So what you are saying is that they aren't the same ... but you can daisy chain some adapters and kinda sorta make up for it, provided you don't want audio as well?
The definition of "same" gets broken the second you add a qualifying "except" in there, at that point they are no longer "the same".
I can only assume that the intended message was this:
The video component of an HDMI connection is electrically identical to a modern digital DVI connection with encryption.
DVI connections can also exist as an analog signal, or a digital signal without content encryption. On the other hand, HDMI connections must be digital and they must be encrypted.
So, it would be completely accurate to say that HDMI starts out as a strict subset of DVI, and then it has something else (digital audio) patched on over top.
A single adapter (where did your "daisy chain" of multiple adapters come from?) is all that is needed to go from DVI to HDMI.
If the adapter does have a digital audio input, then you could connect it to your Mac's built-in digital audio output, and the resulting HDMI output would be, for all intents and purposes, a complete and perfect replication of a native HDMI port. If the adapter does not have a digital audio input, then the resulting HDMI output would be a perfect replication of the video component, but you'd have to live without the audio component.
@Jragosta: Everyone is allowed their opinion, so stop telling people what to do and let them speak their mind. I see nothing wrong with comments and to be frank your comments sounds like you had a bad day maybe week and going off on people for valid comments. Consumers buy products and allowed to comment if their feel the product is not right!
Yes, people are entitled to their opinion. But they are not entitled to act like their opinion is universal - which is what I was pointing out.
Furthermore, I've been hearing "that's too expensive" about Apple products and peripherals for 20 years and it's getting a little tiring. There's one solution if a product is too expensive - don't buy it.
As I've said on many threads, it's all a matter of expectations vs. what the product appears to have been designed for. Just by reading this thread, it's obvious this product wasn't designed for the majority of you, but that might be a unique demographic. To me, this and the belkin were designed for someone who needs a BYO-kmd(keyboard, mouse, display) and that's pretty much it. Great for the user that just upgraded to a TB MB/Mini that has peripherals they don't feel like parting with just yet and wants to few extra ports. I'd say that's it works for that purpose only, not the power user. I needed a dock for my work PC at home and got a dell port replicator, about the same idea and it was only $129...works as expected. Yes TB tech is expensive because it's new but for that price I can wait until they come down to invest for my personal MB.
OK, maybe they're not going to win a beauty contest, but maybe the target audience is more interested in function than form.
Isn't it funny how the Apple haters claim that Mac users only buy Macs because of the appearance and that they're no different than PCs, but yet they're the first to jump on a product that doesn't meet their standards of beauty. Can you say 'hypocrite'?
Because it sucks? No eSata. No FW800. If I have legacy gear it's going to be FW800 or FW400.
The Belkin is much better with TB passthrough, HDMI and FW800 for $50 more. This is one of those "why bother" product offerings at $250. At a $150 it has value in comparison to the Belkin (much lower cost).
Frankly what I want is a TB docking station with the extra ports and a PCIe slot for $599. Like combining the Belkin with the Sonnet Echo Express (which is $599 but hey).
As I've said on many threads, it's all a matter of expectations vs. what the product appears to have been designed for. Just by reading this thread, it's obvious this product wasn't designed for the majority of you, but that might be a unique demographic. To me, this and the belkin were designed for someone who needs a BYO-kmd(keyboard, mouse, display) and that's pretty much it. Great for the user that just upgraded to a TB MB/Mini that has peripherals they don't feel like parting with just yet and wants to few extra ports. I'd say that's it works for that purpose only, not the power user. I needed a dock for my work PC at home and got a dell port replicator, about the same idea and it was only $129...works as expected. Yes TB tech is expensive because it's new but for that price I can wait until they come down to invest for my personal MB.
Exactly. This is basically a modern day docking station. It's for the business executive who travels with his laptop and wants to use the same computer in the office. Instead of messing around plugging in a keyboard and mouse and monitor and ethernet cable, he simply plugs in a single TB cable. He can leave his desktop in place and when he returns from the road, plugs it in and has a 24" (or whatever) monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc right where he left them.
Considering that many laptop docks were more than $250, the price doesn't seem horribly out of line.
It's not meant to be an uber-geek "does everything" device.
Because it sucks? No eSata. No FW800. If I have legacy gear it's going to be FW800 or FW400.
The Belkin is much better with TB passthrough, HDMI and FW800 for $50 more. This is one of those "why bother" product offerings at $250. At a $150 it has value in comparison to the Belkin (much lower cost).
