Assembling stuff on a production line is not such a great life. The US already has the primo Apple jobs - chip, software and industrial design. And for the lower skilled, or people just getting a start in life, there are retail and transport jobs. Don't envy the Chinese, America.
ASCII this is nonsense. Retail or even transport do not match the wage rates seen in manufacturing and never will. It is all about skill level, with many manufacturing jobs requiring significant skills sets beyond standing in a retail shop. I also wonder if you have even been inside a modern production plant in the US.
To put it more bluntly if you are just getting started in life, retail will keep you stuck in a low paying field. Manufacturing on the other hand offers upward mobility as one can through the combination of education and on the job skills building move into better paying occupations. I know many an engineer that got his degree while working in a manufacturing facility for example. More importantly these sorts of people have a better sense of what works it the real world.
In any event it isn't a question of envy when it comes to China. What many really fear is what will happen to the USA if we totally give up on manufacturing. The strength of an economy is directly tied to the ability to produce goods and services. One only has to look to the EU to see what happens when welfare states loose any sense of what keeps an economy going.
How disappointing. I mean seriously, I want Apple products to be made in Australia
How about the answer "our products sell all over the world, and we manufacturer around the world too. We'd like to become MORE international rather than LESS.".
The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world (after Japan lowered theirs last month). Between taxes, state and federal regulations, environmental regulations, soaring energy costs and the fact that they wouldn't break ground on a new factory before the unions would be lined up to bully Apple into some ridiculous deal, it should come as no surprise corporations do what's best to stay in business. And who pays for it when this happens? Us. Businesses are not charities, they are businesses, it is their nature to survive and thrive. Think about stuff like this come November, elect with common sense and look at people's actual experience and character, not mob mentality..
What is it about this fetish of being "made in America?"
It is about the future of the country. An economy can't sustain itself without manufacturing. It is also about having a diversity of occupations so that all people can take part in the economy.
Geez.
Most complex products are "made" across the globe. Why is this made. What is magical or wonderful about every element of a product being made within the boundaries of the U.S.?
It isn't magical at all, it is however all about economics and the continuation of a vibrant and dynamic work force. While I often see people going overboard with their anti China rants one has to admit that in many cases the American work force has been screwed over by the rush to China. In many cases a rush to China that never benefitted the companies involved. In a real sense many American jobs where lost to the herd mentality of the managerial class. It must be noted too that when manufacturing leaves the USA so too do the engineering and mid level management jobs. It isn't simply a discussion about the worker on the production floor, it is him, the structure that supports him and the external businesses supplying that manufacturing job.
In simple terms remove too much manufacturing from an economy and that economy dies.
What is it about this fetish of being "made in America?"
Geez.
Most complex products are "made" across the globe. Why is this made. What is magical or wonderful about every element of a product being made within the boundaries of the U.S.?
It's the economy, stupid. (I'm not actually calling you stupid, that's just the way the saying goes....)
The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world (after Japan lowered theirs last month). Between taxes, state and federal regulations, environmental regulations, soaring energy costs and the fact that they wouldn't break ground on a new factory before the unions would be lined up to bully Apple into some ridiculous deal. And who pays for it when this happens? Us. Think about stuff like this come November, elect with common sense, not mob mentality.
If jerks in Congress would stop blocking recovery and destroying education, Tim could get his wish.
Here in lies the problem, both of you are right that part of our problem is our government. That is the good part; the bad part is that put into a room the two of you would endlessly argue over the right approach to correct the problem.
By the way congress isn't blocking recovery, what it is blocking is stupid moves by the current administration that would make things worst.
One of the worst things we do as a country is focus to much on the people that don't make a difference. That is the welfare or as I like to refer to them the stupid class. The welfare system drains far to much money from the federal and state budgets to do anything to actually help the country. It is about time we let the hopeless suffer and make sure they can't reproduce. One simple fix would be to tie welfare check to ten lashes a week, soon after such a program was implemented there would be far fewer lazy people enrolled in the welfare system! There is nothing more disgusting than the people that have never worked a day in their lives, living high on the hog at the publics expense.
