UK ad authority moves closer to '4G' iPad investigation

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  • Reply 61 of 111
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Relic View Post


    ?consumers aren't able to do their homework before leaping.



    Aren't able, or choose not to?



    I suppose the store page could still be misconstrued as working on 4G everywhere, but the product page itself can't anymore. You also pointed out that there's a lack of LTE in Switzerland in the first place. That differentiates this issue slightly from the one being encountered in Scandinavia in that since there's no network to which one can connect, the lack of knowledge (or concern) of 4G (as LTE) is larger.



    And I've just had a revelation. Perhaps Apple is considering HSDPA+ "4G" in all areas (for the purposes of marketing) since AT&T is. If so, that would clarify much?if not all?of the argument.



    The argument over not being able to connect to "4G" networks, that is. Not the argument over what is and isn't 4G. That argument would JUST be getting started.



    Quote:

    It would defiantly stop all of this silly business.



    I've seen you do this a few times now, and I realize that English isn't your first language, so I'd like to just say that you mean 'definitely' here instead of 'defiantly'. It's a common error, even among native speakers. No biggie.
  • Reply 62 of 111
    john.bjohn.b Posts: 2,742member
    What 4G? There is no 4G in the UK, except, where?, Brighton?
  • Reply 63 of 111
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    You don't want to get it, but you certainly understand nevertheless. You're smarter than your making believe you are.



    Corvette Centennial Edition can achieve 197 mph in every market the Corvette Centennial Edition is advertised in unless you have some evidence to the contrary. The iPad 4G is not capable of connecting to advertised 4G services in every country they've marketed to. I know you're looking for wiggle room but the girdle is pretty tight.



    His analogy is sound. The car itself is capable of something but that doesn't mean it's achievable when you place it under unique conditions for it work.
    • Can it legally achieve speeds of 197 MPH on US roads? Nope!

    • Can it technically achieve speeds of 197 MPH on US roads? Yes, if the road is of high enough quality and straight enough to allow for the proper acceleration.

    • Can it technically achieve speeds of 197 MPH on countries with poor road conditions and very curvy roads? Nope.

    • Are people who buy this car likely to test out the max speed limit? I don't think so.

    • Are people who buy this care going to the complain to the manufacture for false advertising because the "network" of roads and legal constraints make it impossible for them to achieve the advertised top speed? Not unless it's called an Apple Corvette.

  • Reply 64 of 111
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    His analogy is sound. The car itself is capable of something but that doesn't mean it's achievable when you place it under unique conditions for it work.
    • Can it legally achieve speeds of 197 MPH on US roads? Nope!

    • Can it technically achieve speeds of 197 MPH on US roads? Yes, if the road is of high enough quality and straight enough to allow for the proper acceleration.

    • Can it technically achieve speeds of 197 MPH on countries with poor road conditions and very curvy roads? Nope.

    • Are people who buy this car likely to test out the max speed limit? I don't think so.

    • Are people who buy this care going to the complain to the manufacture for false advertising because the "network" of roads and legal constraints make it impossible for them to achieve the advertised top speed? Not unless it's called an Apple Corvette.




    Don't make believe you don't understand either. A public highway is not the only place a vehicle can be driven. A buyer should be able to find a place in Sweden to drive his car 197 mph (assuming GM's claim is true to begin with and it was advertised there). GM has placed no limits on the vehicle's ability to hit 197 MPH.



    He will not find a place in Sweden to connect his iPad 4G (LTE) to Sweden's 4G LTE network. Apple has put limits on the ability to connect to other countries advertised 4G networks outside of North America. That's completely in Apple's control.



    No the analogy is not sound. Your argument wasn't even one of your better efforts.
  • Reply 65 of 111
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Don't make believe you don't understand either. A public highway is not the only place a vehicle can be driven. No the analogy is not sound. a buyer can find a place in Sweden to drive his car 197 mph if GM's claim is true to begin with. He will not find a place in Sweden to connect his iPad 4G (LTE) to Sweden's 4G LTE network.



    No the analogy is not sound. GM has placed no limits on the vehicle's ability to hit 197 MPH. Apple has put limits on the ability to connect to other countries advertised 4G networks outside of North America



    Apple has placed no limits on the iPad to use 73Mb/s (theoretical) speeds. I'm not even sure if any US markets have that level of LTE implemented.



    What you're doing is creating an ideal scenario for the car to work in to achieve that maximum speed. It has nothing to do with anything else but the car's top speed. It says nothing about the markets in which it is sold.



    It's like you saying Chevy is lying because you live in the sudan and the car can't be used in the desert. But that would be a silly argument to make. The car doesn't have the right equipment for that terrain just as the iPad doesn't have the right equipment for other terrain. That doesn't mean the iPad nor the Corvette are not capable of achieving the top speeds being mentioned.