As always, you seem to be confused about the difference between "I don't like it' and "no one could possibly like it"
I can only assume that the intended message was this:
The video component of an HDMI connection is electrically identical to a modern digital DVI connection with encryption.
DVI connections can also exist as an analog signal, or a digital signal without content encryption. On the other hand, HDMI connections must be digital and they must be encrypted.
So, it would be completely accurate to say that HDMI starts out as a strict subset of DVI, and then it has something else (digital audio) patched on over top.
A single adapter (where did your "daisy chain" of multiple adapters come from?) is all that is needed to go from DVI to HDMI.
If the adapter does have a digital audio input, then you could connect it to your Mac's built-in digital audio output, and the resulting HDMI output would be, for all intents and purposes, a complete and perfect replication of a native HDMI port. If the adapter does not have a digital audio input, then the resulting HDMI output would be a perfect replication of the video component, but you'd have to live without the audio component.
Electrically identical IS NOT THE SAME as Mechanically identical.
Would you say that the US power adapter and the Australian power adapter were the same?
Electrically the are - both take an incoming voltage (and the adapter is smart enough to treat the US 110V vs the Australian 240V differently, but output the same DC for a computer).
Mechanically they are different - as in NOT THE SAME. You need to plug in adapters or swap out cords to make them work.
The "daisy chain" of multiple adapters - a slight exaggeration. HDMI is a subset of the DVI spec as far as video is concerned ... but adding in that digital audio layer turns it into a different beast. To fully realize HDMI, you need to deliver audio as well. Can that be done via the headphone jack? Do you need to use a USB audio dongle to transform into digital audio? Suddenly SAME AS become more complex. HDMI is mechanically different, and (optionally, but optimally in a growing number of cases) has audio capability.
There's nothing wrong with that. If you check motherboard designs they all feature the same. This thing have circuit boards in it too. It was designed to be use with USB cables hence the ports are at the back. This is also meant to stay in one place at all times. Besides, this is a docking station. If you want to use fat flash drives, use the port that's on your laptop. Simples!
Of course there's something wrong with it if it reduces functionality for no good or apparent reason. I'm not too fond of the close arrangement of ports on desktop PCs either, but the backplate is a standard fixed size so there's not really much to do about it.
Another solution would be to just fill up the back with USB ports. Three are not very many.
OK, maybe they're not going to win a beauty contest, but maybe the target audience is more interested in function than form.
Isn't it funny how the Apple haters claim that Mac users only buy Macs because of the appearance and that they're no different than PCs, but yet they're the first to jump on a product that doesn't meet their standards of beauty. Can you say 'hypocrite'?
Aesthetics aside, it has 1 USB3 port, 2 USB2 ports, no HDMI, no FW400/800 port(s), and an ethernet port. For $300. This has zero function because it has zero useable features. This thing is literally garbage and overprice by about $250. Not even worth manufacturing really.
Aesthetics aside, it has 1 USB3 port, 2 USB2 ports, no HDMI, no FW400/800 port(s), and an ethernet port. For $300. This has zero function because it has zero useable features. This thing is literally garbage and overprice by about $250. Not even worth manufacturing really.
Yet another "this device doesn't give a geek wet dreams so it must be garbage" comment.
Let's take a very common usage pattern. An executive who is traveling, but wants to use his same laptop in the office with a separate keyboard and monitor. S/he can leave the desktop keyboard and mouse, ethernet port, and monitor attached to the TB device. When s/he leaves the office, s/he removes one cable. When s/he returns, s/he plugs in one cable. It fulfills the function that docks used to do (and still do for some laptops).
So where does the 'zero function' and 'zero usable features' crap come from?
Yet another "this device doesn't give a geek wet dreams so it must be garbage" comment.
Let's take a very common usage pattern. An executive who is traveling, but wants to use his same laptop in the office with a separate keyboard and monitor. S/he can leave the desktop keyboard and mouse, ethernet port, and monitor attached to the TB device. When s/he leaves the office, s/he removes one cable. When s/he returns, s/he plugs in one cable. It fulfills the function that docks used to do (and still do for some laptops).
So where does the 'zero function' and 'zero usable features' crap come from?
I have the apple bluetooth keyboard and magic trackpad along with a $3 cable connecting my thunderbolt port to an external monitor.
That's nice.
