there are a lot more questions than answers.



    The files are too damn big!



    @Soli

    There are no in app purchases in iBooks.
  • Reply 46 of 96
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by paxman View Post


    There, fixed that for you...



    Back to the thread....



    Useless statistic. What people say they will do is always very different from what they do do. Ask me if I will upgrade my iMac this year and I am sure to tell you yes... that is my wish and intention and definitely my need. But ask me again at year's end if I did and you will in all likelihood get a different answer.





    I THINK we've got the answer fellas!



    DON'T ever ask paxman!
  • Reply 47 of 96
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


    I don't disagree but it just isn't Apple to retain an older product at a lower price (other for education or limited time only) when they have a newer one at the same price they used to sell the older one



    ... except they're doing exactly that for the last 2 generations of the iPhone.



    So how can you say that?
  • Reply 48 of 96
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Check out the 9 paid books sometime. I think the Apple Stores might have some installed as demos. They are as good as printed material but offer interactive functions that add a level of learning not previously had. Something a teacher might take several minutes to explain can be understand quickly with the ability to see a model in 3D or watch how its motion works.



    You guys are jumping to an extreme. There is no all or nothing scenario to worry about. You could have just one course with a digital textbook and have printed material for your other courses. Or publishers could have books that are exactly the same (page for page, except for minor corrections) so that students can choose the option that works best for them. It's silly to say that it will 10GB per book and to use one means you have to use 8 books. That's not how technology progresses.



    Well that is not how it works with unified school districts in California. The books we are working on need to be exactly equivalent in every aspect to the printed ones in order to qualify. It is 10 lbs. of potatoes in a 5 lb sack.
  • Reply 49 of 96
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    I'm up to my eyeballs in this digital textbook adventure. There are no answers at this time to the size of the books. If you start buying single chapters and swapping them out you lose the ability to review earlier chapters, cause a file management nightmare, and where do you put those swapped out chapters for use next year?



    Downloading the books can take days even on a reasonably fast connection. Then multiply that by 100s of iPads at the beginning of each semester. The additional cost of IT staff and infrastructure could potentially cancel out the savings gained by not using printed books.



    Modern science and social studies textbooks are very elaborate. We've been working extremely hard on the logistics and work flow design for our iBooks Author project, since shortly after the announcement. At this point there are a lot more questions than answers.



    The files are too damn big!



    These are certainly concerns for schools and publishers wanting to embrace digital content but they are no different than other digital hurdles they've faced. Like I said before they will face and conquer these problems one-by-one. You and others are coming across as if you think the entire concept of a digital textbook will never work because paper is inherently better in every way. That simply isn't true. You also need to look at this market. Apple only released iBooks Author and textbooks, what, 5 weeks ago? Go back to 5 weeks after the iPod was announced. That had less chance of surviving.



    Look at where the puck is going, not where it's at.



    Quote:

    @Soli

    There are no in app purchases in iBooks.



    As of now that is the case.
  • Reply 50 of 96
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    I'm up to my eyeballs in this digital textbook adventure. There are no answers at this time to the size of the books. If you start buying single chapters and swapping them out you lose the ability to review earlier chapters, cause a file management nightmare, and where do you put those swapped out chapters for use next year?



    Downloading the books can take days even on a reasonably fast connection. Then multiply that by 100s of iPads at the beginning of each semester. The additional cost of IT staff and infrastructure could potentially cancel out the savings gained by not using printed books.



    Modern science and social studies textbooks are very elaborate. We've been working extremely hard on the logistics and work flow design for our iBooks Author project, since shortly after the announcement. At this point there are a lot more questions than answers.



    The files are too damn big!



    @Soli

    There are no in app purchases in iBooks.



    What is an iBook? It's just a text file with a bunch of videos, pictures, audio, and code. What does that sound like? A web page. So how do web pages handle this (or even iApps)? They download the text first, then the images, then download the video and audio only as users access it.



    iBooks could use the same model. It could be a little smarter--say, download the video for the current chapter into a cache, and purge the cache 30 days after it's last accessed.



    Think outside the box.
  • Reply 51 of 96
    mknoppmknopp Posts: 257member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    What 8 courses do students take in one HS semester that will require textbooks (not rhetorical, I want them named)?



