It's a slippery slope where not supporting the Professionals means entire businesses, and by extension their employees at home have to jump off the Apple Platform because they're not willing to buy two licenses for every software product (one for the Mac and one for the Windows side.)
Have you noticed that with the new CS6 subscription you only need one license to put a copy on your Mac and Windows machine?
A render farm is doing only one task. A typical use of a Mac Pro might involve having half of CS suite open at the same time. Rendering a video in the background while cutting a mask in Photoshop with a an open project in After Effects and a vector image open in Illustrator that you are switching back an forth and copying from one app to the other. Of course you have your mail and browser open all the time and might be listening to iTunes as well. Anything less than a Mac Pro is going to be a beach ball fest.
The real question is just how many people like that are there? How many sales would Apple lose if they killed off the Mac Pro? Apple knows how many Mac Pros it sells each year and any decision is going to be based on this, not on comments on the Internet.
"Sales executives reportedly believed that the machine's days are numbered because sales of the workstations have dwindled in recent years."
The same recent years the machine hasn't been updated? What a shocking coincidence.
Ya gotta love sales executives who see their customers' needs as annoyances to be ignored. Professionals won't buy another machine that's basically what we already have, just because we haven't plunked down our dough on one in a while. You only replace a computer when it dies, a newer version with enough greater computing power becomes available to make the cost of upgrade worth it, or the new machine allows for specific configurations that enable us maximize the new cash outlay to fit more targeted needs. That's not to say professionals don't have a need to upgrade, they just haven't been given anything to upgrade to.
Apple used to be a company that understood a business can be successful operating in a small portion of overall market share. They didn't have to have 90% of the market to be profitable, they just had to do what they do in their 10% better than anyone else and grow at a pace relative to that market share. Now it seems their "sales executives" believe they have to have a giant marketshare in all of their product lines. It's not enough to sell at super high margins, you have to sell at super high margins AND super high volume?
Great Post GMHut. What a shocker that Mac pro sales have tanked when no new model has been released in 2 years or that the prices are ridiculously high for what you get. 2008 was the last year you could find soe value for your money in the Mac pro line since you could get an 8 core for less than $3,000. Why is Apple so tied to Xeon anyway on the entry level model? A 4 or 6 core i7 3.4GHz would fit the bill nicely for the entry model.
The real question is just how many people like that are there?
Tons. The graphic design industry is only growing. The real question is, given Apple has never been the leader in total computer sales while making computers design professionals relied on (and Apple made a handy profit doing so) why is it all of a sudden not profitable to continue making a product that still suits that segment of buyers?
Apple higher-ups should drag out a copy of that 1984 commercial and watch it a few times, then consider maybe tempering reliance on sales executives in developing product lines. Let your customers tell you what they need. Let the sales execs adjust. Not the other way around.
The real question is just how many people like that are there? How many sales would Apple lose if they killed off the Mac Pro? Apple knows how many Mac Pros it sells each year and any decision is going to be based on this, not on comments on the Internet.
I don't disagree with that only it will be a disappointment if they do discontinue it. I think the few pros that indeed need it would be willing to pay more for an absolutely top of the line computer. You just build it into the cost of the job. Perhaps like Mercedes Benz - they make luxury autos that are affordable but they also make a $500K vehicle as well. Sure they don't sell very many but the fact that they make one reinforces their high quality reputation and they don't lose money on it so it is a net win.
Is it really the flagship? It might be the fastest, but is it really the device all Apple users aspire to own? Is it the device that gives Apple it's cool image? I don't think it is. Out of Apple's range of computers the MacBook Pro is the flag ship. It might not be a practical as the Mac Pro, but it has the stronger public image.
What you don't seem to realise is that many pro users rely on the Mac Pro for their livelihood. They don't care if it's "cool" or trendy or the must have product. The Mac Pro is a workhorse. By definition it's not meant to be "cool" and I really don't care what has the stronger public image. Like many people I need a power machine to my job. The iMac is a consumer machine and the thought of spending 10 hours a day hunched over a MBP fills me with dread. If Apple finally kills the Mac Pro they will lose a great deal of goodwill and a lot of associated product sales.