It is about the future of the country. An economy can't sustain itself without manufacturing.
There's no evidence that this is necessarily true. In fact the same kind of thing was said during the decline of agricultural employment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
It is also about having a diversity of occupations so that all people can take part in the economy. It isn't magical at all, it is however all about economics and the continuation of a vibrant and dynamic work force.
Why? Just because? Do you care to provide evidence for your (implied) claim that this is necessary?
The real fact is that in both of the above statements you're limiting your concern to only the U.S. economy. Yes "an economy" needs to make things, but there's no evidence to support the claim that this boundaries of this economy must be within some lines on a map. Secondly, there is a diversity of occupations that all people can take part in, you just seem to be only concerned that those people are not in the U.S. There are tons of people around the world making things for tons of people around the world.
Bottom line: There is no reason to believe (and many reason to not believe, based on a sound understanding of economics) that economic concerns should be limited by some lines on a map.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
While I often see people going overboard with their anti China rants one has to admit that in many cases the American work force has been screwed over by the rush to China. In many cases a rush to China that never benefitted the companies involved. In a real sense many American jobs where lost to the herd mentality of the managerial class. It must be noted too that when manufacturing leaves the USA so too do the engineering and mid level management jobs. It isn't simply a discussion about the worker on the production floor, it is him, the structure that supports him and the external businesses supplying that manufacturing job. In simple terms remove too much manufacturing from an economy and that economy dies.
Again, I would note that your concern about "the economy" and "the workers" appears to be limited only to the U.S. economy and workers. You should take some time to reflect on that.
The reality is that there isn't a "U.S. economy". There is an economy...that encompasses the entire world. It involves billions of people, many of whom want to do work and elevate their standard of living by being productive. Whether these people are Chinese or American matters little in the whole scheme of things.
The overall global economy (and the people in it) benefits greatly the more people who are brought into the economy, the more trade and exchange that occurs, the more division and specialization of labor that occurs and the more that people work to their comparative advantage.
I cannot emphasize that last sentence enough.
At the present time, the people of China have a comparative advantage in assembling goods. In the future it might be some other people (perhaps in Africa). At the present time many North American people have a comparative advantage in things like designing products (among other things). This, of course, is simplistic because we're speaking in broad terms about large swaths of people. Arguably it is not countries that necessarily have a comparative advantage it is people. Perhaps a collection of people in the form of a company. For example, Apple as a comparative advantage in designing products while Foxconn has a comparative advantage in assembling products.
The world benefits the more people are brought into productive economic activity and trade with everyone. And people suffer the more narrow the extent of trade. THAT is the economic reality. You want a couple of examples of this? Look at the U.S. now as compared to 50 or 100 years ago. The people of the U.S. are unquestionably better off now. A significant factor in that has been the expanded amount of trade it engages in as more and more countries have been drawn into economic activity and trade. Or, for counter examples...look at what happens to countries that are trade constrained (whether self imposed or externally imposed): Cuba, North Korea, the former Soviet bloc countries, even Africa, Iraq, etc. You see it isn't manufacturing per se...it is economic activity and trade more generally. Or better yet, take this whole "we need to make it ourselves" thing to its most logical extreme...you make everything for yourself and never, ever "outsource" manufacturing of any of the good you use to a "foreigner" (someone outside your family or household). Would you be richer or poorer?
Assembling stuff on a production line is not such a great life. The US already has the primo Apple jobs - chip, software and industrial design. And for the lower skilled, or people just getting a start in life, there are retail and transport jobs. Don't envy the Chinese, America.
Good point. I read somewhere recently that the auto workers retired early for a reason. They loathed their jobs.
In any event it isn't a question of envy when it comes to China. What many really fear is what will happen to the USA if we totally give up on manufacturing. The strength of an economy is directly tied to the ability to produce goods and services. One only has to look to the EU to see what happens when welfare states loose any sense of what keeps an economy going.