    The courses, and keep in mind that this is only a sample and not indicative of every student's schedule.



    1) English (Possible the class with the smallest book storage requirements since they would be predominately text based. Even the interactive parts.)

    2) Math (An excellent candidate for a ton of coding, 3D models, movies, and graphics to cover the interactive parts of the subject. Some courses like Geometry would require more than say Algebra 1.)

    3) History (Add in audio, video, and 3D models and these could balloon very quickly.)

    4) Science (Likely the course with the largest books considering how much data intensive extras are in the science fields.)

    5) Economics (Another course where I don't see the books being that large.)

    6) Foreign Language (Another one that would very quickly balloon with large amounts of audio and video.)

    7) Fine Arts (Think high resolution images and videos and audio of artist and these could again get rather large.)

    8) Health/PE (Okay, this one might not have much in the way of texts, but there is a health text usually and it could be rather large for the same reasons that a biology text would be. Think of the multiple graphics and 3D models of the human body along with interactive videos of exercise and dietary concerns.)



    Of course, a usual schedule would likely include a study hall period so many student might only need seven courses a semester. But, there are typically eight periods in a semester for a secondary level student and it is very likely that they could need a text for each period.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    They certainly aren't on the iBookstore.



    Not yet, and possibly never. However, you are missing what Apple did that is really the major game changer here. Many of the educators that I have talked to about moving to tablets aren't really that excited about the ability to get eTextbooks from the publishers. They were very excited about the release of iBooks Author though because it allows them to make their own textbooks for their students. Most teachers have collected numerous sources and materials over the years. the prospect for them to combine them into a text that is tailored for their students in their class in their region is what excites them. They are excited about the fact that they can emphasize what they want and skip what they don't want for their students instead of having to accept whatever California and Texas want, since as the two largest education markets are basically what all textbook publishers write their textbooks for.



    So, whether the iBookstore ever offers these textbooks is really irrelevant. And actually goes more to support my point that education tablets will need more storage not less as the average teacher is not likely to make their textbooks as space efficient as a major publisher, for several reasons.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Assuming you are correct there are 8 courses per semester that require large digital textbooks even if they all 1.5GB that will be 12GB, which is well within the acceptable range.



    Acceptable? You are making this judgement based on what?



    A large part of why the school officials that I have talked to are looking at tablets, or have chosen tablets is not just to turn them into eReaders. They want their students to have scheduling capabilities, web access when needed, one of the art teachers was very excited about the numerous art programs available for the iPad, the chemistry teacher loved the Elements app (which is rather large in its own right), the music teacher wanted the students to use GarageBand, and so on and so forth. The textbook is just the base of what educators are wanting to do with tablets. Anybody who is looking at tablets as eReaders only is completely missing the point and potential of tablets in education. To me, 16GB is a crippling, bare minimum.



    [QUOTE=SolipsismX;2059237]How will Apple do 128GB? Smaller lithograph with slower speeds, less write cycles and with greater cost -or- doubling up the number of NAND chips?[/qoute]



    I don't know and honestly, I don't care. I cannot tell you how they made their last processor faster or more efficient. I am not an electrical engineer and to make this statement is more than disingenuous. You are basically claiming that nobody can make any claim here unless they can what? Produce a white paper explaining how the Apple engineers would do something? Maybe those millions that they spent on flash development engineers gives them some insight that neither I, nor you have.



    Of course, any answer that I give to your strawman setup is just going to open up an opening so I am going to give none and so that I don't care how they do it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    The difference between iOS for the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 have shown that rendering for 2x resolution isn't a huge concern for OS and app sizes.



    This is moot.



    The scale of increase is way beyond what the iPhone went through and you are neglecting that we are also going to have to consider the rumor that Apple will be moving to 1080p video.



    Where the increased resolution of graphics and especially video will add up very quickly.
  • Reply 52 of 96
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Look at where the puke is going, not where it's at.



    Good one!



    Don't get me wrong I want iBooks Author to succeed because I have a lot invested in it. It is one thing to imagine the big picture in all its glory, but another thing altogether when you are assigned the job of actually building it, down at the nuts and bolts level, which is where I am.
  • Reply 53 of 96
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


    Ha ha good one ... You always come out with such tripe but it's always amusing, keep it up



    Thanks. I like to make serious points in an entertaining manner.
  • Reply 54 of 96
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Good one!