I don't disagree with that only it will be a disappointment if they do discontinue it. I think the few pros that indeed need it would be willing to pay more for an absolutely top of the line computer. You just build it into the cost of the job. Perhaps like Mercedes Benz - they make luxury autos that are affordable but they also make a $500K vehicle as well. Sure they don't sell very many but the fact that they make one reinforces their high quality reputation and they don't lose money on it so it is a net win.
I don't think the Mac Pro is the equivalent of a Mercedes SLS AMG. I say it is more like a Mercedes Heavy Goods Vehicle (tractor-trailer for Americans). It is big, expensive, but it is a workhorse not a flagship. It is not the device that gives Apple its high quality reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK
What you don't seem to realise is that many pro users rely on the Mac Pro for their livelihood. They don't care if it's "cool" or trendy or the must have product. The Mac Pro is a workhorse. By definition it's not meant to be "cool" and I really don't care what has the stronger public image. Like many people I need a power machine to my job. The iMac is a consumer machine and the thought of spending 10 hours a day hunched over a MBP fills me with dread. If Apple finally kills the Mac Pro they will lose a great deal of goodwill and a lot of associated product sales.
That is part of the problem. It doesn't have the halo effect that many other Apple products have. The iPhone, iPad, Macbook Pro contribute towards Apple's brand helping Apple attract more consumers in a way that the Mac Pro does not.
Consumers do not buy Mercedes cars because of the reputation of their commercial vehicles.
Tons. The graphic design industry is only growing. The real question is, given Apple has never been the leader in total computer sales while making computers design professionals relied on (and Apple made a handy profit doing so) why is it all of a sudden not profitable to continue making a product that still suits that segment of buyers?
How many users is "tons"?
As I said in the post you quoted, it is not what someone says on the internet, it is about actual sales figures. Apple has the sales figures. The know exactly how many Mac Pros are sold each year. They know if it is worth continuing the Mac Pro.
If Apple finally kills the Mac Pro they will lose a great deal of goodwill and a lot of associated product sales.
Yes. If they do, there will be a firestorm of coverage about it, dwarfing everything else they're trying to do. The upshot of the news coverage will be "Apple is the new Sony."
People who think it would not be a big deal are either ignorant or kidding themselves.
But it's not going to happen. There have been zero signs from Apple pointing in that direction. The lack of a Mac Pro refresh last year had nothing to do with Apple. It was an Intel delay -- those processors went into full-scale production only a month ago. Now it's too late to do a refresh, with the new Thunderbolt/USB3 Mac Pro just around the corner. So relax, it's coming. Get some work done.
That's because you are talking to dumb consumers (Apple's target customers now are kids who don't know better or technophobes) for whom dumb iPhone appliance does 99% of what they want to do with a "computer". Most don't even need a general purpose computing machine. If you tell them you need actual computer, it stumps them and they just can't imagine anyone doing something that might require more than an iPhone. Having a computer is so 90s and passe and not cool. We are in post PC world you know .
Never mind that they are eating content served from powerful servers running on Linux or Windows .
My advice to anyone who really has a legitimate need for more computing power: don't wait for Apple. Switch already to Windows/Linux solution and eat your initial costs. Apple really does not care any more for us.
How big is the graphic design industry? How many design firms engage in video production/editing, 3D rendering, print, and web design all in one shop? I don't have an exact number to give you, but I'm guessing you don't either. Suffice it to say the field of graphic design was one of the top growth industries for employment when I graduated in 1987 and it has only grown since, so in absence of an actual number of professionals who use Mac work stations, I'm pretty confident in guessing the number is greater now, than when Apple first offered work stations and did so at a profit.
The facebook group is weak, but i have sent [email protected] formal and polite letters twice in the last year, on my concerns of apples future commitment to pro users in general. As someone who needs a powerful tower both professionally and recreationally. an imac is not an option, certainly a macbook pro isn't one.