So as soon as you prove that your solution is perfect for everyone else in the world, then you might have a point.
Yep. I find the BT keyboard limiting for my work, and use a full USB keyboard so I get nav keys, and a dedicated keypad. I also use a magic trackpad, but installed a mobee rechargeable battery pack, so it is also tethered via a USB cable most of the time.
Oh noes! I've ruined the wireless desktop aesthetic. Doesn't worry me, and it enhances my productivity.
Your point about no solution being perfect for everybody is well taken.
Not really, this thing is a joke. If it had a pass through TB port and cost something like $125 it might be worth a discussion. Or if it had an internal drive or other redeeming value it might be worth considering. This doesn't even take into account the other shortcomings already pointed out.
I'm trying to resist yet another computer purchase this year and will try to milk my 2008 MBP for a bit longer. Crap like this hitting the market just means that it is much easier to put off the purchase. I want to see TB offer up some real value for the laptop owner.
I agree in a sense, but I don't think there's enough competition or volume to help push the prices down. The Thunderbolt bridge chip probably still costs $80 each.
DVI connections can also exist as an analog signal, or a digital signal without content encryption. On the other hand, HDMI connections must be digital and they must be encrypted.
Encryption is not an absolute requirement to pass a legit HDMI signal, but it's necessary to have if you want to play any copy protected content because the entire chain needs to be encrypted before certain players will play copy protect flagged content. Otherwise a Blackmagic Intensity wouldn't be a legal product.
I have the apple bluetooth keyboard and magic trackpad along with a $3 cable connecting my thunderbolt port to an external monitor.
I don't know if it's possible to have a $3 Thunderbolt cable.
If you have external speakers, a docked drive and hook up a wired network, then this can be beneficial. This could be more useful, being a Matrox product, I'm surprised they don't have a Firewire connection, given a major part of Matrox's business is video encoding and such.
The Belkin has the all-important 2nd Thunderbolt port for chaining in other TB devices. I also prefer having the HDMI port (Belkin) vs. that ugly (and huge) DVI port in this Matrox dock and it just looks better. However, it doesn't have USB 3.0 (grrr...otherwise, it'd be the perfect dock!), which this one does have. Fortunately, Belkin can still do the right thing and incorporate USB 3.0 into its as yet unreleased docking station.
A lot of it depends on what the new Macs will look like. Intel's new "Ivy Bridge" CPUs support USB 3.0 at the chipset level, so Apple would have to disable it, which, quite frankly, would be outrageous considering that Macs are becoming more common. I also read that we might get two Thunderbolt ports on the 15" MBP, which could be helpful in several scenarios, too.
I don't know if it's possible to have a $3 Thunderbolt cable.
Not for a long time. I'm guessing that even at enormous volumes the chips at each end of the cable will never be cheap enough to reach that price point.
Intel has said that it's a long-term goal to move the standard completely to optical cabling, change the connector and eliminate the need for transceivers in the cables. At that point the cables would simply be a strand of glass, similar to a toslink cable.
Comments
OK but a Thunderbolt dock at any price point should have...a Thunderbolt port ! ..and a fire wire too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokenuser
So what you are saying is that they aren't the same ... but you can daisy chain some adapters and kinda sorta make up for it, provided you don't want audio as well?
The definition of "same" gets broken the second you add a qualifying "except" in there, at that point they are no longer "the same".
I can only assume that the intended message was this:
The video component of an HDMI connection is electrically identical to a modern digital DVI connection with encryption.
DVI connections can also exist as an analog signal, or a digital signal without content encryption. On the other hand, HDMI connections must be digital and they must be encrypted.
So, it would be completely accurate to say that HDMI starts out as a strict subset of DVI, and then it has something else (digital audio) patched on over top.
A single adapter (where did your "daisy chain" of multiple adapters come from?) is all that is needed to go from DVI to HDMI.
If the adapter does have a digital audio input, then you could connect it to your Mac's built-in digital audio output, and the resulting HDMI output would be, for all intents and purposes, a complete and perfect replication of a native HDMI port. If the adapter does not have a digital audio input, then the resulting HDMI output would be a perfect replication of the video component, but you'd have to live without the audio component.
Yes, people are entitled to their opinion. But they are not entitled to act like their opinion is universal - which is what I was pointing out.
Furthermore, I've been hearing "that's too expensive" about Apple products and peripherals for 20 years and it's getting a little tiring. There's one solution if a product is too expensive - don't buy it.
