i still dont understand the argument aganist dust and dirt getting in there. with the card in place, there should be almost no room for anything to get in. . you dont seem to take issue with dirt getting into your uncovered docking port or headphone jack, so why focus on this.
Considering most current smart phones, similarly compared to most pc laptops, they definitely do not design their products with precision. There are bigger gaps, clunkier refinements. Taking this into account, it most certainly would be collecting dust.
while it is true that youll probably never change sim cards in the usa, the same cant be said, nor should it be assumed for the rest of the world.
Granted, I suppose. If paper clips are few and far between in Europe, then I guess swappability would need some other method.
Quote:
as i understand it, the notch was more about locking it in place in push pull config than actually being not able to implemt it.
So that it wouldn't require a door, you mean? Interesting, but I've not noticed any trouble with SD card push-push mechanisms holding smooth cards in place. I wouldn't bring that up except SD cards basically look exactly like a bigger version of a SIM card.
There are plenty of ways to design around this with it not having a notch. Was just an excuse so they could maintain patents. Now no patents / excuses on something that everyone has to use. Win win imo.
How about the fact that those other companies actually had time and money investments in creating those patents? Now Apple wants access to them for free for doing what exactly? For a "design" that couldn't be more obvious? (Hey, let's cut off the excess plastic, patent it and call it new.)
WAIT, what am I thinking?! Why not a push-push tray?
Then you don't need any hole-pokers and both sides get what they want. Except, you know, the side that isn't Apple, because they wanted control over the entire format.
Granted, I suppose. If paper clips are few and far between in Europe, then I guess swappability would need some other method.
So that it wouldn't require a door, you mean? Interesting, but I've not noticed any trouble with SD card push-push mechanisms holding smooth cards in place. I wouldn't bring that up except SD cards basically look exactly like a bigger version of a SIM card.
It's not a big stretch to imagine not having a paperclip handy. It's not exactly a daily essential item for most people.
Why is push-push a horrible idea? The tray is not a huge problem, but having to hunt for a paper clip the few times I've needed to swap SIMs between iPhones with my wife is irritating.
Yeah, try finding a paper clip in Central America. They apparently don't use them in many offices so they are very difficult to find. Even the cell phone store didn't have anything to open my iPad last year. Just a heads up when you travel there, take your own paper clip.
But I don't think I like the idea of having the sim exposed with push-push design. I would be concerned that it might pop out accidentally or collect dust and dirt inside without a cover.
Nokia now says that it will license any essential patents to the standardized 4FF under FRAND terms, meaning any OEM will be able to use or make nano-SIM cards without fear that Nokia will deny licensing and threaten an injunction. That's not to say Nokia's happy — it still calls Apple's card "technically inferior and not suitable for a number of applications."
Here's Nokia's full statement:
Nokia continues to believe that the selected nano-SIM proposal is technically inferior and not suitable for a number of applications, but the ETSI Smart Card Platform Technical Committee has now made its decision. Nokia believes that the existing micro-SIM (3FF) will continue to be a preferred option for many manufacturers and devices and so ultimately the market will decide whether 4FF is widely adopted.
As Nokia believes that ETSI has taken steps to address Nokia's original concerns over the standardization process, we have advised ETSI that we are prepared to license any Nokia patents which are essential to implement the standard, on FRAND terms.
Separately, a Nokia spokesman tells us that he "believes" the selected design was Apple's — not the Motorola-RIM compromise proposed several weeks ago that included an additional notch for so-called "push-push" designs. If true, this means that it'll be more difficult to design nano-SIM phones that use slots to hold the card rather than a tray, but we're still looking for confirmation. More on this as it develops.
The "push-push" design is not necessarily external. It is often implemented under the removable battery (remember those? just because Apple doesn't ave them doesn't mean its not a selling point for other manufacturers). The mobile market is much bigger than in the US. Standards need to be compatible and non-exclusive. IF the notch is there, that will placate European manufacturers as well. Technologically it might (doubtful) reduce the available memory on the card (how much data do you need on a card with a smartphone anyway?? I don't think Apple would care too much), but politically it would score a lot of brownie points with the rest of the cellular industry.
You know… that's just crazy enough to be true. And T comes after S in the alphabet, so it fits the industry standard of "all of our customers are idiots, bigger numbers and later letters mean 'better' products".
No, it doesn't… I've seen several non-tray designs. A tray is certainly not required. I hope Apple did not concede the point, for the sake of everyone else's phones. The iPhone is going to use a tray, but everyone else will default to push-push, which is a horrible idea for this sort of thing.