You're a recreational tower user? You mean like 3D games?
My advice to anyone who really has a legitimate need for more computing power: don't wait for Apple. Switch already to Windows/Linux solution and eat your initial costs. Apple really does not care any more for us.
Both of those OSs are a pain to work on from a file management, searching, naming, and application association perspective. Mac is so much more fluid and efficient to use for long hours. I can say that with some authority as I have all three platforms sitting on my desk and I am proficient on every one of them. I would build a Hackintosh as my second choice after a Mac Pro. For the type of work I specialize in which is all CS suite applications, nothing touches OS X. Just trying work in text on those other platforms is painful as it is not very precise where the cursor actually will land when you drop into a string or try to select some characters. Plus the fonts do not render as well in my opinion. Furthermore if you want to do any iOS development, you can't do it without OS X.
But that doesn't have anything to do with the Mac Pro and the server capabilities built into OS X. The difference between Apple today and Sony yesterday is OS X. The iOS is an offshoot of OS X. The Mac Pro and OS X are the foundation on which the whole Apple hardware + software ecosystem is built, from the iPod to the iPhone to the iPad to the iMac to the MacBook to whatever's next. Developing OS X for Intel's high-end processors is essential for staying ahead of the curve -- Apple needs the Mac Pro to do that.
That's right. Eventually tablet devices will be as powerful as towers are today. The iPad is currently 32-bit dual core device but eventually will be 64-bit 12-core like the Mac Pro. By having towers today Apple is in a way developing technologies for future iPads. Not the GUI obviously, but the core os and programmer libraries. By the time they reach the iPad they can be at v3.0 whereas other manufacturers may be deploying more untested code on their tablets.
That's not to say the Mac Pro can not be justified on it's own merits, just that (as you point out) it has benefits outside of just that model.
That's right. Eventually tablet devices will be as powerful as towers are today. The iPad is currently 32-bit dual core device but eventually will be 64-bit 12-core like the Mac Pro. By having towers today Apple is in a way developing technologies for future iPads. Not the GUI obviously, but the core os and programmer libraries. By the time they reach the iPad they can be at v3.0 whereas other manufacturers may be deploying more untested code on their tablets.
That's not to say the Mac Pro can not be justified on it's own merits, just that (as you point out) it has benefits outside of just that model.
And by the time iPad is 12 core 64 bit, 1 TB of RAM, imagine what a box the size of Mac Pro will be able to contain. 1024 core CPUs and video cards capable of rendering 9000x7000 1 hour ultra HD video in matter of seconds and loads of fast storage small device like iPad can only dream of .
And by the time iPad is 12 core 64 bit, 1 TB of RAM, imagine what a box the size of Mac Pro will be able to contain. 1024 core CPUs and video cards capable of rendering 9000x7000 1 hour ultra HD video in matter of seconds and loads of fast storage small device like iPad can only dream of .
While that's true, computer power has increased faster than users' needs on average.
20 years ago, the average user really needed a mid-range computer and many needed a very high end computer (actually, they needed more than was available at the time).
Today, the average user can get by with the lowest end computer they can find and most of the rest can easily get by with a mid-range like an iMac. The number who need a high end computer like the Mac Pro has declined significantly.
That's not to say that there isn't a need for a Mac Pro. I fully expect that they will continue to offer it. But I would expect time between upgrades to increase and the emphasis to be placed elsewhere - which is exactly what has happened.
And by the time iPad is 12 core 64 bit, 1 TB of RAM, imagine what a box the size of Mac Pro will be able to contain. 1024 core CPUs and video cards capable of rendering 9000x7000 1 hour ultra HD video in matter of seconds and loads of fast storage small device like iPad can only dream of .
Swweeeet...
The interesting thing will be, once that kind of power is attained, if new kinds of applications will come about. Apps compelling enough to reverse the trend towards not having a desktop computer any more.