As I've said on many threads, it's all a matter of expectations vs. what the product appears to have been designed for. Just by reading this thread, it's obvious this product wasn't designed for the majority of you, but that might be a unique demographic. To me, this and the belkin were designed for someone who needs a BYO-kmd(keyboard, mouse, display) and that's pretty much it. Great for the user that just upgraded to a TB MB/Mini that has peripherals they don't feel like parting with just yet and wants to few extra ports. I'd say that's it works for that purpose only, not the power user. I needed a dock for my work PC at home and got a dell port replicator, about the same idea and it was only $129...works as expected. Yes TB tech is expensive because it's new but for that price I can wait until they come down to invest for my personal MB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
What's with all the whining?
OK, maybe they're not going to win a beauty contest, but maybe the target audience is more interested in function than form.
Isn't it funny how the Apple haters claim that Mac users only buy Macs because of the appearance and that they're no different than PCs, but yet they're the first to jump on a product that doesn't meet their standards of beauty. Can you say 'hypocrite'?
Because it sucks? No eSata. No FW800. If I have legacy gear it's going to be FW800 or FW400.
The Belkin is much better with TB passthrough, HDMI and FW800 for $50 more. This is one of those "why bother" product offerings at $250. At a $150 it has value in comparison to the Belkin (much lower cost).
Frankly what I want is a TB docking station with the extra ports and a PCIe slot for $599. Like combining the Belkin with the Sonnet Echo Express (which is $599 but hey).
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoexpresschassis.html
Or a cube design of this:
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacminiserver.html
Exactly. This is basically a modern day docking station. It's for the business executive who travels with his laptop and wants to use the same computer in the office. Instead of messing around plugging in a keyboard and mouse and monitor and ethernet cable, he simply plugs in a single TB cable. He can leave his desktop in place and when he returns from the road, plugs it in and has a 24" (or whatever) monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc right where he left them.
Considering that many laptop docks were more than $250, the price doesn't seem horribly out of line.
It's not meant to be an uber-geek "does everything" device.
As always, you seem to be confused about the difference between "I don't like it' and "no one could possibly like it"
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison
I can only assume that the intended message was this:
The video component of an HDMI connection is electrically identical to a modern digital DVI connection with encryption.
DVI connections can also exist as an analog signal, or a digital signal without content encryption. On the other hand, HDMI connections must be digital and they must be encrypted.
So, it would be completely accurate to say that HDMI starts out as a strict subset of DVI, and then it has something else (digital audio) patched on over top.
A single adapter (where did your "daisy chain" of multiple adapters come from?) is all that is needed to go from DVI to HDMI.
If the adapter does have a digital audio input, then you could connect it to your Mac's built-in digital audio output, and the resulting HDMI output would be, for all intents and purposes, a complete and perfect replication of a native HDMI port. If the adapter does not have a digital audio input, then the resulting HDMI output would be a perfect replication of the video component, but you'd have to live without the audio component.
Electrically identical IS NOT THE SAME as Mechanically identical.
Would you say that the US power adapter and the Australian power adapter were the same?
Electrically the are - both take an incoming voltage (and the adapter is smart enough to treat the US 110V vs the Australian 240V differently, but output the same DC for a computer).
Mechanically they are different - as in NOT THE SAME. You need to plug in adapters or swap out cords to make them work.
The "daisy chain" of multiple adapters - a slight exaggeration. HDMI is a subset of the DVI spec as far as video is concerned ... but adding in that digital audio layer turns it into a different beast. To fully realize HDMI, you need to deliver audio as well. Can that be done via the headphone jack? Do you need to use a USB audio dongle to transform into digital audio? Suddenly SAME AS become more complex. HDMI is mechanically different, and (optionally, but optimally in a growing number of cases) has audio capability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash-reverse
There's nothing wrong with that. If you check motherboard designs they all feature the same. This thing have circuit boards in it too. It was designed to be use with USB cables hence the ports are at the back. This is also meant to stay in one place at all times. Besides, this is a docking station. If you want to use fat flash drives, use the port that's on your laptop. Simples!Of course there's something wrong with it if it reduces functionality for no good or apparent reason. I'm not too fond of the close arrangement of ports on desktop PCs either, but the backplate is a standard fixed size so there's not really much to do about it.
Another solution would be to just fill up the back with USB ports. Three are not very many.
Holy Crap!