If you value manufacturing jobs so much, it is possible for a developed country to have such jobs: Germany did it. But the way they did it was the government and companies and unions all agreeing to keep wages suppressed for the last decade. Do Americans have that sort of willpower?
Labor costs aside. China controls the vast majority of rare earth elements needed in complex electronics. They only export so much. Thus, you have to build in china to have access to them.
US has lots of rare earth elements. They are too expensive to mine basically because strip mining is the way it is done and the environmental damage needs to be cleaned up afterwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by universeman
Jobs was right - the manufacturing jobs aren't coming back, even if manufacturing comes back to America, because the only way mass manufacturing can exist in America is if it is highly automated, meaning lots of robots and few humans on the factory floor.
Labor costs in the USA are just too high, which is why Foxconn is expanding in Brazil and elsewhere, not here.
It might be worth considering building the actual robots as an industry that could reestablish the US as a manufacturing center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus
Only if we continue to allow the federal government to over regulate and fix the cost of labor.
Hell with real unemployment at ~20% you would think that the government would get the memo.
The government cannot fix anything. Their hands are tied by the two party duopoly and everything they try just makes matters worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
Assembling stuff on a production line is not such a great life. The US already has the primo Apple jobs - chip, software and industrial design. And for the lower skilled, or people just getting a start in life, there are retail and transport jobs. Don't envy the Chinese, America.
My concern is that we are not capable of sustainability without the industrial base. Soon the US will be completely dependent on China. We won't be able to build an airplane or a car without China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla
If jerks in Congress would stop blocking recovery and destroying education, Tim could get his wish.
Pop culture is what is destroying education in this country. People growing up in disadvantaged neighborhoods would rather have 20 tattoos and 20" rims than a scholarship.
Jobs was right - the manufacturing jobs aren't coming back, even if manufacturing comes back to America, because the only way mass manufacturing can exist in America is if it is highly automated, meaning lots of robots and few humans on the factory floor.
Labor costs in the USA are just too high, which is why Foxconn is expanding in Brazil and elsewhere, not here.
I agree. The jobs aren't coming back any time soon. There is no infrastructure to build a base and support it in the long term.
Labor costs are high, but I don't see that as a bad thing. We want skilled workers who are treated well. The standards in China aren't near the standards of comfort, safety and fairness expected from an American worker force. And we shouldn't have to expect less just for the luxury of having a job.
Look at the U.S. now as compared to 50 or 100 years ago. The people of the U.S. are unquestionably better off now.
They are? I don't want to get too political but I think it's far from obvious that we're better off now than in say the 1950's. We might make more on average but that's just inflation. The percentage of our earning we spend on life essentials (gas, home, college, etc) has risen dramatically.
That's absolutely true. There is still a lot of manufacturing done in the U.S. and no signs that it will end soon.
HOWEVER, I think the point is that the high volume manufacture of consumer products is greatly diminished. I don't know if it's still true, but at one point, more than 1/3 of everything on Walmart's shelves was made in China. Some products are just not available from US manufacturers in volume any more. For example, try to find a high volume, competitively priced fishing rod. Or patio furniture (those were the last two purchases where I went out of my way to buy American). It's clearly a mis-statement to say that nothing is manufactured in the US any more, but looking at our balance of trade, it's clear that we're importing a huge percentage.
If you value manufacturing jobs so much, it is possible for a developed country to have such jobs: Germany did it. But the way they did it was the government and companies and unions all agreeing to keep wages suppressed for the last decade. Do Americans have that sort of willpower?
As stated before (repeatedly), labor rates alone won't do it. Even if American labor were free, many products would not be competitive if manufactured here. Just a few examples:
- Taxes. US federal taxes are among the highest in the world. Add in state and local income taxes as well as property taxes, social security contribution (not included in our tax rates, but generally included in other countries), unemployment insurance, etc, etc, etc and our corporations pay far, far more to the government here than just about anywhere else.