    But even that is beside the point because if you're going to argue the one then you should be arguing that the top theoretical speed of the technology is a lie if you can't achieve that with the device which means that everything with networking capabilities are big fat fibbers.
  • Reply 66 of 111
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Apple has placed no limits on the iPad to use 73Mb/s (theoretical) speeds. I'm not even sure if any US markets have that level of LTE implemented.



    What you're doing is creating an ideal scenario for the car to work in to achieve that maximum speed. It has nothing to do with anything else but the car's top speed. It says nothing about the markets in which it is sold.



    It's like you saying Chevy is lying because you live in the sudan and the car can't be used in the desert. But that would be a silly argument to make. The car doesn't have the right equipment for that terrain just as the iPad doesn't have the right equipment for other terrain. That doesn't mean the iPad nor the Corvette are not capable of achieving the top speeds being mentioned.



    But even that is beside the point because if you're going to argue the one then you should be arguing that the top theoretical speed of the technology is a lie if you can't achieve that with the device which means that everything with networking capabilities are big fat fibbers.



    You're trying to change the discussion to a legal definition of 4G rather than a particular counties advertised (and consumer expected) 4G services where Apple markets their product. That's at the root of Apple's problem with consumer protection agencies and why there's claims of misleading advertising.



    So that didn't make the analogy any better Solip. There's a really good reason both you and I tend to avoid using them.
  • Reply 67 of 111
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    There's a really good reason both you and I tend to avoid using them.



    Can you think of an analogy to support that opinion? (Mostly joking, but I am curious if it can be done.)
  • Reply 68 of 111
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Can you think of an analogy to support that opinion? (Mostly joking, but I am curious if it can be done.)



    And golly we just had a discussion and disagreement yet didn't call each other names, mock each other or throw troll, obtuse, or shill into the conversation. We should all be so considerate of other members. Of course that takes a little more thought than I think some might be capable of.
  • Reply 69 of 111
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    You don't want to get it, but you certainly understand nevertheless. You're smarter than your making believe you are.



    Corvette Centennial Edition can achieve 197 mph in every market the Corvette Centennial Edition is advertised in unless you have some evidence to the contrary. The iPad 4G is not capable of connecting to advertised 4G services in every country they've marketed to and there is evidence for that. I know you're looking for wiggle room but the girdle is pretty tight.



    The iPad 4G most certainly is capable of connecting with an LTE network with the right frequencies no matter where you place it. Lack of network isn't Apple's fault.



    Let's say you find an island country that doesn't have any roads. Does that mean that Apple can't advertise a top speed of 197 mph in that country? Obviously not.
  • Reply 70 of 111
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    And golly we just had a discussion and disagreement yet didn't call each other names, mock each other or throw troll, obtuse, or shill into the conversation. We should all be so considerate of other members. Of course that takes a little more thought than I think some might be capable of.



    You're right, it's not as much fun.
  • Reply 71 of 111
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    The iPad 4G most certainly is capable of connecting with an LTE network with the right frequencies no matter where you place it. Lack of network isn't Apple's fault.



    Let's say you find an island country that doesn't have any roads. Does that mean that Apple can't advertise a top speed of 197 mph in that country? Obviously not.



    Of course it's Apple fault. What prevents them from using a chipset with the proper frequencies supported for that country's advertised 4G services? Nothing other than the cost.



    Other manufacturers do, but yes it would be more effort with less profit if Apple were to do the same. The name of the game is profit and Apple plays it better than any other mobile player right now.
  • Reply 72 of 111
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Of course it's Apple fault.



    Sure, it's Apple's fault the way it's Samsung's fault for not investing into better SW development or Google not caring about vetting apps on Google Play the way Apple does. That doesn't make it wrong, it makes it a business decision.



    Quote:

    What prevents them from using a chipset with the proper frequencies supported for that country's advertised 4G services? Nothing other than the cost. Other manufacturers do, but yes it would be more effort with less profit if Apple were to do the same. The name of the game is profit and Apple plays it better than any other mobile player right now.



    The cost is minimal. We're not even talking about different baseband chips, but power amps for the different operating bands. They'd likely make more money in the short run just as they would if they created many different products that are unique to each market, but that's a myopic view of how to run a company.



    Just look at what happened to Nokia. They still sell the most phones and the most models of phones but diluted their brand and stretched themselves too thin. Sure, it was all fine and dandy before the iPhone came along but that's how things work. It's exactly like playing most strategy-based games.