I can't believe how stupid these companies are. Haven't they even done a user case before they built these products?
I guess I have to get into the peripherals market.
I don't use my Thunderbolt port at all, but if I did, having it be used to connect to a hub for USB, Firewire, and eSATA devices would be pretty nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
What's with all the whining?
OK, maybe they're not going to win a beauty contest, but maybe the target audience is more interested in function than form.
Isn't it funny how the Apple haters claim that Mac users only buy Macs because of the appearance and that they're no different than PCs, but yet they're the first to jump on a product that doesn't meet their standards of beauty. Can you say 'hypocrite'?
Aesthetics aside, it has 1 USB3 port, 2 USB2 ports, no HDMI, no FW400/800 port(s), and an ethernet port. For $300. This has zero function because it has zero useable features. This thing is literally garbage and overprice by about $250. Not even worth manufacturing really.
Yet another "this device doesn't give a geek wet dreams so it must be garbage" comment.
Let's take a very common usage pattern. An executive who is traveling, but wants to use his same laptop in the office with a separate keyboard and monitor. S/he can leave the desktop keyboard and mouse, ethernet port, and monitor attached to the TB device. When s/he leaves the office, s/he removes one cable. When s/he returns, s/he plugs in one cable. It fulfills the function that docks used to do (and still do for some laptops).
So where does the 'zero function' and 'zero usable features' crap come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Yet another "this device doesn't give a geek wet dreams so it must be garbage" comment.
Let's take a very common usage pattern. An executive who is traveling, but wants to use his same laptop in the office with a separate keyboard and monitor. S/he can leave the desktop keyboard and mouse, ethernet port, and monitor attached to the TB device. When s/he leaves the office, s/he removes one cable. When s/he returns, s/he plugs in one cable. It fulfills the function that docks used to do (and still do for some laptops).
So where does the 'zero function' and 'zero usable features' crap come from?
I have the apple bluetooth keyboard and magic trackpad along with a $3 cable connecting my thunderbolt port to an external monitor.
That's nice.
So as soon as you prove that your solution is perfect for everyone else in the world, then you might have a point.
Oh noes! I've ruined the wireless desktop aesthetic. Doesn't worry me, and it enhances my productivity.
Your point about no solution being perfect for everybody is well taken.
I agree in a sense, but I don't think there's enough competition or volume to help push the prices down. The Thunderbolt bridge chip probably still costs $80 each.
Encryption is not an absolute requirement to pass a legit HDMI signal, but it's necessary to have if you want to play any copy protected content because the entire chain needs to be encrypted before certain players will play copy protect flagged content. Otherwise a Blackmagic Intensity wouldn't be a legal product.
I don't know if it's possible to have a $3 Thunderbolt cable.
If you have external speakers, a docked drive and hook up a wired network, then this can be beneficial. This could be more useful, being a Matrox product, I'm surprised they don't have a Firewire connection, given a major part of Matrox's business is video encoding and such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
You're not happy unless you're complaining about Mac products.
The ****? It's completely platform-agnostic.
The Belkin has the all-important 2nd Thunderbolt port for chaining in other TB devices. I also prefer having the HDMI port (Belkin) vs. that ugly (and huge) DVI port in this Matrox dock and it just looks better. However, it doesn't have USB 3.0 (grrr...otherwise, it'd be the perfect dock!), which this one does have. Fortunately, Belkin can still do the right thing and incorporate USB 3.0 into its as yet unreleased docking station.
A lot of it depends on what the new Macs will look like. Intel's new "Ivy Bridge" CPUs support USB 3.0 at the chipset level, so Apple would have to disable it, which, quite frankly, would be outrageous considering that Macs are becoming more common. I also read that we might get two Thunderbolt ports on the 15" MBP, which could be helpful in several scenarios, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
I don't know if it's possible to have a $3 Thunderbolt cable.
Not for a long time. I'm guessing that even at enormous volumes the chips at each end of the cable will never be cheap enough to reach that price point.
Intel has said that it's a long-term goal to move the standard completely to optical cabling, change the connector and eliminate the need for transceivers in the cables. At that point the cables would simply be a strand of glass, similar to a toslink cable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
I don't know if it's possible to have a $3 Thunderbolt cable.
This is the one my roommate and I bought:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10428&cs_id=1042802&p_id=5106&seq=1&format=2 ;
We got ours from Ebay for half the price (and free shipping) but monoprice is somewhere people might be more comfortable purchasing from.