You're certain of a lot of things considering you're a forum moderator and not paid for manufacturing expertise!
Care to explain why I'm wrong, then, instead of just saying, "No, you're wrong." I don't imagine there's any way to actually bring back jobs, but we ought to be thinking of actual ideas rather than shooting each other in the foot.
Care to explain why I'm wrong, then, instead of just saying, "No, you're wrong." I don't imagine there's any way to actually bring back jobs, but we ought to be thinking of actual ideas rather than shooting each other in the foot.
I'm not going to talk out of my ass and pretend to know something that I don't, unlike you.
I do know the facts - phones are not manufactured by robots. Thus it is not as good of an option as doing it by hand. Whatever the possible reasons are, we will CERTAINLY never know which is actually the cause.
The logistics are the deal breakers here. It's more efficient to ship fully-assembled products from Asia to end-users and Apple Stores around the world. Because most of the components are made in Asia. And the component makers are moving their factories closer to the final assembly plants for even greater efficiency.
This is the main point that most of the posts above are missing. It's not about wages, environmental regulations, unions and such which are most small (less than 15% of US labor is unionized, for instance). There is no efficient supply chain that can achieve the scale, speed, and reliability that Asia has to sustain this type of manufacturing in the US.
How green is it to use tons of fuel to bring goods from overseas, or not monitor how manufacturing byproduct chemicals are disposed or, processed. If California was going to have environmental integrity, they would not allow any goods into the State that did not match in-State manufcturing standards.
Shipping stuff by ship is (relatively) super green. For example, it is more carbon-efficient to ship, say, a ton of goods from China to the US coasts (East or West, doesn't matter) than it is to send it by truck even halfway across the US.
I do know the facts - phones are not manufactured by robots. Thus it is not as good of an option as doing it by hand. Whatever the possible reasons are, we will CERTAINLY never know which is actually the cause.
So instead of trying to find out, you relegate that to the "something I'll never know and therefore should berate others about trying to know" department.
So instead of trying to find out, you relegate that to the "something I'll never know and therefore should berate others about trying to know" department.
What's happening on this thread is not "trying to find out" - it's raw conjecture and worse than a waste of time because there is no way to tell if a given idea is more or less right than another, and if a consensus is reached it can only give false hope of a solution because those voting on the consensus are equally ignorant.
What's happening on this thread is not "trying to find out" - it's raw conjecture and worse than a waste of time because there is no way to tell if a given idea is more or less right than another, and if a consensus is reached it can only give false hope of a solution because those voting on the consensus are equally ignorant.
In my opinion, at least, that's better than thinking, "it does not happen, therefore it cannot happen".
Shipping stuff by ship is (relatively) super green. For example, it is more carbon-efficient to ship, say, a ton of goods from China to the US coasts (East or West, doesn't matter) than it is to send it by truck even halfway across the US.
If it's going by ship, there's not that much difference.
If you were to assemble an item in the U.S., it doesn't really matter if you ship all the components from China to here and assemble them or assemble all the components in China and then ship the final product here.
The U.S. needs to create an industrial zone exempt from minimum wage laws and anti-business bureaucracy. That would bring manufacturers back.
on the contrary. those laws are what needs to never be messed with. same with required breaks, hours limits etc.
What we don't perhaps need is unions. They are great for something like the film industry where I can literally have 3 different employers in a week. But often with other business they are just sucking up employees money in dues for things that the laws actually cover.
But all that is really beside the point because that's not the real issue. Access to rare earth metals and access to trained workers is the bigger problem. Even where there are training programs our society has gotten into this idea that vocational degrees mean you are a lazy moron who couldn't cut it in college. People need to get over this attitude and fast. The blue collar worker isn't a moron, lazy etc. Many of them are very smart and they actually like doing that kind of work. So let them. Anything is better than another slob at home collecting welfare. people will be happier and we'll have less students wasting time and money at college getting degrees they don't want only to end up tending bar etc anyway.
Transportation of all the stuff they need to the US would be incredibly expensive.
Not to mention that the bulk of the needed rare earth minerals is in China and I'm not sure they would let raw materials out of the country. At least not for crazy crazy high prices. It's a way to keep the jobs there.
Which is why Cook said he'd like it but he didn't say it was definitely happening. His job until Steve was logistics and supply contracts, he knows the score on these matters better than anyone
Not to mention that the bulk of the needed rare earth minerals is in China and I'm not sure they would let raw materials out of the country. At least not for crazy crazy high prices. It's a way to keep the jobs there.