- Legal. Lawsuits are incredibly expensive and time consuming. At one time, I read that 1/2 of the cost of manufacturing ladders was insurance and legal. That sounds like an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
- Infrastructure. We don't have the readily available supply chains that are available in China, for example.
- Labor availability. In China, if you need 10,000 workers, you can have them in a week. Not so here.
- Worker motivation. Like it or not, the work ethic here is not what it once was
- Environmental. Environmental rules add (both directly and indirectly) immensely to the cost of many products.
- OSHA regulations. While few people would argue that there should be no regulation, some OSHA rules are clearly over the top
- State rights. Particularly in respect to things like regulations, it's difficult to set up multiple factories without modifying them to match local requirements. That adds cost and complexity.
And so on. It really isn't hard to identify plenty of more reasons why manufacturing in the U.S. is far more expensive than elsewhere - even ignoring hourly labor rates.
They are? I don't want to get too political but I think it's far from obvious that we're better off now than in say the 1950's. We might make more on average but that's just inflation. The percentage of our earning we spend on life essentials (gas, home, college, etc) has risen dramatically.
Then you're not paying attention. It is not "just inflation" (though that is certainly bad).
HOWEVER, I think the point is that the high volume manufacture of consumer products is greatly diminished. I don't know if it's still true, but at one point, more than 1/3 of everything on Walmart's shelves was made in China. Some products are just not available from US manufacturers in volume any more. For example, try to find a high volume, competitively priced fishing rod. Or patio furniture (those were the last two purchases where I went out of my way to buy American). It's clearly a mis-statement to say that nothing is manufactured in the US any more, but looking at our balance of trade, it's clear that we're importing a huge percentage.
OK. So? Why does it matter? The reality you're seeing is that U.S. manufacturing has evolved from lower value to higher value items. This is a GOOD thing and we should hope it keeps happening (and it probably will unless Washington keeps trying to wreck the country).
Labor costs are high, but I don't see that as a bad thing. We want skilled workers who are treated well. The standards in China aren't near the standards of comfort, safety and fairness expected from an American worker force. And we shouldn't have to expect less just for the luxury of having a job.
It's not necessary to lower wages to the level of China, since US factories are far more efficient anyway. It is however necessary to not go silly.
If you notice...the plants in the US are in right to work states. Jobs always said if there were any plants coming back to the US..they would be in those states. Union has killed the tool and die industry..not the CEO's. There are still plenty of trade schools that will teach the trade..but most jobs were in the union market and those dried up. Totally their fault.
That's because most of them are union and would never have the oppertunity to work for Apple in the first place. It is well known and proven here that Apple only manufactures in right to work states in the US. Jobs insisted on it.
Comments
ASCII this is nonsense. Retail or even transport do not match the wage rates seen in manufacturing and never will. It is all about skill level, with many manufacturing jobs requiring significant skills sets beyond standing in a retail shop. I also wonder if you have even been inside a modern production plant in the US.
To put it more bluntly if you are just getting started in life, retail will keep you stuck in a low paying field. Manufacturing on the other hand offers upward mobility as one can through the combination of education and on the job skills building move into better paying occupations. I know many an engineer that got his degree while working in a manufacturing facility for example. More importantly these sorts of people have a better sense of what works it the real world.
In any event it isn't a question of envy when it comes to China. What many really fear is what will happen to the USA if we totally give up on manufacturing. The strength of an economy is directly tied to the ability to produce goods and services. One only has to look to the EU to see what happens when welfare states loose any sense of what keeps an economy going.
+1...
If jerks in Congress would stop blocking recovery and destroying education, Tim could get his wish.
