"to make sure it's fair for everyone" - that never has been the objective of the US Tax Code. The Byzantine pile of manure that masquerades as a tax code is rife with code to help each Congressman's constituency's special interests milk the system dry. Maybe Steve Forbes had the right idea—a flat tax. Everyone pays. No exceptions. No loopholes.
Romney's tax rate is a result of the lower tax rate applied to capital gains, not overseas tax shelters.
Oh, how easy it is to be misinformed. Let me guess: you're a republican? As recently as 2010, Romney had money in Swiss bank accounts (UBS is one that we know of) which he only brought back to the U.S. because he had other republicans who wanted to run against him this year out him for shady money. He probably still has a ton of money in the Cayman Islands, if not other places too.
Apple is simply following the laws put in place to their best advantage...just like EVERYONE else in the country.
What is reprehensible are people like Obama and Buffett and Biden saying that the wealthy should pay more, yet they still take advantage of all the tax breaks available instead of paying the higher rate that they believe is "patriotic".
As an aside, what bothers me as an Apple shareholder is not their making use of available tax "loopholes" (which is simply saying, the tax code), rather it is that by refusing to just pay the repatriation taxes now, they have blown the opportunity to buy back an enormous number of shares at ridiculously cheap prices. If they had just paid the tax and done the buyback, shareholders would be much better off.
Sadly, with the corrupt bunch of morons in government at the moment (on both sides of the aisle), that is a long way from happening.
I'm not sure why I thought these forums would be a forum for reasonable, factual discourse.
Case in point: calling everyone single person in the American government "morons."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb
He's livid yet everything that Apple is doIng is 100% legal and common. What a dork.
Really? 100%? So Dateline had absolutely no reason to air an entire episode on Apple's offshore manufacturing partners?
Apple could be under investigation for supporting mass murder and I feel like people who read AppleInsider would be like, "Well, it's not THAT many people. People die all the time. . . ."
Face it! Apple does bad stuff sometimes! Yes! It's probably true!
Another Dork on the hill using poor facts from an article by a new york rag circling the rim as it gets flushed into irrelevance.
Is it too much to ask fo a US Senator to do a little research beyond reading an article in a newspaper that lost its last shred of credibility more than 10 years ao.
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;">Really? 100%? So Dateline had absolutely no reason to air an entire episode on Apple's offshore manufacturing partners?</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;">Apple could be under investigation for supporting mass murder and I feel like people who read AppleInsider would be like, "Well, it's not THAT many people. People die all the time. . . ."</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;">Face it! Apple does bad stuff sometimes! Yes! It's probably true!</p>
What on earth are you talking about? By the way thanks for citing the only major news organization that is less credible than the New York Times.
"to make sure it's fair for everyone" - that never has been the objective of the US Tax Code. The Byzantine pile of manure that masquerades as a tax code is rife with code to help each Congressman's constituency's special interests milk the system dry. Maybe Steve Forbes had the right idea—a flat tax. Everyone pays. No exceptions. No loopholes.
Actually, Forbes was close, but missed by a bit.
If I were doing it, I'd eliminate all deductions. First $50 K of income would be exempt. Next $200 K taxed at one rate (perhaps 15%). Anything above that at a higher rate (perhaps 25%). With elimination of all deductions, those rates would probably generate revenue at least equal to the current mess - but save billions of dollars on enforcing compliance. Everyone would be allowed to earn enough to take care of the necessities of life before taxes kick in (and with the current deductions, few people earning under $50 K are paying much, if any, in taxes, anyway).
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall
It is a very complicated convoluted mess, and intentionally so on the government's part. But as Irwin Schiff would say, the laws are ok, it is truly voluntary, but it is illegally enforced. Up until 1913, there was no Income Tax, funny, the same year Income Tax was created, the Federal Reserve was also inaugurated -- YES THERE IS A CORRELATION!
Watch the videos and read the PDF book the Federal Mafia, and most all your questions will be answered. You may need to read and watch multiple times to get all the meaning, due to the scope of the graft deception known as the Income Tax and separate Wage Tax (withholding, which is also voluntary).
It is great that you have a healthy curiosity, so keep asking questions, and you will find the answers! It comes down to the fact that the law (16th Amendment which was not even legitimately passed), but even so it is still voluntary, so the laws are ok. The rub is that it is illegally enforced which makes it unconstitutional, and that would have to be the challenge to the Supreme Court.