Rare earth minerals are not actually rare, the name just refers to their position on the periodic table. There are massive quantities in the US and other western countries such as Canada and Australia. Production was ceased in these countries only because China was cheaper, not because they ran out. If China starts playing games, Western countries will simply reopen their mines.
Are you volunteering to work for less than minimum wage? Are you willing to take up the slack for the infrastructure demands that a low-wage workforce puts on its community?
I would pefer a zone located on the border with mexico. Pay would not have to be :pbelow minimum wage. It is the scheduling, overtime, labor relations, intrusive environmental regs, obsessive safety, and the work ethic that are the challenges. I would not like a complete abandonment of all regulation. Simply a safe clean place to work hard and accumulate capital for the rest of your life. Imagine a place where you could work 70 hours a week for 5 years and accumulate $100,000 in savings. Kind of a reverse of going to college. learn a trade, live in a dorm, eat cheap, and save money. A young person with $100,000 and an open career ahead could live debt free and invest wisely from the age of 23 on and be financially independant in 20 years. Many of those might waste that money, but could learn from their mistakes and start over. It is pretty hard to start over when you are 45 or 50.
Once again everyone here is missing the point. The objective cannot, nor should it be to move Chinese manufacturing to the U.S. It should also not to try and replicate what is being done in China. It is not feasable without probably decades of effort. In the end if you did move mfg. here would the end result be sucessful? Apple has proven and demonstrated that mfg. can be done places other than China. Cost studies have already been done to determine what Apple products would cost if made here. The premium is not as much as one might expect. All Apple really needs to do is set up a small operation here in the U.S. that would produce a small number of products at a higher price for those willing to pay the premium to say they bought American. If it fails because Americans talk a big game and would not actually pay for American made, than issue is settled. If it suceeded and grew, than maybe in 15 to 20 years the majority of Apple products consumed by "patriotic Americans" will be made here. Apple certainly has enough money to conduct a grand experiment. I find that when it comes to patriotism most people's actions do not match their rhetoric. We talk big. Maybe Tim Cook is just trying to spin in a way that allows Americia to maintain it's illusions.
I want the iPhone and iMacs and iPads assembled in those countries that enjoy a competitive advantage in doing so. My standard of living will go up accordingly when I enjoy buying high quality products at competitive prices, enriching the corporation that created said products.
Steve Jobs is more blunt than Cook. Those jobs are not coming back. Neither is the horse and buggy. Let's enjoy the benefits of that dynamic.
The only thing stopping Apple from manufacturing products in the USA is the board and management deciding not to do it. It is 100% about maximizing profit. It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to better the people in the USA who purchase their products.
The people running Apple are brilliant and could solve all of the barriers of such a task. The thing is that they would need to either earn less profit or raise prices. They won't do either as long as they are driven solely by maximizing profit at all costs. Would Apple share holders vote to move all production to the USA as quickly as possible over a ten year period? I think the answer would be no. Investment firms own lots of Apple stock and so do other corporations. I wonder what percentage of stock is owned by individuals who would actually participate in a vote. If they outnumbered the institutional investors would they vote for such a change? I also think the answer would be no.
The only way corporations will move manufacturing back to the USA is through voters backing a law in congress that taxes importation of foreign manufactured goods. There will be no altruistic moves done by any corporation to assist the citizens of the USA.
Shipping components in bulk from other nations to the USA would be cheaper than shipping the same amount of components in a finished package. Thousands of parts could be shipped in the space of one crate which is one package. That would save on many of the costs of shipping. Final packaging could also be made in the USA creating more jobs. Already there are parts manufacturers shipping their components to Foxconn assembly plants. Those things could just be shipped to the USA for assembly instead of Foxconn.
China created a regulation that prevents valuable Rare Earth minerals from leaving the country as ore. All Rare Earth must be manufactured into something before it can leave China. Such minerals are rare in the world. Eventually China will begin to run out of them. Several mining companies know where to find them in the USA. All they need is for the price to go up high enough to begin profitable mining operations.
There is a difference between Atlas Shrugged and what corporate greed is perpetrating on the citizens of the USA today. Government and corporations are in league to favor corporations, not citizens. Until that ends I'll support unions 100%.
The only thing stopping Apple from manufacturing products in the USA is the board and management deciding not to do it. It is 100% about maximizing profit. It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to better the people in the USA who purchase their products.
That's absurd.
First, only 1/3 of Apple's sales were in the United States last quarter. This belief that it's an American company is badly misguided.
