Why in the world would they kill a consumer product that sells well and a pro product that sells well (enough for its demographic)
Because repeatedly saying that they sell well doesn't make it true.
to make a worse "pro" product that doesn't appeal to anyone but the "xMac" crowd, which currently consists of about 20 forum members?
Because done right Apple could have a machine or sets of machines that would attract a far wider crowd of users.
Of course a good part of the problem with the Mini is that Apple itself doesn't have a marketing strategy for the Mini in its stores. Walk into any Apple store and try to walk out with a 100% functional Mini solution at a reasonable price. Apple literally has a low end product that it has no way to market as such in its own stores. That is pathetic. So to be honest the Minis abysmal sales are as much Apples fault as it is the devices.
Don't get me wrong here; of Apples three desktop products, the Mini is the only one I have any respect for. It isn't a bad machine nor is it a bad concept, it is just that I really think Apple could do better for the price and make it a better performer. I'm also getting plain tired at Apples ignoring the desktop in general.
I wrote an article you guys should enjoy in AppleMagazine that compared Mac Mini to the G4 Cube. I didn't see such an in-depth comparison before and think both of these Apple products have been interesting and experimental for Apple. I really love both of their designs, but wish Apple would bring the Cube back somehow (obviously, the hardware inside it would be modern). You can read the article here:
Forgive me for being selfish though I think it is just too perfect of a product. I like the looks of it and I like the specs of it sans the graphics but yet the Intel HD 3000 hasn't caused me issues except for D3.
I know it's hard to predict the tech market but I just don't think the headless computer could ever go away do you?
I'd be surprised if it sold well. It's a great computer but Apple are terrible at selling it. If you walked into an Apple Store, even if you were impressed by the $599 price, if you tried to walk out with a full kit, you'd have no choice but to spend:
Mac Mini - $599
27" Cinema display - $999
cheapest keyboard - $49
cheapest mouse - $19.95
total = $1667
Why bother when all of the iMacs are better value than that? While there are shoppers who know how to look for an affordable setup, it's not your average buyer.
Now, 3rd parties offer 23" IPS displays for $200-300 so that's at least $700 less, making the total $867-967, which undercuts the entry iMac by $230-330. Apple should start stocking 3rd party displays in their stores if they aren't prepared to make an affordable 23" display themselves.
It is meant to be that way. Most folks are not likely going to buy a $999 display so if the mini sold well at the same gross margins of the iMac the ASP of the Mac line would drop dramatically.
I dunno why some folks feel that Apple somehow bungled the mini when it is very apparent to me it was designed to be less cost effective than buying the iMac if you needed/wanted a new display even if you go with a budget display from somewhere else.
The 21.5" entry level iMac is $1200 for a quad core i5, 4GB and a Radeon 6750M. Just to get close to those base specs you need the $800 dual core i5 with the 6630M. And the iMac doesn't come with the cheapest mouse but the Magic Mouse ($69) and the Wireless Keyboard ($69). $940 leaves $260 which admittedly gets you a much nicer monitor than the 21" on the iMac but otherwise it's not nearly as nice a machine.
I'm hoping that the baseline iMac goes from 21.5" to 24" this year. If so I'll probably spring for the $1400 model equivalent.
I sent an e-mail to Tim Cook (or his secretary) asking if I can expect good things from the Mac mini as with the Mac Pro. It will interesting (although highly unlikely) to see if I get a response.
It is meant to be that way. Most folks are not likely going to buy a $999 display so if the mini sold well at the same gross margins of the iMac the ASP of the Mac line would drop dramatically.
I dunno why some folks feel that Apple somehow bungled the mini when it is very apparent to me it was designed to be less cost effective than buying the iMac if you needed/wanted a new display even if you go with a budget display from somewhere else.
In a nutshell this is the problem, the Mini was castrated at birth and has been key that way for years. The problem most of us have is that it doesn't have to be that way. Further this artificial arrangement of models does Apple more harm on the desktop than good. To put it simply the line up leads to more lost sales than it does upgrades to the iMac.