Currently only pro apps need that kind of power but what if it is simply a lack of imagination in the consumer space. Especially since that is the domain that creative people occupy, it would seem the most likely source. There is a strategic danger perhaps in not maintaining a presence in this space.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misa
It's a slippery slope where not supporting the Professionals means entire businesses, and by extension their employees at home have to jump off the Apple Platform because they're not willing to buy two licenses for every software product (one for the Mac and one for the Windows side.)
Have you noticed that with the new CS6 subscription you only need one license to put a copy on your Mac and Windows machine?
The real question is just how many people like that are there? How many sales would Apple lose if they killed off the Mac Pro? Apple knows how many Mac Pros it sells each year and any decision is going to be based on this, not on comments on the Internet.
"Sales executives reportedly believed that the machine's days are numbered because sales of the workstations have dwindled in recent years."
The same recent years the machine hasn't been updated? What a shocking coincidence.
Ya gotta love sales executives who see their customers' needs as annoyances to be ignored. Professionals won't buy another machine that's basically what we already have, just because we haven't plunked down our dough on one in a while. You only replace a computer when it dies, a newer version with enough greater computing power becomes available to make the cost of upgrade worth it, or the new machine allows for specific configurations that enable us maximize the new cash outlay to fit more targeted needs. That's not to say professionals don't have a need to upgrade, they just haven't been given anything to upgrade to.
Apple used to be a company that understood a business can be successful operating in a small portion of overall market share. They didn't have to have 90% of the market to be profitable, they just had to do what they do in their 10% better than anyone else and grow at a pace relative to that market share. Now it seems their "sales executives" believe they have to have a giant marketshare in all of their product lines. It's not enough to sell at super high margins, you have to sell at super high margins AND super high volume?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
The real question is just how many people like that are there? How many sales would Apple lose if they killed off the Mac Pro?
Tens of thousands directly, hundreds of thousands to millions indirectly.
Great Post GMHut. What a shocker that Mac pro sales have tanked when no new model has been released in 2 years or that the prices are ridiculously high for what you get. 2008 was the last year you could find soe value for your money in the Mac pro line since you could get an 8 core for less than $3,000. Why is Apple so tied to Xeon anyway on the entry level model? A 4 or 6 core i7 3.4GHz would fit the bill nicely for the entry model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
The real question is just how many people like that are there?
Tons. The graphic design industry is only growing. The real question is, given Apple has never been the leader in total computer sales while making computers design professionals relied on (and Apple made a handy profit doing so) why is it all of a sudden not profitable to continue making a product that still suits that segment of buyers?
Apple higher-ups should drag out a copy of that 1984 commercial and watch it a few times, then consider maybe tempering reliance on sales executives in developing product lines. Let your customers tell you what they need. Let the sales execs adjust. Not the other way around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
The real question is just how many people like that are there? How many sales would Apple lose if they killed off the Mac Pro? Apple knows how many Mac Pros it sells each year and any decision is going to be based on this, not on comments on the Internet.
I don't disagree with that only it will be a disappointment if they do discontinue it. I think the few pros that indeed need it would be willing to pay more for an absolutely top of the line computer. You just build it into the cost of the job. Perhaps like Mercedes Benz - they make luxury autos that are affordable but they also make a $500K vehicle as well. Sure they don't sell very many but the fact that they make one reinforces their high quality reputation and they don't lose money on it so it is a net win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
Is it really the flagship? It might be the fastest, but is it really the device all Apple users aspire to own? Is it the device that gives Apple it's cool image? I don't think it is. Out of Apple's range of computers the MacBook Pro is the flag ship. It might not be a practical as the Mac Pro, but it has the stronger public image.