Second, Apple has an obligation to its shareholders. Instead of making a profit for the shareholders, your suggestion would probably throw them well into the red and jeopardize the company. Really nice - throw away the retirement money of millions of retirees because of your biased views.
Once again everyone here is missing the point. The objective cannot, nor should it be to move Chinese manufacturing to the U.S. It should also not to try and replicate what is being done in China. It is not feasable without probably decades of effort. In the end if you did move mfg. here would the end result be sucessful? Apple has proven and demonstrated that mfg. can be done places other than China. Cost studies have already been done to determine what Apple products would cost if made here. The premium is not as much as one might expect. All Apple really needs to do is set up a small operation here in the U.S. that would produce a small number of products at a higher price for those willing to pay the premium to say they bought American. If it fails because Americans talk a big game and would not actually pay for American made, than issue is settled. If it suceeded and grew, than maybe in 15 to 20 years the majority of Apple products consumed by "patriotic Americans" will be made here. Apple certainly has enough money to conduct a grand experiment. I find that when it comes to patriotism most people's actions do not match their rhetoric. We talk big. Maybe Tim Cook is just trying to spin in a way that allows Americia to maintain it's illusions.
One word advice for your next post, if you actually want someone to read what you write: paragraphs.
The only thing stopping Apple from manufacturing products in the USA is the board and management deciding not to do it. It is 100% about maximizing profit. It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to better the people in the USA who purchase their products.
The people running Apple are brilliant and could solve all of the barriers of such a task. The thing is that they would need to either earn less profit or raise prices. They won't do either as long as they are driven solely by maximizing profit at all costs. Would Apple share holders vote to move all production to the USA as quickly as possible over a ten year period? I think the answer would be no. Investment firms own lots of Apple stock and so do other corporations. I wonder what percentage of stock is owned by individuals who would actually participate in a vote. If they outnumbered the institutional investors would they vote for such a change? I also think the answer would be no.
The only way corporations will move manufacturing back to the USA is through voters backing a law in congress that taxes importation of foreign manufactured goods. There will be no altruistic moves done by any corporation to assist the citizens of the USA.
Shipping components in bulk from other nations to the USA would be cheaper than shipping the same amount of components in a finished package. Thousands of parts could be shipped in the space of one crate which is one package. That would save on many of the costs of shipping. Final packaging could also be made in the USA creating more jobs. Already there are parts manufacturers shipping their components to Foxconn assembly plants. Those things could just be shipped to the USA for assembly instead of Foxconn.
China created a regulation that prevents valuable Rare Earth minerals from leaving the country as ore. All Rare Earth must be manufactured into something before it can leave China. Such minerals are rare in the world. Eventually China will begin to run out of them. Several mining companies know where to find them in the USA. All they need is for the price to go up high enough to begin profitable mining operations.
There is a difference between Atlas Shrugged and what corporate greed is perpetrating on the citizens of the USA today. Government and corporations are in league to favor corporations, not citizens. Until that ends I'll support unions 100%.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj
You're certain of a lot of things considering you're a forum moderator and not paid for manufacturing expertise!
Care to explain why I'm wrong, then, instead of just saying, "No, you're wrong." I don't imagine there's any way to actually bring back jobs, but we ought to be thinking of actual ideas rather than shooting each other in the foot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Care to explain why I'm wrong, then, instead of just saying, "No, you're wrong." I don't imagine there's any way to actually bring back jobs, but we ought to be thinking of actual ideas rather than shooting each other in the foot.
I'm not going to talk out of my ass and pretend to know something that I don't, unlike you.
I do know the facts - phones are not manufactured by robots. Thus it is not as good of an option as doing it by hand. Whatever the possible reasons are, we will CERTAINLY never know which is actually the cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid
The logistics are the deal breakers here. It's more efficient to ship fully-assembled products from Asia to end-users and Apple Stores around the world. Because most of the components are made in Asia. And the component makers are moving their factories closer to the final assembly plants for even greater efficiency.
This is the main point that most of the posts above are missing. It's not about wages, environmental regulations, unions and such which are most small (less than 15% of US labor is unionized, for instance). There is no efficient supply chain that can achieve the scale, speed, and reliability that Asia has to sustain this type of manufacturing in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellya74u
How green is it to use tons of fuel to bring goods from overseas, or not monitor how manufacturing byproduct chemicals are disposed or, processed. If California was going to have environmental integrity, they would not allow any goods into the State that did not match in-State manufcturing standards.