It isn't magical at all, it is however all about economics and the continuation of a vibrant and dynamic work force. While I often see people going overboard with their anti China rants one has to admit that in many cases the American work force has been screwed over by the rush to China. In many cases a rush to China that never benefitted the companies involved. In a real sense many American jobs where lost to the herd mentality of the managerial class. It must be noted too that when manufacturing leaves the USA so too do the engineering and mid level management jobs. It isn't simply a discussion about the worker on the production floor, it is him, the structure that supports him and the external businesses supplying that manufacturing job.
In simple terms remove too much manufacturing from an economy and that economy dies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
What is it about this fetish of being "made in America?"
Geez.
Most complex products are "made" across the globe. Why is this made. What is magical or wonderful about every element of a product being made within the boundaries of the U.S.?
It's the economy, stupid. (I'm not actually calling you stupid, that's just the way the saying goes....)
Here in lies the problem, both of you are right that part of our problem is our government. That is the good part; the bad part is that put into a room the two of you would endlessly argue over the right approach to correct the problem.
By the way congress isn't blocking recovery, what it is blocking is stupid moves by the current administration that would make things worst.
One of the worst things we do as a country is focus to much on the people that don't make a difference. That is the welfare or as I like to refer to them the stupid class. The welfare system drains far to much money from the federal and state budgets to do anything to actually help the country. It is about time we let the hopeless suffer and make sure they can't reproduce. One simple fix would be to tie welfare check to ten lashes a week, soon after such a program was implemented there would be far fewer lazy people enrolled in the welfare system! There is nothing more disgusting than the people that have never worked a day in their lives, living high on the hog at the publics expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
It is about the future of the country. An economy can't sustain itself without manufacturing.
There's no evidence that this is necessarily true. In fact the same kind of thing was said during the decline of agricultural employment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
It is also about having a diversity of occupations so that all people can take part in the economy. It isn't magical at all, it is however all about economics and the continuation of a vibrant and dynamic work force.
Why? Just because? Do you care to provide evidence for your (implied) claim that this is necessary?
The real fact is that in both of the above statements you're limiting your concern to only the U.S. economy. Yes "an economy" needs to make things, but there's no evidence to support the claim that this boundaries of this economy must be within some lines on a map. Secondly, there is a diversity of occupations that all people can take part in, you just seem to be only concerned that those people are not in the U.S. There are tons of people around the world making things for tons of people around the world.
Bottom line: There is no reason to believe (and many reason to not believe, based on a sound understanding of economics) that economic concerns should be limited by some lines on a map.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
While I often see people going overboard with their anti China rants one has to admit that in many cases the American work force has been screwed over by the rush to China. In many cases a rush to China that never benefitted the companies involved. In a real sense many American jobs where lost to the herd mentality of the managerial class. It must be noted too that when manufacturing leaves the USA so too do the engineering and mid level management jobs. It isn't simply a discussion about the worker on the production floor, it is him, the structure that supports him and the external businesses supplying that manufacturing job. In simple terms remove too much manufacturing from an economy and that economy dies.
Again, I would note that your concern about "the economy" and "the workers" appears to be limited only to the U.S. economy and workers. You should take some time to reflect on that.
The reality is that there isn't a "U.S. economy". There is an economy...that encompasses the entire world. It involves billions of people, many of whom want to do work and elevate their standard of living by being productive. Whether these people are Chinese or American matters little in the whole scheme of things.
The overall global economy (and the people in it) benefits greatly the more people who are brought into the economy, the more trade and exchange that occurs, the more division and specialization of labor that occurs and the more that people work to their comparative advantage.
I cannot emphasize that last sentence enough.
At the present time, the people of China have a comparative advantage in assembling goods. In the future it might be some other people (perhaps in Africa). At the present time many North American people have a comparative advantage in things like designing products (among other things). This, of course, is simplistic because we're speaking in broad terms about large swaths of people. Arguably it is not countries that necessarily have a comparative advantage it is people. Perhaps a collection of people in the form of a company. For example, Apple as a comparative advantage in designing products while Foxconn has a comparative advantage in assembling products.