    So why would Apple take less profit now for something that's an easy per-country resolution? Simple: Consistency. Now the US and Canada iPads are a different story because they still have a CDMA-based network which has unfortunately split the network. Now we have decent 3G world-mode chips but we don't LTE chips that support more than 2 bands, at least not in the iPad. So why did they did allow it for the US and Canada? Simple: It wasn't a psychological change YoY. Once they can get 3 or more LTE bands I assume we'll be down to 12 models for the US and Canada, unless new CDMA carriers come on board.



    So this goes back to the upcoming problem I mentioned earlier about the challenge Apple will have in still trying to have one base device for most of the world when the LTE chips seem so limited in the number of bands they support. We might see them split the devices across nations for the first time, or they might simply rollout LTE to new markets that can support the most commonly used bands that will help their sales. The iPhone has a lot of competition so there is a need to saturate the market more aggressively.



    Now the iPad is a different story than the iPhone, and always has been. There is no iPad competition, especially for cellular, so there was no overwhelming need to push LTE to all countries that have it simply because they exist.
    • In Australia, what percentage of iPads are sold with mobile chips?

    • In Australia, how many of them are activated?

    • In Australia, what percentage of cellphone users are using an LTE phone on an LTE network?

    I bet it's pretty damn low compared to the US. I also bet if Canada wasn't inline with US operating bands they wouldn't have been included either.



    So what country or countries are next? I'm guessing the one(s) with the highest level of LTE users for a certain operating frequency. So which one is that?



    Bottom line: If you don't like the products a company offers then don't buy it. If you think the company is dragging its feet because there isn't enough competition to motivate it don't blame the company, blame its inept competition.
  • Reply 73 of 111
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Sure, it's Apple's fault the way it's Samsung's fault for not investing into better SW development or Google not caring about vetting apps on Google Play the way Apple does. That doesn't make it wrong, it makes it a business decision.



    And yet again we agree.
  • Reply 74 of 111
    gregalexandergregalexander Posts: 1,400member
    I get that Apple hasn't bothered with making an LTE iPad for Australia. Our population is low, we only have the 1800Mhz network for now, later 2600 and 700Mhz (Aussie version which isn't finalised)). And the carrier with 1800Mhz is offering DC-HSPA which is regularly getting very fast connections (half the 4G rate, but 2-4x what we would normally expect).



    But for Europe the bands are quite aligned for 800/1800/2600, and I'm surprised that Apple isn't producing a variant for that combination (or part of it). I see that Verizon removes DC-HSPA and gets CDMA options - the European market is bigger than Verizon. An 1800/2600 device would even work on our 1800/2600 in Australia.

    Perhaps the next iPad?



    I expect that for the next 2 years, we'll see the 3G networks bump up to DC-HSPA, while localised versions of 4G devices pick just 1 or 2 of the bands that the local country uses, with a fall back to DC-HSPA in that country and when roaming. Data roaming is so expensive that it's better just to leave it turned off, so even 2G roaming will be enough.
  • Reply 75 of 111
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post


    I get that Apple hasn't bothered with making an LTE iPad for Australia. Our population is low, we only have the 1800Mhz network for now, later 2600 and 700Mhz (Aussie version which isn't finalised)). And the carrier with 1800Mhz is offering DC-HSPA which is regularly getting very fast connections (half the 4G rate, but 2-4x what we would normally expect).



    So 700MHz is the frequency band, but what is the operating band. It seems power amps can't share frequency bands or the iPad 3 would have been usable on Verizon and AT&T's 700MHz spectrums.



    Quote:

    But for Europe the bands are quite aligned for 800/1800/2600, and I'm surprised that Apple isn't producing a variant for that combination (or part of it).



    So that's three frequency bands and potentially a lot more operating bands.Since the iPad only has two operating bands and they could have reduced the number of cellular models in the US by half by simply having three bands in one iPad I think it's safe to say that it's not possible.



    So it three is the minimum then it's one too many and it could be an indicator of why they had to pass on the European market. Are there countries that use more than 2 operating bands because different carriers have allocated different parts of the spectrum within a country? That would be an issue for an otherwise homogenized device.



    Quote:

    I see that Verizon removes DC-HSPA and gets CDMA options



    It's part of the MDM9600 baseband processor and they include the same 4 bands so I assume that it also has the driver to run DC-HSDPA on either device type.
    • Wi-Fi + 4G for AT&T model: 4G LTE (700, 2100 MHz)3; UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+/DC-HSDPA (850, 900, 1900, 2100 MHz); GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)



    • Wi-Fi + 4G for Verizon model: 4G LTE (700 MHz)3; CDMA EV-DO Rev. A (800, 1900 MHz); UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+/DC-HSDPA (850, 900, 1900, 2100 MHz); GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)
    Quote:

    the European market is bigger than Verizon.