The HTC One X uses a tray for it's MicroSIM, the Nokia Lumia uses a push in slot for it's microSIM
I suppose this change only has a real benefit to Apple since most of the Android smartphones are larger in size and should have much more room inside to place components than the iPhone does. Apple also needs to shrink their dock connector to get additional space.
Android phones will begin to get smaller again once the next generation LTE radio chips are released for manufacture. By the beginning of next year, half of all the "big ass" phones on the market will be gone and the race to smallest device will begin again.
Nokia now says that it will license any essential patents to the standardized 4FF under FRAND terms, meaning any OEM will be able to use or make nano-SIM cards without fear that Nokia will deny licensing and threaten an injunction. That's not to say Nokia's happy — it still calls Apple's card "technically inferior and not suitable for a number of applications."
Here's Nokia's full statement:
Nokia continues to believe that the selected nano-SIM proposal is technically inferior and not suitable for a number of applications, but the ETSI Smart Card Platform Technical Committee has now made its decision. Nokia believes that the existing micro-SIM (3FF) will continue to be a preferred option for many manufacturers and devices and so ultimately the market will decide whether 4FF is widely adopted.
As Nokia believes that ETSI has taken steps to address Nokia's original concerns over the standardization process, we have advised ETSI that we are prepared to license any Nokia patents which are essential to implement the standard, on FRAND terms.
Separately, a Nokia spokesman tells us that he "believes" the selected design was Apple's — not the Motorola-RIM compromise proposed several weeks ago that included an additional notch for so-called "push-push" designs. If true, this means that it'll be more difficult to design nano-SIM phones that use slots to hold the card rather than a tray, but we're still looking for confirmation. More on this as it develops.
Funny that Nokia's spokesman "believes", I'd think he should know for sure. But if Nokia have promised to license their patents, then the design must be acceptable to them.
Am I right in thinking that if ETSI has adopted Apple's design, and Apple has a patent on the tray that holds it, then nano-sim prices for hardware and patents aren't going down, but likely up in price instead? Apple just added themselves to the revenue-receiving side for all intents. With Nokia offering their essential patents on FRAND terms then Apple will be asking for a piece of the standards money stream too assuming I've understood correctly.
Am I right in thinking that if ETSI has adopted Apple's design, and Apple has a patent on the tray that holds it, then nano-sim prices for hardware and patents aren't going down, but likely up in price instead? Apple just added themselves to the revenue-receiving side for all intents. With Nokia offering their essential patents on FRAND terms then Apple will be asking for a piece of the standards money stream too assuming I've understood correctly.
I wouldn't put too much weight on Apple's tray related patents. As is usual with such simple ideas, the patent should be pretty narrow to be specific enough. I'm sure other phone makers can implement a tray if they want to and not rely on any IP from Apple. HTC One X is one example that likely doesn't use the exact same method that Apple has patented.
The idea of designing a thing that you remove once every two years around a technology designed to facilitate daily removal is laughable.
Never mind the dirt that will get in there… unless you have a door or stupid little piece of rubber over it. Which then forces you to design your phone around the door and the depth of the SIM area is increased to the same as if you had used a tray in the first place. Not to mention that I don't understand how having the hardware needed for the push-push feature could take up less space than a bare slot with pin contacts ready for a tray to be pushed in.
Never mind also that no inset tab is needed for push-push, as evidenced by any push-push SD card implementation. Their design is an excuse to get new patents and have total control. Apple just made the existing design smaller.
Hi. My dear American friend, once again I have to contradict you. You fail to recognize the fact that not every iPhone owner lives in Eastern Texas.
You see, there is that small place called Europe, which represents a negligible market for Apple. That small place, while mainly composed of cavern men pictured on Fox News, happens to have several very different countries; ranging from kingdoms to republics, they also have different telcos. For example, KPN or Vodaphone in the country I work in, Netherlands, Bouygues or Orange or SFR in my own country, France, in which I spend most weekends. I routinely travel to UK or Belgium. Owning a phone number in one country is a paltry 15 euros for 6 months at most, renewable for 5 euros. Needless to say, I have three sims, and swap out twice a week at least. Push push is great.
I hope you have enjoyed learning something you obviously did not expect to exist, and wish you a pleasant flight to Europe if you ever decide to visit us
2. I think Nokia's point is that they don't want to have to have a tray. In Europe SIMs can get swapped out often enough that a push-in-push-eject mechanism makes some sense. Still, I'm sure they'll figure something out.