The world benefits the more people are brought into productive economic activity and trade with everyone. And people suffer the more narrow the extent of trade. THAT is the economic reality. You want a couple of examples of this? Look at the U.S. now as compared to 50 or 100 years ago. The people of the U.S. are unquestionably better off now. A significant factor in that has been the expanded amount of trade it engages in as more and more countries have been drawn into economic activity and trade. Or, for counter examples...look at what happens to countries that are trade constrained (whether self imposed or externally imposed): Cuba, North Korea, the former Soviet bloc countries, even Africa, Iraq, etc. You see it isn't manufacturing per se...it is economic activity and trade more generally. Or better yet, take this whole "we need to make it ourselves" thing to its most logical extreme...you make everything for yourself and never, ever "outsource" manufacturing of any of the good you use to a "foreigner" (someone outside your family or household). Would you be richer or poorer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
Assembling stuff on a production line is not such a great life. The US already has the primo Apple jobs - chip, software and industrial design. And for the lower skilled, or people just getting a start in life, there are retail and transport jobs. Don't envy the Chinese, America.
Good point. I read somewhere recently that the auto workers retired early for a reason. They loathed their jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
In any event it isn't a question of envy when it comes to China. What many really fear is what will happen to the USA if we totally give up on manufacturing. The strength of an economy is directly tied to the ability to produce goods and services. One only has to look to the EU to see what happens when welfare states loose any sense of what keeps an economy going.
If you value manufacturing jobs so much, it is possible for a developed country to have such jobs: Germany did it. But the way they did it was the government and companies and unions all agreeing to keep wages suppressed for the last decade. Do Americans have that sort of willpower?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlaw99
Labor costs aside. China controls the vast majority of rare earth elements needed in complex electronics. They only export so much. Thus, you have to build in china to have access to them.
US has lots of rare earth elements. They are too expensive to mine basically because strip mining is the way it is done and the environmental damage needs to be cleaned up afterwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by universeman
Jobs was right - the manufacturing jobs aren't coming back, even if manufacturing comes back to America, because the only way mass manufacturing can exist in America is if it is highly automated, meaning lots of robots and few humans on the factory floor.
Labor costs in the USA are just too high, which is why Foxconn is expanding in Brazil and elsewhere, not here.
It might be worth considering building the actual robots as an industry that could reestablish the US as a manufacturing center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus
Only if we continue to allow the federal government to over regulate and fix the cost of labor.
Hell with real unemployment at ~20% you would think that the government would get the memo.
The government cannot fix anything. Their hands are tied by the two party duopoly and everything they try just makes matters worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
Assembling stuff on a production line is not such a great life. The US already has the primo Apple jobs - chip, software and industrial design. And for the lower skilled, or people just getting a start in life, there are retail and transport jobs. Don't envy the Chinese, America.
My concern is that we are not capable of sustainability without the industrial base. Soon the US will be completely dependent on China. We won't be able to build an airplane or a car without China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla
If jerks in Congress would stop blocking recovery and destroying education, Tim could get his wish.
Pop culture is what is destroying education in this country. People growing up in disadvantaged neighborhoods would rather have 20 tattoos and 20" rims than a scholarship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by universeman
Jobs was right - the manufacturing jobs aren't coming back, even if manufacturing comes back to America, because the only way mass manufacturing can exist in America is if it is highly automated, meaning lots of robots and few humans on the factory floor.
Labor costs in the USA are just too high, which is why Foxconn is expanding in Brazil and elsewhere, not here.
I agree. The jobs aren't coming back any time soon. There is no infrastructure to build a base and support it in the long term.
Labor costs are high, but I don't see that as a bad thing. We want skilled workers who are treated well. The standards in China aren't near the standards of comfort, safety and fairness expected from an American worker force. And we shouldn't have to expect less just for the luxury of having a job.
But, maybe more importantly, iPhones and iPads aside, U.S. manufacturing isn't as dead as everyone thinks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
Look at the U.S. now as compared to 50 or 100 years ago. The people of the U.S. are unquestionably better off now.