What you don't seem to realise is that many pro users rely on the Mac Pro for their livelihood. They don't care if it's "cool" or trendy or the must have product. The Mac Pro is a workhorse. By definition it's not meant to be "cool" and I really don't care what has the stronger public image. Like many people I need a power machine to my job. The iMac is a consumer machine and the thought of spending 10 hours a day hunched over a MBP fills me with dread. If Apple finally kills the Mac Pro they will lose a great deal of goodwill and a lot of associated product sales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I don't disagree with that only it will be a disappointment if they do discontinue it. I think the few pros that indeed need it would be willing to pay more for an absolutely top of the line computer. You just build it into the cost of the job. Perhaps like Mercedes Benz - they make luxury autos that are affordable but they also make a $500K vehicle as well. Sure they don't sell very many but the fact that they make one reinforces their high quality reputation and they don't lose money on it so it is a net win.
I don't think the Mac Pro is the equivalent of a Mercedes SLS AMG. I say it is more like a Mercedes Heavy Goods Vehicle (tractor-trailer for Americans). It is big, expensive, but it is a workhorse not a flagship. It is not the device that gives Apple its high quality reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK
What you don't seem to realise is that many pro users rely on the Mac Pro for their livelihood. They don't care if it's "cool" or trendy or the must have product. The Mac Pro is a workhorse. By definition it's not meant to be "cool" and I really don't care what has the stronger public image. Like many people I need a power machine to my job. The iMac is a consumer machine and the thought of spending 10 hours a day hunched over a MBP fills me with dread. If Apple finally kills the Mac Pro they will lose a great deal of goodwill and a lot of associated product sales.
That is part of the problem. It doesn't have the halo effect that many other Apple products have. The iPhone, iPad, Macbook Pro contribute towards Apple's brand helping Apple attract more consumers in a way that the Mac Pro does not.
Consumers do not buy Mercedes cars because of the reputation of their commercial vehicles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMHut
Tons. The graphic design industry is only growing. The real question is, given Apple has never been the leader in total computer sales while making computers design professionals relied on (and Apple made a handy profit doing so) why is it all of a sudden not profitable to continue making a product that still suits that segment of buyers?
How many users is "tons"?
As I said in the post you quoted, it is not what someone says on the internet, it is about actual sales figures. Apple has the sales figures. The know exactly how many Mac Pros are sold each year. They know if it is worth continuing the Mac Pro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK
If Apple finally kills the Mac Pro they will lose a great deal of goodwill and a lot of associated product sales.
Yes. If they do, there will be a firestorm of coverage about it, dwarfing everything else they're trying to do. The upshot of the news coverage will be "Apple is the new Sony."
People who think it would not be a big deal are either ignorant or kidding themselves.
But it's not going to happen. There have been zero signs from Apple pointing in that direction. The lack of a Mac Pro refresh last year had nothing to do with Apple. It was an Intel delay -- those processors went into full-scale production only a month ago. Now it's too late to do a refresh, with the new Thunderbolt/USB3 Mac Pro just around the corner. So relax, it's coming. Get some work done.
That's because you are talking to dumb consumers (Apple's target customers now are kids who don't know better or technophobes) for whom dumb iPhone appliance does 99% of what they want to do with a "computer". Most don't even need a general purpose computing machine. If you tell them you need actual computer, it stumps them and they just can't imagine anyone doing something that might require more than an iPhone. Having a computer is so 90s and passe and not cool. We are in post PC world you know
Never mind that they are eating content served from powerful servers running on Linux or Windows
My advice to anyone who really has a legitimate need for more computing power: don't wait for Apple. Switch already to Windows/Linux solution and eat your initial costs. Apple really does not care any more for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
How many users is "tons"?
How big is the graphic design industry? How many design firms engage in video production/editing, 3D rendering, print, and web design all in one shop? I don't have an exact number to give you, but I'm guessing you don't either. Suffice it to say the field of graphic design was one of the top growth industries for employment when I graduated in 1987 and it has only grown since, so in absence of an actual number of professionals who use Mac work stations, I'm pretty confident in guessing the number is greater now, than when Apple first offered work stations and did so at a profit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticalOS
The facebook group is weak, but i have sent [email protected] formal and polite letters twice in the last year, on my concerns of apples future commitment to pro users in general. As someone who needs a powerful tower both professionally and recreationally. an imac is not an option, certainly a macbook pro isn't one.