Just one minor problem with that. The Constitutionality of the income tax and its enforcement has been firmly established and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Maybe you've heard of them.
Perhaps they can take a leaf from Apple's book and charge a flat 30% tax on everything. The statute would be staggeringly small and would not favour one type of income over another. Half the reason for Congress existing would be eliminated.
If you mad it 30% of everything you make over 20k it would be all good. I am not suggesting a deduction. Everyones first 20k shols be tax free. Otherwise you make it impossible for people to save enough to build a meth lab.
Companies can't just 'move to another country' if we reform the tax code, America is one of the biggest markets in the world and no company is going to skip an opportunity to make more money, regardless what they are taxed. If there's profit in it for them, they'll stay.
If I were doing it, I'd eliminate all deductions. First $50 K of income would be exempt. Next $200 K taxed at one rate (perhaps 15%). Anything above that at a higher rate (perhaps 25%). With elimination of all deductions, those rates would probably generate revenue at least equal to the current mess - but save billions of dollars on enforcing compliance. Everyone would be allowed to earn enough to take care of the necessities of life before taxes kick in (and with the current deductions, few people earning under $50 K are paying much, if any, in taxes, anyway).
Just one minor problem with that. The Constitutionality of the income tax and its enforcement has been firmly established and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Maybe you've heard of them.
I would agree that a simple post card calculation like you are advocating is the best first step in getting the country's financial house in order. It would also be a good idea to create a system of accounting for tracking what is owed to the country from all types of income. It may shock you to find out that there is no such animal. A simpler tax code would make it possible to do this. Complexity of governing systems is even worse than too much government. It encourages out right graft and theft. If Congress was just smart enough to figure out that the money trough is getting empty and that only a reset of the system will allow any additional changes to be added to the system with out causing an outright collapse of government. It is in their best interest to put aside special interests and just create a simple clean system. As my Mom said,"get the facts first, you can distort them later." Politicians are a necessary evil that feeds off of money for sale. There is no more money to sell. Feed the cow then you can get more milk later.
Has this moron been living in a cave or what? The top 25 corps in this country pay less than 4% federal taxes per year due to overseas tax shelters and tax code loopholes. He's just now figuring this out? Yeah right.
Not all big companies cheat/work the system and have empty office or mail boxes for tax purposes.
mdriftmeyer might want to learn from someone steeped in freedom, law and history, not nationalist skewed views that want to create an illusion that the original intent can change, magically over time. After all, in order to understand even a mere word, one needs to read the definition of that word in a dictionary of meanings OF THAT TIME!
Judge Andrew Napolitano
Michael Badnarik
Rights do not come from government, they are inherent, and freedom, when usurped by government -- must be corrected. Mind you, the Constitution can surely be refined to further improve freedom protections for We The People.
Are you going to somehow tell us that the general welfare clause authorizes the federal government to engage in transfer payments because you think it is mutable? If so, I have oceanfront property in Las Vegas for you as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
Liberty4All Libertarian wannabe doesn't grasp the Constitution, Madison, Jefferson, Halmilton and the rest intent, who compromised and ratified the US Constitution. If he reads the unabridged Library of America Debates on the US Constitution he'd stop posting junk about unconstitutionality of the Fed, Central Bank, etc. Most importantly, if he can't grasp the US Constitution is a Mutable Document of Laws through it's extension via Amendments then they truly are denser than lead.
Now you are going to try to school us that the Supreme Court has made all decisions in the best interests of freedom of We The People? Give me a break! Come on, you are smarter than that!
Just one minor problem with that. The Constitutionality of the income tax and its enforcement has been firmly established and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Maybe you've heard of them.
Right. Congress can't balance the budget or reverse the gleeful deficit spending, but oh, we're going to get "livid" if Apple lawfully pays a lower tax rate.
I wish we could vote out the entire Congress this political season, and start from scratch.
What an arrogant, dysfunctional bunch of losers. And pathetic leeches too.
As tempting as that seems, freshmen congressmen are made to rely more on the lobbyists for research and data than the senior congressmen. It's an unfortunate situation that by the time any congressmen is elected they have had to sell their soul to corporations they need to regulate. The freshman congressmen even more so.