Shipping stuff by ship is (relatively) super green. For example, it is more carbon-efficient to ship, say, a ton of goods from China to the US coasts (East or West, doesn't matter) than it is to send it by truck even halfway across the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj
I do know the facts - phones are not manufactured by robots. Thus it is not as good of an option as doing it by hand. Whatever the possible reasons are, we will CERTAINLY never know which is actually the cause.
So instead of trying to find out, you relegate that to the "something I'll never know and therefore should berate others about trying to know" department.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So instead of trying to find out, you relegate that to the "something I'll never know and therefore should berate others about trying to know" department.
What's happening on this thread is not "trying to find out" - it's raw conjecture and worse than a waste of time because there is no way to tell if a given idea is more or less right than another, and if a consensus is reached it can only give false hope of a solution because those voting on the consensus are equally ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj
What's happening on this thread is not "trying to find out" - it's raw conjecture and worse than a waste of time because there is no way to tell if a given idea is more or less right than another, and if a consensus is reached it can only give false hope of a solution because those voting on the consensus are equally ignorant.
In my opinion, at least, that's better than thinking, "it does not happen, therefore it cannot happen".
If it's going by ship, there's not that much difference.
If you were to assemble an item in the U.S., it doesn't really matter if you ship all the components from China to here and assemble them or assemble all the components in China and then ship the final product here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb
The U.S. needs to create an industrial zone exempt from minimum wage laws and anti-business bureaucracy. That would bring manufacturers back.
on the contrary. those laws are what needs to never be messed with. same with required breaks, hours limits etc.
What we don't perhaps need is unions. They are great for something like the film industry where I can literally have 3 different employers in a week. But often with other business they are just sucking up employees money in dues for things that the laws actually cover.
But all that is really beside the point because that's not the real issue. Access to rare earth metals and access to trained workers is the bigger problem. Even where there are training programs our society has gotten into this idea that vocational degrees mean you are a lazy moron who couldn't cut it in college. People need to get over this attitude and fast. The blue collar worker isn't a moron, lazy etc. Many of them are very smart and they actually like doing that kind of work. So let them. Anything is better than another slob at home collecting welfare. people will be happier and we'll have less students wasting time and money at college getting degrees they don't want only to end up tending bar etc anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson
Transportation of all the stuff they need to the US would be incredibly expensive.
Not to mention that the bulk of the needed rare earth minerals is in China and I'm not sure they would let raw materials out of the country. At least not for crazy crazy high prices. It's a way to keep the jobs there.
Which is why Cook said he'd like it but he didn't say it was definitely happening. His job until Steve was logistics and supply contracts, he knows the score on these matters better than anyone
"breathtaking" speed and flexibility that could not be matched by an American plant.
Could not be? The laws of physics are different over there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
Not to mention that the bulk of the needed rare earth minerals is in China and I'm not sure they would let raw materials out of the country. At least not for crazy crazy high prices. It's a way to keep the jobs there.
Rare earth minerals are not actually rare, the name just refers to their position on the periodic table. There are massive quantities in the US and other western countries such as Canada and Australia. Production was ceased in these countries only because China was cheaper, not because they ran out. If China starts playing games, Western countries will simply reopen their mines.
I would pefer a zone located on the border with mexico. Pay would not have to be :pbelow minimum wage. It is the scheduling, overtime, labor relations, intrusive environmental regs, obsessive safety, and the work ethic that are the challenges. I would not like a complete abandonment of all regulation. Simply a safe clean place to work hard and accumulate capital for the rest of your life. Imagine a place where you could work 70 hours a week for 5 years and accumulate $100,000 in savings. Kind of a reverse of going to college. learn a trade, live in a dorm, eat cheap, and save money. A young person with $100,000 and an open career ahead could live debt free and invest wisely from the age of 23 on and be financially independant in 20 years. Many of those might waste that money, but could learn from their mistakes and start over. It is pretty hard to start over when you are 45 or 50.
I want the iPhone and iMacs and iPads assembled in those countries that enjoy a competitive advantage in doing so. My standard of living will go up accordingly when I enjoy buying high quality products at competitive prices, enriching the corporation that created said products.
Steve Jobs is more blunt than Cook. Those jobs are not coming back. Neither is the horse and buggy. Let's enjoy the benefits of that dynamic.
The only thing stopping Apple from manufacturing products in the USA is the board and management deciding not to do it. It is 100% about maximizing profit. It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to better the people in the USA who purchase their products.