The 21.5" entry level iMac is $1200 for a quad core i5, 4GB and a Radeon 6750M. Just to get close to those base specs you need the $800 dual core i5 with the 6630M. And the iMac doesn't come with the cheapest mouse but the Magic Mouse ($69) and the Wireless Keyboard ($69). $940 leaves $260 which admittedly gets you a much nicer monitor than the 21" on the iMac but otherwise it's not nearly as nice a machine.
exactly! That Mini with 6630m is a ripoff relative to Apples other hardware.
I'm hoping that the baseline iMac goes from 21.5" to 24" this year. If so I'll probably spring for the $1400 model equivalent.
No iMac for me if it continues to be the nightmare it currently is.
I sent an e-mail to Tim Cook (or his secretary) asking if I can expect good things from the Mac mini as with the Mac Pro. It will interesting (although highly unlikely) to see if I get a response.
It probably will not be responded too. Mostly because I suspect new Minis with Mountain Lion. In any event good things would be a more reasonable value equation, as has been pointed out in the responses of others the Mini isn't exactly a good value, especially in its descrete GPU form.
I must say, from all the macs I had, and I had a handful of them, starting with the all-in-one-performa, this mac-mini I like the most (it's the one with a superdrive and nvidia-graphiccard):
It's small, quiet and simply works like a charm every day. Mac-OS-X-Snow-Leopard on one partition, Windows XP on the other thanks to Bootcamp.
If there was something that I wished were different it would be these things:
1. It should be easier to open the machine for changing RAM and HDD, cause these are with 2 GB and 160 GB a bit limited.
2. A real HDMI-port would be nice.
3. A bit more power for the graphiccard so that it doesn't choke on 1080p-video-material.
I know that the newer minis already offer that but they also got rid of the internal superdrive which is imho a mistake.
I must say, from all the macs I had, and I had a handful of them, starting with the all-in-one-performa, this mac-mini I like the most (it's the one with a superdrive and nvidia-graphiccard):
Which year is that Mini?
It's small, quiet and simply works like a charm every day. Mac-OS-X-Snow-Leopard on one partition, Windows XP on the other thanks to Bootcamp.
Small and quiet are good qualities. As to other OS support I use virtual box to run Linux. I find VMs are a good productivity boost as in effect the guest operating systems become apps that you can start and stop at will. The bit disappointment here is the need for RAM, lots of it.
If there was something that I wished were different it would be these things:
1. It should be easier to open the machine for changing RAM and HDD, cause these are with 2 GB and 160 GB a bit limited.
I'm assuming you have a rather older model, the newer model is just slightly easier to work on. One of the reasons I'm a big promoter of XMac is that it would hopefully be much easier to get into! Frankly you hit on two issues right away with RAM and especially hard disk access.
One good thing is that current models do have 500 GB hard drives, but beleive it or not they still ship the base model with 2GB of RAM. Frankly that is terrible in a $600 machine.
2. A real HDMI-port would be nice.
I'm not sure I follow, they have been shipping with an HDMI port for some time.
3. A bit more power for the graphiccard so that it doesn't choke on 1080p-video-material.
This is a big concern especially with Mountain Lion accelerating even more things with the GPU. The other thing I've expressed concern about is the pathetic descrete GPU implemented in these machines. If I'm going to pay extra for a descrete GPU it had better be worth the money.
I know that the newer minis already offer that but they also got rid of the internal superdrive which is imho a mistake.
For some it can only be seen as a mistake, for me I don't really care one way or the other. Ripping the CD drive out did impact the machines usefulness as a home theater PC. On the other hand I hardly use my drive anymore prefering the net mostly.
The optical issue is a bit of an example of why I think Apples approach to the desktop is screwed. It makes lots of sense for portable to delete the optical but it does seemed rush to do so on the desktop. It is almost as if they wanted to look progressive so they did this to the machine without thought as to how it is used buy buyers. Enought of those Minis where going to the home theater PC crowd that Apple should have said hey is this right for this platform.