Comments
"to make sure it's fair for everyone" - that never has been the objective of the US Tax Code. The Byzantine pile of manure that masquerades as a tax code is rife with code to help each Congressman's constituency's special interests milk the system dry. Maybe Steve Forbes had the right idea—a flat tax. Everyone pays. No exceptions. No loopholes.
'senator livid' what does that exactly mean??? Is he pissed off somebody else besides him is screwing the tax system????
I'm outraged a REPUBLICAN would jump on the anti-business bandwagon like this. This guy needs to be drummed out of office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igxqrrl
Romney's tax rate is a result of the lower tax rate applied to capital gains, not overseas tax shelters.
Oh, how easy it is to be misinformed. Let me guess: you're a republican? As recently as 2010, Romney had money in Swiss bank accounts (UBS is one that we know of) which he only brought back to the U.S. because he had other republicans who wanted to run against him this year out him for shady money. He probably still has a ton of money in the Cayman Islands, if not other places too.
Apple is simply following the laws put in place to their best advantage...just like EVERYONE else in the country.
What is reprehensible are people like Obama and Buffett and Biden saying that the wealthy should pay more, yet they still take advantage of all the tax breaks available instead of paying the higher rate that they believe is "patriotic".
As an aside, what bothers me as an Apple shareholder is not their making use of available tax "loopholes" (which is simply saying, the tax code), rather it is that by refusing to just pay the repatriation taxes now, they have blown the opportunity to buy back an enormous number of shares at ridiculously cheap prices. If they had just paid the tax and done the buyback, shareholders would be much better off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson
Sadly, with the corrupt bunch of morons in government at the moment (on both sides of the aisle), that is a long way from happening.
I'm not sure why I thought these forums would be a forum for reasonable, factual discourse.
Case in point: calling everyone single person in the American government "morons."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb
He's livid yet everything that Apple is doIng is 100% legal and common. What a dork.
Really? 100%? So Dateline had absolutely no reason to air an entire episode on Apple's offshore manufacturing partners?
Apple could be under investigation for supporting mass murder and I feel like people who read AppleInsider would be like, "Well, it's not THAT many people. People die all the time. . . ."
Face it! Apple does bad stuff sometimes! Yes! It's probably true!
Is it too much to ask fo a US Senator to do a little research beyond reading an article in a newspaper that lost its last shred of credibility more than 10 years ao.
What on earth are you talking about? By the way thanks for citing the only major news organization that is less credible than the New York Times.
Can't screw a system you are exempt from
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHelpDesk
"to make sure it's fair for everyone" - that never has been the objective of the US Tax Code. The Byzantine pile of manure that masquerades as a tax code is rife with code to help each Congressman's constituency's special interests milk the system dry. Maybe Steve Forbes had the right idea—a flat tax. Everyone pays. No exceptions. No loopholes.
Actually, Forbes was close, but missed by a bit.
If I were doing it, I'd eliminate all deductions. First $50 K of income would be exempt. Next $200 K taxed at one rate (perhaps 15%). Anything above that at a higher rate (perhaps 25%). With elimination of all deductions, those rates would probably generate revenue at least equal to the current mess - but save billions of dollars on enforcing compliance. Everyone would be allowed to earn enough to take care of the necessities of life before taxes kick in (and with the current deductions, few people earning under $50 K are paying much, if any, in taxes, anyway).
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall
It is a very complicated convoluted mess, and intentionally so on the government's part. But as Irwin Schiff would say, the laws are ok, it is truly voluntary, but it is illegally enforced. Up until 1913, there was no Income Tax, funny, the same year Income Tax was created, the Federal Reserve was also inaugurated -- YES THERE IS A CORRELATION!
Watch the videos and read the PDF book the Federal Mafia, and most all your questions will be answered. You may need to read and watch multiple times to get all the meaning, due to the scope of the graft deception known as the Income Tax and separate Wage Tax (withholding, which is also voluntary).
It is great that you have a healthy curiosity, so keep asking questions, and you will find the answers! It comes down to the fact that the law (16th Amendment which was not even legitimately passed), but even so it is still voluntary, so the laws are ok. The rub is that it is illegally enforced which makes it unconstitutional, and that would have to be the challenge to the Supreme Court.