You're a recreational tower user? You mean like 3D games?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario
My advice to anyone who really has a legitimate need for more computing power: don't wait for Apple. Switch already to Windows/Linux solution and eat your initial costs. Apple really does not care any more for us.
Both of those OSs are a pain to work on from a file management, searching, naming, and application association perspective. Mac is so much more fluid and efficient to use for long hours. I can say that with some authority as I have all three platforms sitting on my desk and I am proficient on every one of them. I would build a Hackintosh as my second choice after a Mac Pro. For the type of work I specialize in which is all CS suite applications, nothing touches OS X. Just trying work in text on those other platforms is painful as it is not very precise where the cursor actually will land when you drop into a string or try to select some characters. Plus the fonts do not render as well in my opinion. Furthermore if you want to do any iOS development, you can't do it without OS X.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenThousandThings
But that doesn't have anything to do with the Mac Pro and the server capabilities built into OS X. The difference between Apple today and Sony yesterday is OS X. The iOS is an offshoot of OS X. The Mac Pro and OS X are the foundation on which the whole Apple hardware + software ecosystem is built, from the iPod to the iPhone to the iPad to the iMac to the MacBook to whatever's next. Developing OS X for Intel's high-end processors is essential for staying ahead of the curve -- Apple needs the Mac Pro to do that.
That's right. Eventually tablet devices will be as powerful as towers are today. The iPad is currently 32-bit dual core device but eventually will be 64-bit 12-core like the Mac Pro. By having towers today Apple is in a way developing technologies for future iPads. Not the GUI obviously, but the core os and programmer libraries. By the time they reach the iPad they can be at v3.0 whereas other manufacturers may be deploying more untested code on their tablets.
That's not to say the Mac Pro can not be justified on it's own merits, just that (as you point out) it has benefits outside of just that model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
That's right. Eventually tablet devices will be as powerful as towers are today. The iPad is currently 32-bit dual core device but eventually will be 64-bit 12-core like the Mac Pro. By having towers today Apple is in a way developing technologies for future iPads. Not the GUI obviously, but the core os and programmer libraries. By the time they reach the iPad they can be at v3.0 whereas other manufacturers may be deploying more untested code on their tablets.
That's not to say the Mac Pro can not be justified on it's own merits, just that (as you point out) it has benefits outside of just that model.
And by the time iPad is 12 core 64 bit, 1 TB of RAM, imagine what a box the size of Mac Pro will be able to contain. 1024 core CPUs and video cards capable of rendering 9000x7000 1 hour ultra HD video in matter of seconds and loads of fast storage small device like iPad can only dream of
While that's true, computer power has increased faster than users' needs on average.
20 years ago, the average user really needed a mid-range computer and many needed a very high end computer (actually, they needed more than was available at the time).
Today, the average user can get by with the lowest end computer they can find and most of the rest can easily get by with a mid-range like an iMac. The number who need a high end computer like the Mac Pro has declined significantly.
That's not to say that there isn't a need for a Mac Pro. I fully expect that they will continue to offer it. But I would expect time between upgrades to increase and the emphasis to be placed elsewhere - which is exactly what has happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario
And by the time iPad is 12 core 64 bit, 1 TB of RAM, imagine what a box the size of Mac Pro will be able to contain. 1024 core CPUs and video cards capable of rendering 9000x7000 1 hour ultra HD video in matter of seconds and loads of fast storage small device like iPad can only dream of
Swweeeet...
The interesting thing will be, once that kind of power is attained, if new kinds of applications will come about. Apps compelling enough to reverse the trend towards not having a desktop computer any more.
Currently only pro apps need that kind of power but what if it is simply a lack of imagination in the consumer space. Especially since that is the domain that creative people occupy, it would seem the most likely source. There is a strategic danger perhaps in not maintaining a presence in this space.
It's so slow you need depends?