If they do not switch to flash memory modules in the near future, I would like to see the mini feature the HDD on top with a SATA port similar to the one the MacBook Pro has. That way you can easy just undo the top, pop out the memory, pop out the HDD for an SSD and pop the lid back on.
If they do not switch to flash memory modules in the near future, I would like to see the mini feature the HDD on top with a SATA port similar to the one the MacBook Pro has. That way you can easy just undo the top, pop out the memory, pop out the HDD for an SSD and pop the lid back on.
I'm asking for too much though : P
Probably! However I tend to agree that Apple needs to do more with the desktop line up as there has been no innovation in platforms.
Personally I'd like to see Apple implement a storage modules that can be plugged it without opening the case. Drobo has a new concept portable storage array that highlights one approach here. The only difference is that I'd rather see Apple go directly to PCI Express modules. A bay that does both conventional drive interfaces and the new PCI Express interface would be ideal.
However solid state drives are something Apple needs to integrate into all of its desktop machines. The performance benefits are undeniable. Desktops still need bulk storage though. With iMac sales drying up, maybe new Minis aren't far off.
Unless the 2012 mini is really off the charts, I doubt I will be upgrading. Much better to wait for Haswell. That said I still want to see what Apple has in store.
Edit: Hey what about the GeForce 640M LE? How much lower of a card is that compared to the regular 640M?
Mountain Lion will certainly ship this month and there's a suggestion of the 19th. There wouldn't be much point in releasing the new machines today for example and then ship the new OS in 2 weeks, requiring people to pay for the upgrade. Most likely the new iMacs and Minis will ship with Mountain Lion.
Mountain Lion will certainly ship this month and there's a suggestion of the 19th. There wouldn't be much point in releasing the new machines today for example and then ship the new OS in 2 weeks, requiring people to pay for the upgrade. Most likely the new iMacs and Minis will ship with Mountain Lion.
They always include the upgrade if you're purchasing within however many days of the new OS. It's more that they wouldn't have to make any Lion bug fixes this way, concern themselves with adoption rates, or put that stress on their servers. Overall it's cheaper and easier to just ship Mountain Lion with new machines.
I, for one, would love to see a middle ground model of headless desktop Macs; so I guess that makes the count of forum members wanting an xMac move up to 21…
I could see a market for a mid-range unit that would cater to the gaming/HTPC market. My dream specs…?
Quad-core CPU
16GB RAM
Discrete GPU w/1GB RAM (minimum amount of RAM, I personally would prefer a GPU from the higher end of the scale & 2GB of RAM)
256GB PCI Express-based SSD (OS & apps)
Four HDD bays (hot-swap not required, but easy to access for adding new drives would be a requirement)
Hardware RAID (on the main logic board would probably be cheaper, but as a PCI Express card would be best if it needed replacing)
Blu-Ray player/DVD burner (not everyone wants to buy movies from the iTunes Store, and I like all the extras that come on DVDs & Blu-Ray)
HDMI out w/7.1 audio support
Now, I realize this sounds a lot like a pimp Mac Pro, but I envision it more like a complementary component to an A/V receiver, with a similar size.
Add some Razer gear (Naga Hex mouse, Nostromo keypad & BlackWidow Ultimate keyboard), a 70" HDTV & an Onyko THX HTiB (Home Theater in a Box) system; I would be good to go…
Comments
Because done right Apple could have a machine or sets of machines that would attract a far wider crowd of users.
Of course a good part of the problem with the Mini is that Apple itself doesn't have a marketing strategy for the Mini in its stores. Walk into any Apple store and try to walk out with a 100% functional Mini solution at a reasonable price. Apple literally has a low end product that it has no way to market as such in its own stores. That is pathetic. So to be honest the Minis abysmal sales are as much Apples fault as it is the devices.
Don't get me wrong here; of Apples three desktop products, the Mini is the only one I have any respect for. It isn't a bad machine nor is it a bad concept, it is just that I really think Apple could do better for the price and make it a better performer. I'm also getting plain tired at Apples ignoring the desktop in general.
It sells well enough to keep around. Unlike the 17" MacBook Pro, apparently. That is the only metric that matters.