    I meant to write puck, not puke.
  • Reply 55 of 96
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mknopp View Post


    Acceptable? You are making this judgement based on what?



    I'm making this judgment based on 12GB being smaller than 16GB.



    Quote:

    The scale of increase is way beyond what the iPhone went through and you are neglecting that we are also going to have to consider the rumor that Apple will be moving to 1080p video.



    Where the increased resolution of graphics and especially video will add up very quickly.



    Seriously? Because the 16GB iPad 2 with a 1024x768 display can support 1080p video output you are making an argument that all video will only added if it's 1080p? Where is the logic in that? iTS and my cable provider still don't offer 1080p so why would you think all textbooks would be 1080p? They don't even have to be 720p or SD to be useful as we can see from history video that will be great for history books.



    For the life of me I can't fathom why you are so against digital textbooks. i'm not sure if you are just overwhelmed in thinking that every worst case scenario you have imagined will be included from day one (we are well past day, BTW) or you are just grasping at straws with your argument. If what you say is true about textbooks on the iPad then why are half of the full textbooks under 1.5GB? They could have 1080p video but they didn't because they didn't have it and/or deemed it wasn't needed.
  • Reply 56 of 96
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    How will Apple do 128GB? Smaller lithograph with slower speeds, less write cycles and with greater cost -or- doubling up the number of NAND chips?



    "Intel and Micron made a multicell 128GB NAND flash memory chip of the type that goes as internal memory in your smartphone and tablet or into microSD memory cards. This is achieved by stacking eight 16GB memory chips densely, and the 128GB memory module will be available in January, with mass production slated for the summer of 2012, meaning we can see mobile devices with this insane storage amount at some point after that."



    PhoneArena.com







    It's made using 20nm process.
  • Reply 57 of 96
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PowerMach View Post


    "Intel and Micron made a multicell 128GB NAND flash memory chip of the type that goes as internal memory in your smartphone and tablet or into microSD memory cards. This is achieved by stacking eight 16GB memory chips densely, and the 128GB memory module will be available in January, with mass production slated for the summer of 2012, meaning we can see mobile devices with this insane storage amount at some point after that."



    PhoneArena.com



    image: http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/...sh-580x191.jpg



    It's made using 20nm process.



    And why is that as good or better option for Apple over their current NAND flash? Price per GB, speed, longevity?
  • Reply 58 of 96
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bikertwin View Post


    What is an iBook? It's just a text file with a bunch of videos, pictures, audio, and code. What does that sound like? A web page. So how do web pages handle this (or even iApps)? They download the text first, then the images, then download the video and audio only as users access it.



    iBooks could use the same model. It could be a little smarter--say, download the video for the current chapter into a cache, and purge the cache 30 days after it's last accessed.



    Think outside the box.





    Hey I'm fine with that but that is not how Apple designed it. It is even worse than you might imagine. If you include an image or video on one page and then repeat the same image or video on another page iBooks includes it twice instead of reusing the same object.
  • Reply 59 of 96
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    And why is that as good or better option for Apple over their current NAND flash? Price per GB, speed, longevity?



    As they were just announced in December, I don't believe that those questions can be answered yet (at least not by me). I understand that you are concerned with Price per GB, speed, and longevity.



    When Apple releases a 128GB iPad (next Tuesday, perhaps?), rest assured that it will have been acquired at a very competitive price per GB, it will be as fast and will last as long.



    I chose that picture and chip because of size. It's very small (a good thing).



    16GB iPad? TOO SMALL.



    Look at where the puck is going...





    try to buy a 32 megabyte usb drive these days.
  • Reply 60 of 96
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Hey I'm fine with that but that is not how Apple designed it. It is even worse than you might imagine. If you include an image or video on one page and then repeat the same image or video on another page iBooks includes it twice instead of reusing the same object.



    I don't see this as an issue. It's clearly not the most effective or efficient method but it is only version 1 and I can't see too many scenarios where many of the same images and/or videos would be reused multiple times in the same book to the point that it significantly increases the size. Still, this is something I would expect to be including at some point.
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