Europe have sim free or pay as you go everything. The iPhone has been sim free for years in the UK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokenuser
Actually, there is a little more to it than "a notch". The current design needs to slip into a tray that gets inserted into a device.
The "notch" would allow it to slip into a slot, and lock into place until released. That notch is an elegant solution that would have allowed either a tray or a slot loaded SIM solution to be implemented. I hope that Apple conceded the point, and the notch based design won out.
If nothing else it would build good will and greater acceptance of the new standard among the other manufacturers. Lets face it, while Apple might dominate the US smartphone market (and before the fandroids pipe in - we are talking manufacturer of devices, not operating systems) - they are NOT the global leader in cell phone manufacturing. Sometimes you have to play nice with others in the sandbox. Nokia is no longer the big kid in the box, they need to learn to play nicely as well.
Just use a tray like before. The Micro Sim has a notch in the corner so you know which way around it goes, but it doesn't use it to hold it in place because the tray it uses (at least on the iPhone) have walls that go around the card as well as under them.
This is why I think complaining about a notch is just silly when methods to have trays that fit the bill already in use. Not to mention the original mini sims just slid into a clamp inside the phone.
This is why I think complaining about a notch is just silly when methods to have trays that fit the bill already in use. Not to mention the original mini sims just slid into a clamp inside the phone.
<sigh> Yes. You can use a tray. But not every manufacturer wants to use a tray in their design.
The notch being referred to is not for people trying to insert the sim incorrectly. That is a red herring. Don't even bring it up.
This is an Apple forum, and will be Apple biased, but this is not an Apple issue - it is a standards issue. The inclusion of a notch (for locking the sim in place for a push push scenario) allows a manufacturer the option of implementing a slot load, or an internal sim under a clip, or a tray. But as a consumer, I can walk into <insert carrier> store, and purchase a sim that will work with my phone - regardless if it has the Apple logo, one of a bajillion Android logos, or a cheap "feature" phone.
It also means that if my expensive smartphone drops in the pool while I am in the Azores, I can pick up a cheap phone that will accept my existing sim, and be up and running again quickly.
Standards are great when they are used - terrible when they are uniquely tweaked by a vendor.
What are we arguing about anyway? A standard that has kinda sorta but not really announced with a non confirmation by another vendor that they standard might (or might not) be the one submitted by Apple? Save the real arguing for when there are some facts, and not speculation.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo
i still dont understand the argument aganist dust and dirt getting in there. with the card in place, there should be almost no room for anything to get in. . you dont seem to take issue with dirt getting into your uncovered docking port or headphone jack, so why focus on this.
Considering most current smart phones, similarly compared to most pc laptops, they definitely do not design their products with precision. There are bigger gaps, clunkier refinements. Taking this into account, it most certainly would be collecting dust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo
while it is true that youll probably never change sim cards in the usa, the same cant be said, nor should it be assumed for the rest of the world.
Granted, I suppose. If paper clips are few and far between in Europe, then I guess swappability would need some other method.
Quote:
as i understand it, the notch was more about locking it in place in push pull config than actually being not able to implemt it.
So that it wouldn't require a door, you mean? Interesting, but I've not noticed any trouble with SD card push-push mechanisms holding smooth cards in place. I wouldn't bring that up except SD cards basically look exactly like a bigger version of a SIM card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647
Exactly.
There are plenty of ways to design around this with it not having a notch. Was just an excuse so they could maintain patents. Now no patents / excuses on something that everyone has to use. Win win imo.
How about the fact that those other companies actually had time and money investments in creating those patents? Now Apple wants access to them for free for doing what exactly? For a "design" that couldn't be more obvious? (Hey, let's cut off the excess plastic, patent it and call it new.)
WAIT, what am I thinking?! Why not a push-push tray?
Then you don't need any hole-pokers and both sides get what they want. Except, you know, the side that isn't Apple, because they wanted control over the entire format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Granted, I suppose. If paper clips are few and far between in Europe, then I guess swappability would need some other method.
So that it wouldn't require a door, you mean? Interesting, but I've not noticed any trouble with SD card push-push mechanisms holding smooth cards in place. I wouldn't bring that up except SD cards basically look exactly like a bigger version of a SIM card.
It's not a big stretch to imagine not having a paperclip handy. It's not exactly a daily essential item for most people.
Except all SD cards have notches in them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague
Why is push-push a horrible idea? The tray is not a huge problem, but having to hunt for a paper clip the few times I've needed to swap SIMs between iPhones with my wife is irritating.