BYODKM. I don't see how that's not a strategy.
You don't get to define what 'reasonable' is. Every individual customer does.
Again, BYODKM.
Sales that, correct me if I'm wrong, we don't know, as Apple doesn't break that down, right?
They've broken their 15-year vow of silence about new products and explicitly stated a new one is coming. Don't tell me they're ignoring the desktop.
I wrote an article you guys should enjoy in AppleMagazine that compared Mac Mini to the G4 Cube. I didn't see such an in-depth comparison before and think both of these Apple products have been interesting and experimental for Apple. I really love both of their designs, but wish Apple would bring the Cube back somehow (obviously, the hardware inside it would be modern). You can read the article here:
http://mlata26.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/g4tomini.pdf
Or you can read it in issue 1 on iTunes/Apple Newsstand of TechLife News.
I know it's hard to predict the tech market but I just don't think the headless computer could ever go away do you?
Edit: At least in the next several years.
There will always be headless computers.
What "headless computer" means will change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
I'd be surprised if it sold well. It's a great computer but Apple are terrible at selling it. If you walked into an Apple Store, even if you were impressed by the $599 price, if you tried to walk out with a full kit, you'd have no choice but to spend:
Mac Mini - $599
27" Cinema display - $999
cheapest keyboard - $49
cheapest mouse - $19.95
total = $1667
Why bother when all of the iMacs are better value than that? While there are shoppers who know how to look for an affordable setup, it's not your average buyer.
Now, 3rd parties offer 23" IPS displays for $200-300 so that's at least $700 less, making the total $867-967, which undercuts the entry iMac by $230-330. Apple should start stocking 3rd party displays in their stores if they aren't prepared to make an affordable 23" display themselves.
It is meant to be that way. Most folks are not likely going to buy a $999 display so if the mini sold well at the same gross margins of the iMac the ASP of the Mac line would drop dramatically.
I dunno why some folks feel that Apple somehow bungled the mini when it is very apparent to me it was designed to be less cost effective than buying the iMac if you needed/wanted a new display even if you go with a budget display from somewhere else.
The 21.5" entry level iMac is $1200 for a quad core i5, 4GB and a Radeon 6750M. Just to get close to those base specs you need the $800 dual core i5 with the 6630M. And the iMac doesn't come with the cheapest mouse but the Magic Mouse ($69) and the Wireless Keyboard ($69). $940 leaves $260 which admittedly gets you a much nicer monitor than the 21" on the iMac but otherwise it's not nearly as nice a machine.
I'm hoping that the baseline iMac goes from 21.5" to 24" this year. If so I'll probably spring for the $1400 model equivalent.
No iMac for me if it continues to be the nightmare it currently is.
It probably will not be responded too. Mostly because I suspect new Minis with Mountain Lion. In any event good things would be a more reasonable value equation, as has been pointed out in the responses of others the Mini isn't exactly a good value, especially in its descrete GPU form.
I must say, from all the macs I had, and I had a handful of them, starting with the all-in-one-performa, this mac-mini I like the most (it's the one with a superdrive and nvidia-graphiccard):
It's small, quiet and simply works like a charm every day. Mac-OS-X-Snow-Leopard on one partition, Windows XP on the other thanks to Bootcamp.
If there was something that I wished were different it would be these things:
1. It should be easier to open the machine for changing RAM and HDD, cause these are with 2 GB and 160 GB a bit limited.
2. A real HDMI-port would be nice.
3. A bit more power for the graphiccard so that it doesn't choke on 1080p-video-material.
I know that the newer minis already offer that but they also got rid of the internal superdrive which is imho a mistake.
I'm assuming you have a rather older model, the newer model is just slightly easier to work on. One of the reasons I'm a big promoter of XMac is that it would hopefully be much easier to get into! Frankly you hit on two issues right away with RAM and especially hard disk access.