Just one minor problem with that. The Constitutionality of the income tax and its enforcement has been firmly established and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Maybe you've heard of them.
If you mad it 30% of everything you make over 20k it would be all good. I am not suggesting a deduction. Everyones first 20k shols be tax free. Otherwise you make it impossible for people to save enough to build a meth lab.
Companies can't just 'move to another country' if we reform the tax code, America is one of the biggest markets in the world and no company is going to skip an opportunity to make more money, regardless what they are taxed. If there's profit in it for them, they'll stay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Actually, Forbes was close, but missed by a bit.
If I were doing it, I'd eliminate all deductions. First $50 K of income would be exempt. Next $200 K taxed at one rate (perhaps 15%). Anything above that at a higher rate (perhaps 25%). With elimination of all deductions, those rates would probably generate revenue at least equal to the current mess - but save billions of dollars on enforcing compliance. Everyone would be allowed to earn enough to take care of the necessities of life before taxes kick in (and with the current deductions, few people earning under $50 K are paying much, if any, in taxes, anyway).
Just one minor problem with that. The Constitutionality of the income tax and its enforcement has been firmly established and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Maybe you've heard of them.
I would agree that a simple post card calculation like you are advocating is the best first step in getting the country's financial house in order. It would also be a good idea to create a system of accounting for tracking what is owed to the country from all types of income. It may shock you to find out that there is no such animal. A simpler tax code would make it possible to do this. Complexity of governing systems is even worse than too much government. It encourages out right graft and theft. If Congress was just smart enough to figure out that the money trough is getting empty and that only a reset of the system will allow any additional changes to be added to the system with out causing an outright collapse of government. It is in their best interest to put aside special interests and just create a simple clean system. As my Mom said,"get the facts first, you can distort them later." Politicians are a necessary evil that feeds off of money for sale. There is no more money to sell. Feed the cow then you can get more milk later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmvsm
Has this moron been living in a cave or what? The top 25 corps in this country pay less than 4% federal taxes per year due to overseas tax shelters and tax code loopholes. He's just now figuring this out? Yeah right.
Not all big companies cheat/work the system and have empty office or mail boxes for tax purposes.
Intel pays 28%.
http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/finance-topcompanytaxes/intel/
Libertarian in fact. Are you? Find out here:
http://www.self-gov.org/quiz
mdriftmeyer might want to learn from someone steeped in freedom, law and history, not nationalist skewed views that want to create an illusion that the original intent can change, magically over time. After all, in order to understand even a mere word, one needs to read the definition of that word in a dictionary of meanings OF THAT TIME!
Judge Andrew Napolitano
Michael Badnarik
Rights do not come from government, they are inherent, and freedom, when usurped by government -- must be corrected. Mind you, the Constitution can surely be refined to further improve freedom protections for We The People.
Are you going to somehow tell us that the general welfare clause authorizes the federal government to engage in transfer payments because you think it is mutable? If so, I have oceanfront property in Las Vegas for you as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
Liberty4All Libertarian wannabe doesn't grasp the Constitution, Madison, Jefferson, Halmilton and the rest intent, who compromised and ratified the US Constitution. If he reads the unabridged Library of America Debates on the US Constitution he'd stop posting junk about unconstitutionality of the Fed, Central Bank, etc. Most importantly, if he can't grasp the US Constitution is a Mutable Document of Laws through it's extension via Amendments then they truly are denser than lead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzz
Apple seems to be the flavour of the month.
Right. Congress can't balance the budget or reverse the gleeful deficit spending, but oh, we're going to get "livid" if Apple lawfully pays a lower tax rate.
Hey, even politicians are jumping on the Apple story click-bait. Would you have read this article if it was about Chuck's Waffles & Anvils?
It's the US banking system vs the corporations. The corporations win every time. They go off shore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
I wish we could vote out the entire Congress this political season, and start from scratch.
What an arrogant, dysfunctional bunch of losers. And pathetic leeches too.
As tempting as that seems, freshmen congressmen are made to rely more on the lobbyists for research and data than the senior congressmen. It's an unfortunate situation that by the time any congressmen is elected they have had to sell their soul to corporations they need to regulate. The freshman congressmen even more so.