Yeah, try finding a paper clip in Central America. They apparently don't use them in many offices so they are very difficult to find. Even the cell phone store didn't have anything to open my iPad last year. Just a heads up when you travel there, take your own paper clip.
But I don't think I like the idea of having the sim exposed with push-push design. I would be concerned that it might pop out accidentally or collect dust and dirt inside without a cover.
From the Verge:
Nokia now says that it will license any essential patents to the standardized 4FF under FRAND terms, meaning any OEM will be able to use or make nano-SIM cards without fear that Nokia will deny licensing and threaten an injunction. That's not to say Nokia's happy — it still calls Apple's card "technically inferior and not suitable for a number of applications."
Here's Nokia's full statement:
Separately, a Nokia spokesman tells us that he "believes" the selected design was Apple's — not the Motorola-RIM compromise proposed several weeks ago that included an additional notch for so-called "push-push" designs. If true, this means that it'll be more difficult to design nano-SIM phones that use slots to hold the card rather than a tray, but we're still looking for confirmation. More on this as it develops.
The "push-push" design is not necessarily external. It is often implemented under the removable battery (remember those? just because Apple doesn't ave them doesn't mean its not a selling point for other manufacturers). The mobile market is much bigger than in the US. Standards need to be compatible and non-exclusive. IF the notch is there, that will placate European manufacturers as well. Technologically it might (doubtful) reduce the available memory on the card (how much data do you need on a card with a smartphone anyway?? I don't think Apple would care too much), but politically it would score a lot of brownie points with the rest of the cellular industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
You know… that's just crazy enough to be true. And T comes after S in the alphabet, so it fits the industry standard of "all of our customers are idiots, bigger numbers and later letters mean 'better' products".
No, it doesn't… I've seen several non-tray designs. A tray is certainly not required. I hope Apple did not concede the point, for the sake of everyone else's phones. The iPhone is going to use a tray, but everyone else will default to push-push, which is a horrible idea for this sort of thing.
The HTC One X uses a tray for it's MicroSIM, the Nokia Lumia uses a push in slot for it's microSIM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo
I suppose this change only has a real benefit to Apple since most of the Android smartphones are larger in size and should have much more room inside to place components than the iPhone does. Apple also needs to shrink their dock connector to get additional space.
Android phones will begin to get smaller again once the next generation LTE radio chips are released for manufacture. By the beginning of next year, half of all the "big ass" phones on the market will be gone and the race to smallest device will begin again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60
The HTC One X uses a tray for it's MicroSIM, the Nokia Lumia uses a push in slot for it's microSIM
Exactly, see? Thanks for the examples.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
From the Verge:
Nokia now says that it will license any essential patents to the standardized 4FF under FRAND terms, meaning any OEM will be able to use or make nano-SIM cards without fear that Nokia will deny licensing and threaten an injunction. That's not to say Nokia's happy — it still calls Apple's card "technically inferior and not suitable for a number of applications."
Here's Nokia's full statement:
Separately, a Nokia spokesman tells us that he "believes" the selected design was Apple's — not the Motorola-RIM compromise proposed several weeks ago that included an additional notch for so-called "push-push" designs. If true, this means that it'll be more difficult to design nano-SIM phones that use slots to hold the card rather than a tray, but we're still looking for confirmation. More on this as it develops.
Funny that Nokia's spokesman "believes", I'd think he should know for sure. But if Nokia have promised to license their patents, then the design must be acceptable to them.
Am I right in thinking that if ETSI has adopted Apple's design, and Apple has a patent on the tray that holds it, then nano-sim prices for hardware and patents aren't going down, but likely up in price instead? Apple just added themselves to the revenue-receiving side for all intents. With Nokia offering their essential patents on FRAND terms then Apple will be asking for a piece of the standards money stream too assuming I've understood correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
Am I right in thinking that if ETSI has adopted Apple's design, and Apple has a patent on the tray that holds it, then nano-sim prices for hardware and patents aren't going down, but likely up in price instead? Apple just added themselves to the revenue-receiving side for all intents. With Nokia offering their essential patents on FRAND terms then Apple will be asking for a piece of the standards money stream too assuming I've understood correctly.
I wouldn't put too much weight on Apple's tray related patents. As is usual with such simple ideas, the patent should be pretty narrow to be specific enough. I'm sure other phone makers can implement a tray if they want to and not rely on any IP from Apple. HTC One X is one example that likely doesn't use the exact same method that Apple has patented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
The idea of designing a thing that you remove once every two years around a technology designed to facilitate daily removal is laughable.