One good thing is that current models do have 500 GB hard drives, but beleive it or not they still ship the base model with 2GB of RAM. Frankly that is terrible in a $600 machine. I'm not sure I follow, they have been shipping with an HDMI port for some time. This is a big concern especially with Mountain Lion accelerating even more things with the GPU. The other thing I've expressed concern about is the pathetic descrete GPU implemented in these machines. If I'm going to pay extra for a descrete GPU it had better be worth the money.
For some it can only be seen as a mistake, for me I don't really care one way or the other. Ripping the CD drive out did impact the machines usefulness as a home theater PC. On the other hand I hardly use my drive anymore prefering the net mostly.
The optical issue is a bit of an example of why I think Apples approach to the desktop is screwed. It makes lots of sense for portable to delete the optical but it does seemed rush to do so on the desktop. It is almost as if they wanted to look progressive so they did this to the machine without thought as to how it is used buy buyers. Enought of those Minis where going to the home theater PC crowd that Apple should have said hey is this right for this platform.
I'm asking for too much though : P
Yep. Once you unibody, you don't panel.
Probably! However I tend to agree that Apple needs to do more with the desktop line up as there has been no innovation in platforms.
Personally I'd like to see Apple implement a storage modules that can be plugged it without opening the case. Drobo has a new concept portable storage array that highlights one approach here. The only difference is that I'd rather see Apple go directly to PCI Express modules. A bay that does both conventional drive interfaces and the new PCI Express interface would be ideal.
However solid state drives are something Apple needs to integrate into all of its desktop machines. The performance benefits are undeniable. Desktops still need bulk storage though. With iMac sales drying up, maybe new Minis aren't far off.
Hopefully Apple does not hem itself in to that extent. Every machine they make needs to evolve over time.
Edit: Hey what about the GeForce 640M LE? How much lower of a card is that compared to the regular 640M?
At this point my primary wish is that the damn thing shows up sooner rather than later.
There's a rumour of something happening in 2 weeks:
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/22/vacation-blackout-hints-at-late-july-release-for-os-x-mountain-lion/
Mountain Lion will certainly ship this month and there's a suggestion of the 19th. There wouldn't be much point in releasing the new machines today for example and then ship the new OS in 2 weeks, requiring people to pay for the upgrade. Most likely the new iMacs and Minis will ship with Mountain Lion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
There's a rumour of something happening in 2 weeks:
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/22/vacation-blackout-hints-at-late-july-release-for-os-x-mountain-lion/
Mountain Lion will certainly ship this month and there's a suggestion of the 19th. There wouldn't be much point in releasing the new machines today for example and then ship the new OS in 2 weeks, requiring people to pay for the upgrade. Most likely the new iMacs and Minis will ship with Mountain Lion.
They always include the upgrade if you're purchasing within however many days of the new OS. It's more that they wouldn't have to make any Lion bug fixes this way, concern themselves with adoption rates, or put that stress on their servers. Overall it's cheaper and easier to just ship Mountain Lion with new machines.
I, for one, would love to see a middle ground model of headless desktop Macs; so I guess that makes the count of forum members wanting an xMac move up to 21…
I could see a market for a mid-range unit that would cater to the gaming/HTPC market. My dream specs…?
Quad-core CPU
16GB RAM
Discrete GPU w/1GB RAM (minimum amount of RAM, I personally would prefer a GPU from the higher end of the scale & 2GB of RAM)
256GB PCI Express-based SSD (OS & apps)
Four HDD bays (hot-swap not required, but easy to access for adding new drives would be a requirement)
Hardware RAID (on the main logic board would probably be cheaper, but as a PCI Express card would be best if it needed replacing)
Blu-Ray player/DVD burner (not everyone wants to buy movies from the iTunes Store, and I like all the extras that come on DVDs & Blu-Ray)
HDMI out w/7.1 audio support
Now, I realize this sounds a lot like a pimp Mac Pro, but I envision it more like a complementary component to an A/V receiver, with a similar size.
Add some Razer gear (Naga Hex mouse, Nostromo keypad & BlackWidow Ultimate keyboard), a 70" HDTV & an Onyko THX HTiB (Home Theater in a Box) system; I would be good to go…