The people running Apple are brilliant and could solve all of the barriers of such a task. The thing is that they would need to either earn less profit or raise prices. They won't do either as long as they are driven solely by maximizing profit at all costs. Would Apple share holders vote to move all production to the USA as quickly as possible over a ten year period? I think the answer would be no. Investment firms own lots of Apple stock and so do other corporations. I wonder what percentage of stock is owned by individuals who would actually participate in a vote. If they outnumbered the institutional investors would they vote for such a change? I also think the answer would be no.
The only way corporations will move manufacturing back to the USA is through voters backing a law in congress that taxes importation of foreign manufactured goods. There will be no altruistic moves done by any corporation to assist the citizens of the USA.
Shipping components in bulk from other nations to the USA would be cheaper than shipping the same amount of components in a finished package. Thousands of parts could be shipped in the space of one crate which is one package. That would save on many of the costs of shipping. Final packaging could also be made in the USA creating more jobs. Already there are parts manufacturers shipping their components to Foxconn assembly plants. Those things could just be shipped to the USA for assembly instead of Foxconn.
China created a regulation that prevents valuable Rare Earth minerals from leaving the country as ore. All Rare Earth must be manufactured into something before it can leave China. Such minerals are rare in the world. Eventually China will begin to run out of them. Several mining companies know where to find them in the USA. All they need is for the price to go up high enough to begin profitable mining operations.
There is a difference between Atlas Shrugged and what corporate greed is perpetrating on the citizens of the USA today. Government and corporations are in league to favor corporations, not citizens. Until that ends I'll support unions 100%.
That's absurd.
First, only 1/3 of Apple's sales were in the United States last quarter. This belief that it's an American company is badly misguided.
Second, Apple has an obligation to its shareholders. Instead of making a profit for the shareholders, your suggestion would probably throw them well into the red and jeopardize the company. Really nice - throw away the retirement money of millions of retirees because of your biased views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kent909
Once again everyone here is missing the point. The objective cannot, nor should it be to move Chinese manufacturing to the U.S. It should also not to try and replicate what is being done in China. It is not feasable without probably decades of effort. In the end if you did move mfg. here would the end result be sucessful? Apple has proven and demonstrated that mfg. can be done places other than China. Cost studies have already been done to determine what Apple products would cost if made here. The premium is not as much as one might expect. All Apple really needs to do is set up a small operation here in the U.S. that would produce a small number of products at a higher price for those willing to pay the premium to say they bought American. If it fails because Americans talk a big game and would not actually pay for American made, than issue is settled. If it suceeded and grew, than maybe in 15 to 20 years the majority of Apple products consumed by "patriotic Americans" will be made here. Apple certainly has enough money to conduct a grand experiment. I find that when it comes to patriotism most people's actions do not match their rhetoric. We talk big. Maybe Tim Cook is just trying to spin in a way that allows Americia to maintain it's illusions.
One word advice for your next post, if you actually want someone to read what you write: paragraphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels
The only thing stopping Apple from manufacturing products in the USA is the board and management deciding not to do it. It is 100% about maximizing profit. It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to better the people in the USA who purchase their products.
The people running Apple are brilliant and could solve all of the barriers of such a task. The thing is that they would need to either earn less profit or raise prices. They won't do either as long as they are driven solely by maximizing profit at all costs. Would Apple share holders vote to move all production to the USA as quickly as possible over a ten year period? I think the answer would be no. Investment firms own lots of Apple stock and so do other corporations. I wonder what percentage of stock is owned by individuals who would actually participate in a vote. If they outnumbered the institutional investors would they vote for such a change? I also think the answer would be no.
The only way corporations will move manufacturing back to the USA is through voters backing a law in congress that taxes importation of foreign manufactured goods. There will be no altruistic moves done by any corporation to assist the citizens of the USA.
Shipping components in bulk from other nations to the USA would be cheaper than shipping the same amount of components in a finished package. Thousands of parts could be shipped in the space of one crate which is one package. That would save on many of the costs of shipping. Final packaging could also be made in the USA creating more jobs. Already there are parts manufacturers shipping their components to Foxconn assembly plants. Those things could just be shipped to the USA for assembly instead of Foxconn.
China created a regulation that prevents valuable Rare Earth minerals from leaving the country as ore. All Rare Earth must be manufactured into something before it can leave China. Such minerals are rare in the world. Eventually China will begin to run out of them. Several mining companies know where to find them in the USA. All they need is for the price to go up high enough to begin profitable mining operations.
There is a difference between Atlas Shrugged and what corporate greed is perpetrating on the citizens of the USA today. Government and corporations are in league to favor corporations, not citizens. Until that ends I'll support unions 100%.
Oh wow.
You're for real?!