    But not the US and Canada. Remember, since adding Verizon and other CDMA-based carriers Apple has to keep it fairly homogenized. We've seen what taking even a minor step back can do with the iPad 3 being 0.1lb and 0.6mm thicker than the iPad 2 yet lighter and thinner than the iPad 1. The difference being they improved it in another way tremendously and by ignoring Verizon to give preference to AT&T for the same market would have been a bad thing. This doesn't apply outside a market or if they hadn't yet partnered with Verizon, but they have so from a business perspectve they are stuck.
  • Reply 76 of 111
    lerxtlerxt Posts: 186member
    Geez this discussion is off track. This is simply about whether Apple advertised in the applicable country in a way that is misleading. If they made claims that a reasonable person could be mislead by, then they loose. If they want to sell in OZ or the UK or wherever then they have to comply with the law. Keep it simple.
  • Reply 77 of 111
    john.bjohn.b Posts: 2,742member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post


    But for Europe the bands are quite aligned for 800/1800/2600, and I'm surprised that Apple isn't producing a variant for that combination (or part of it). I see that Verizon removes DC-HSPA and gets CDMA options - the European market is bigger than Verizon.



    I be very surprised if the current Verizon LTE market wasn't significantly larger than the so-called LTE market in Europe, fragmented or no. I can say with certainty Verizon's currently LTE coverage is far wider today than AT&T will even be by 2013.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lerxt View Post


    Geez this discussion is off track. This is simply about whether Apple advertised in the applicable country in a way that is misleading. If they made claims that a reasonable person could be mislead by, then they loose. If they want to sell in OZ or the UK or wherever then they have to comply with the law. Keep it simple.



    Again, LTE in the UK is vaporware outside of the one tiny test market. For those that insist on the contortion that LTE = 4G (and it isn't), nobody should be advertising anything as 4G in the UK, regardless of device capabilities. Maybe they should have the nanny state bureaucrats ban the term entirely?
  • Reply 78 of 111
    spezispezi Posts: 19member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    They didn't. They listed 4G, which is completely acceptable within the ITU-R definition. They never advertised 4G LTE outside the US and Canada.



    Also note that 4G is such a generic term that LTE is appended to it when actually referring to LTE.



    Not sure about the UK, but in Germany they explicitly advertised 4G LTE. Together with a footnote, that originally stated, that availability depends on area and operator, or something unspecific like that. It was left as an exercise to the reader to figure out, that this "availability" referred to another continent. While this might be technically (and maybe also legally) correct, I think Apple initially did a pretty bad job in informing its potential customers.



    By now they have modified the German version twice. Initially, the it was made clear that 4G LTE was restricted to the US and Canada, while otherwise the iPad would support "with HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSPA the fastest 3G networks in existence". By now, they have dropped mentioning 4G (and LTE) altogether, as I just saw.



    All legal considerations aside, I think Apple should have right from the start adapted their wording to the countries they target the respective website at. So, for Germany, stress that it supports DC-HSPA with 42 Mbit/s, and maybe as a "bonus" mention, that you can even use LTE if you are in North America. That's plain, simple and straight forward. And I thought, simplicity and being self-explanatory is something that is very important to Apple.
  • Reply 79 of 111
    fredaroonyfredaroony Posts: 619member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spezi View Post


    Not sure about the UK, but in Germany they explicitly advertised 4G LTE. Together with a footnote, that originally stated, that availability depends on area and operator, or something unspecific like that. It was left as an exercise to the reader to figure out, that this "availability" referred to another continent. While this might be technically (and maybe also legally) correct, I think Apple initially did a pretty bad job in informing its potential customers.



    By now they have modified the German version twice. Initially, the it was made clear that 4G LTE was restricted to the US and Canada, while otherwise the iPad would support "with HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSPA the fastest 3G networks in existence". By now, they have dropped mentioning 4G (and LTE) altogether, as I just saw.



    All legal considerations aside, I think Apple should have right from the start adapted their wording to the countries they target the respective website at. So, for Germany, stress that it supports DC-HSPA with 42 Mbit/s, and maybe as a "bonus" mention, that you can even use LTE if you are in North America. That's plain, simple and straight forward. And I thought, simplicity and being self-explanatory is something that is very important to Apple.



    Now wait for the response that anyone in Germany who misunderstood is a "moron" or "can't read" or "can't comprehend" .
  • Reply 80 of 111
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post


    I see what your saying, but the complaint is more that all the cars are already advertised as "55mph", and some new cars can do and say 110mph, which is very appealing to many customers.



    Then apple comes along saying "iPad 110mph (but only 55 unless you're in Germany). "



    Then there are complaints of misadvertising,





    No, not exactly. It's like Apple advertising the "iPad 100g" as an iPad that weighs only 100 grams (with footnote #6 specifying that it may weigh a full 600 grams if used outside of the Moon).
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