Never mind the dirt that will get in there… unless you have a door or stupid little piece of rubber over it. Which then forces you to design your phone around the door and the depth of the SIM area is increased to the same as if you had used a tray in the first place. Not to mention that I don't understand how having the hardware needed for the push-push feature could take up less space than a bare slot with pin contacts ready for a tray to be pushed in.
Never mind also that no inset tab is needed for push-push, as evidenced by any push-push SD card implementation. Their design is an excuse to get new patents and have total control. Apple just made the existing design smaller.
Hi. My dear American friend, once again I have to contradict you. You fail to recognize the fact that not every iPhone owner lives in Eastern Texas.
You see, there is that small place called Europe, which represents a negligible market for Apple. That small place, while mainly composed of cavern men pictured on Fox News, happens to have several very different countries; ranging from kingdoms to republics, they also have different telcos. For example, KPN or Vodaphone in the country I work in, Netherlands, Bouygues or Orange or SFR in my own country, France, in which I spend most weekends. I routinely travel to UK or Belgium. Owning a phone number in one country is a paltry 15 euros for 6 months at most, renewable for 5 euros. Needless to say, I have three sims, and swap out twice a week at least. Push push is great.
I hope you have enjoyed learning something you obviously did not expect to exist, and wish you a pleasant flight to Europe if you ever decide to visit us
PS: Greece needs tourism dollars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga
2. I think Nokia's point is that they don't want to have to have a tray. In Europe SIMs can get swapped out often enough that a push-in-push-eject mechanism makes some sense. Still, I'm sure they'll figure something out.
Europe have sim free or pay as you go everything. The iPhone has been sim free for years in the UK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokenuser
Actually, there is a little more to it than "a notch". The current design needs to slip into a tray that gets inserted into a device.
The "notch" would allow it to slip into a slot, and lock into place until released. That notch is an elegant solution that would have allowed either a tray or a slot loaded SIM solution to be implemented. I hope that Apple conceded the point, and the notch based design won out.
If nothing else it would build good will and greater acceptance of the new standard among the other manufacturers. Lets face it, while Apple might dominate the US smartphone market (and before the fandroids pipe in - we are talking manufacturer of devices, not operating systems) - they are NOT the global leader in cell phone manufacturing. Sometimes you have to play nice with others in the sandbox. Nokia is no longer the big kid in the box, they need to learn to play nicely as well.
Just use a tray like before. The Micro Sim has a notch in the corner so you know which way around it goes, but it doesn't use it to hold it in place because the tray it uses (at least on the iPhone) have walls that go around the card as well as under them.
This is why I think complaining about a notch is just silly when methods to have trays that fit the bill already in use. Not to mention the original mini sims just slid into a clamp inside the phone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89
This is why I think complaining about a notch is just silly when methods to have trays that fit the bill already in use. Not to mention the original mini sims just slid into a clamp inside the phone.
<sigh> Yes. You can use a tray. But not every manufacturer wants to use a tray in their design.
The notch being referred to is not for people trying to insert the sim incorrectly. That is a red herring. Don't even bring it up.
This is an Apple forum, and will be Apple biased, but this is not an Apple issue - it is a standards issue. The inclusion of a notch (for locking the sim in place for a push push scenario) allows a manufacturer the option of implementing a slot load, or an internal sim under a clip, or a tray. But as a consumer, I can walk into <insert carrier> store, and purchase a sim that will work with my phone - regardless if it has the Apple logo, one of a bajillion Android logos, or a cheap "feature" phone.
It also means that if my expensive smartphone drops in the pool while I am in the Azores, I can pick up a cheap phone that will accept my existing sim, and be up and running again quickly.
Standards are great when they are used - terrible when they are uniquely tweaked by a vendor.
What are we arguing about anyway? A standard that has kinda sorta but not really announced with a non confirmation by another vendor that they standard might (or might not) be the one submitted by Apple? Save the real arguing for when there are some facts, and not speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR
Oh, I'm really, really concerned about that missing notch.
I can definitely see myself accidentally sticking it in my eye without that.
The sky is falling!
Watch out, while you are blinded by sticking it in your eyes, Tim Cook might steal your french fries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson
Watch out, while you are blinded by sticking it in your eyes, Tim Cook might steal your french fries.
Have I missed something somewhere? When did "Tim Cook wants my fries" become the new "take a picture of an unreleased product in an elevator"?
Not True, the micro sim cards are starting to appear in Android as well...everyone is about saving space for more battery etc...