They are? I don't want to get too political but I think it's far from obvious that we're better off now than in say the 1950's. We might make more on average but that's just inflation. The percentage of our earning we spend on life essentials (gas, home, college, etc) has risen dramatically.
That's absolutely true. There is still a lot of manufacturing done in the U.S. and no signs that it will end soon.
HOWEVER, I think the point is that the high volume manufacture of consumer products is greatly diminished. I don't know if it's still true, but at one point, more than 1/3 of everything on Walmart's shelves was made in China. Some products are just not available from US manufacturers in volume any more. For example, try to find a high volume, competitively priced fishing rod. Or patio furniture (those were the last two purchases where I went out of my way to buy American). It's clearly a mis-statement to say that nothing is manufactured in the US any more, but looking at our balance of trade, it's clear that we're importing a huge percentage.
As stated before (repeatedly), labor rates alone won't do it. Even if American labor were free, many products would not be competitive if manufactured here. Just a few examples:
- Taxes. US federal taxes are among the highest in the world. Add in state and local income taxes as well as property taxes, social security contribution (not included in our tax rates, but generally included in other countries), unemployment insurance, etc, etc, etc and our corporations pay far, far more to the government here than just about anywhere else.
- Legal. Lawsuits are incredibly expensive and time consuming. At one time, I read that 1/2 of the cost of manufacturing ladders was insurance and legal. That sounds like an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.
- Infrastructure. We don't have the readily available supply chains that are available in China, for example.
- Labor availability. In China, if you need 10,000 workers, you can have them in a week. Not so here.
- Worker motivation. Like it or not, the work ethic here is not what it once was
- Environmental. Environmental rules add (both directly and indirectly) immensely to the cost of many products.
- OSHA regulations. While few people would argue that there should be no regulation, some OSHA rules are clearly over the top
- State rights. Particularly in respect to things like regulations, it's difficult to set up multiple factories without modifying them to match local requirements. That adds cost and complexity.
And so on. It really isn't hard to identify plenty of more reasons why manufacturing in the U.S. is far more expensive than elsewhere - even ignoring hourly labor rates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yensid98
They are? I don't want to get too political but I think it's far from obvious that we're better off now than in say the 1950's. We might make more on average but that's just inflation. The percentage of our earning we spend on life essentials (gas, home, college, etc) has risen dramatically.
Then you're not paying attention. It is not "just inflation" (though that is certainly bad).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
HOWEVER, I think the point is that the high volume manufacture of consumer products is greatly diminished. I don't know if it's still true, but at one point, more than 1/3 of everything on Walmart's shelves was made in China. Some products are just not available from US manufacturers in volume any more. For example, try to find a high volume, competitively priced fishing rod. Or patio furniture (those were the last two purchases where I went out of my way to buy American). It's clearly a mis-statement to say that nothing is manufactured in the US any more, but looking at our balance of trade, it's clear that we're importing a huge percentage.
OK. So? Why does it matter? The reality you're seeing is that U.S. manufacturing has evolved from lower value to higher value items. This is a GOOD thing and we should hope it keeps happening (and it probably will unless Washington keeps trying to wreck the country).
Quote:
Originally Posted by yensid98
Labor costs are high, but I don't see that as a bad thing. We want skilled workers who are treated well. The standards in China aren't near the standards of comfort, safety and fairness expected from an American worker force. And we shouldn't have to expect less just for the luxury of having a job.
It's not necessary to lower wages to the level of China, since US factories are far more efficient anyway. It is however necessary to not go silly.
If you notice...the plants in the US are in right to work states. Jobs always said if there were any plants coming back to the US..they would be in those states. Union has killed the tool and die industry..not the CEO's. There are still plenty of trade schools that will teach the trade..but most jobs were in the union market and those dried up. Totally their fault.
That's because most of them are union and would never have the oppertunity to work for Apple in the first place. It is well known and proven here that Apple only manufactures in right to work states in the US. Jobs insisted on it.