It's different. It's not just that these phones can't be upgraded, the entire platform API has been deprecated. Old iOS devices running iOS 5 can still run apps that target that OS. Most developers target older versions of iOS. New apps being released will still be compatible for some time. WP8 introduces a completely new set of APIs and a new development environment. So the whole platform is being dumped. Moreover, WP7 phones are relatively new and are still being released. The original iPad hasn't been on sale for awhile.
OK. +2 for you.
But it doesn't quite mean - as some are more than implying - that the phone someone owns suddenly becomes a brick. Frozen in development and app amber, but not something that won't get you through your contract with the apps selection that you accepted when you bought it.
One other thing I'm not sure (that would soften the blow) is whether your Win 7 Phone apps are forward-compatible once (if of course) you go to Win Phone 8, or if you'll be offered free or minimal cost replacements of native new apps. Thought I read something about that - but don't recall it in this article. And if not, I'll join the chorus in calling them douchebags.
Also, the still selling the current OS phones part - in part a lifeline to Nokia and other factors like keeping Win Phones from not being in stores at all for the next some months - is ethically dubious as well. If they had some class they'd offer - starting from the date of the announcement - a trade-in upgrade to an equivalent 8 model when they're released that would reset the contract clock for either free or a minimal fee (and higher if they wanted a higher-end phone of course). They could also subsidize app upgrades/replacements on the new phones.
They could then send the phones back to the makers who could sell the best as (heavily discounted of course, since dead tech) refurbs and the more used ones on to eBay/Amazon storefront type used goods sellers to recoup some of the upfront cost. That would cost MS some net bucks, but would actually stimulate their production/app partners and even become a non-sleazy way to promote sales (and give the new platform a head start in getting a little "mind share") in this interim period, because it would add a good number of Win Phone 8 users from day 1.
Ascribing class and strategic marketing thinking to Redmond, though, is, as experience has mostly shown, at least a somewhat dubious proposition......
I really don't get what the fuss is about current phones not being able to upgrade is about. Compare that to any other platform and its exactly the same. For instance with IOS depending what phobe you have, you have different functionality andhavr different compatible apps.
Would people just be happier if they called win phone 7.8, win phone 8 with some features turned off?
That's better than their desktop software, at least. Which is why I don't believe it for a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That's better than their desktop software, at least. Which is why I don't believe it for a second.
Why wouldn't it work on wp8? They didn't announce that they were dropping the Silverlight support. There would be no reason to. In the same way that the current phone supports apps written in 2 different versions of Silverlight, wp8 will just also support winrt app high guess what, is a similar framework to Silverlight.
WinPhone 7 was always a placeholder and testbed (if the inspiration for the whole Win 8 interface across the line) - and met a need to quit even showing the v6 nightmare until Win 8 without exiting the phone market altogether for years. That's been clear for well over a year or more. Win 8 will likely be as supported upgradeability-wise going forward across all device lines as any version of Windows.
And that's true even if Win 8 - a transition system with various varieties of hiccups and bad compromises - turns out to be the next Vista that's followed by a Win 9 which will last as long as Win 7 - and even the venerable highly-patched XP that's still chugging along on hundreds of millions of machines after a decade.
Further point and other upgrades will be much better handled than Android's managed to date. (Not that that's exactly a high bar to jump over.....)
But not all that different to the effect of iOS6 on original iPads.... ...they'll do what they've done and as well as they've done it, and while they've been left in the dust future-wise, they're hardly "useless."
And while PPC was supported for quite awhile, it's now on the dust heap - I can't upgrade many things anymore, but I understand it.
Commercially, the entire Win Phone 7 base is miniscule - because it HASN'T sold much for whatever reasons - and still isn't exactly burning up the charts. If Win Phone 8 gains any traction - and I believe it will, at least among business users - they'll fairly quickly reach a point where they're selling more phones per quarter than 7 ever sold in total. And the Win Phone 7 users will upgrade at the end of their contracts, so there will be even fewer of them quickly. So since the code has changed so much, this is the best commercial decision (of a bad bunch) they can make. Plus they had to get the news out to the entire infrastructure of partners they're going to have to rely on - even if leaves a gap of some months.
As for current sales, how many phone customers are surfing sites like this and have any notion of the upcoming transition? If a typical purchaser is attracted by the lines and look of a cool blue Lumia, 90% of those are as likely to buy it as they were yesterday. So some impact over the next few months but not that much. And I'm reasonably sure MS plans to shore up (if not purchase) Nokia in the meantime. The company got lost and made strategic missteps, but much of it is still a fundamentally sound company with good chops and skilled employees. And I'm betting they'll make it back to profitability - on the back of Win 8 derived devices (if mostly phones).
Tend to agree. MS is bringing Windows to phones, whereas Apple's bringing iOS elements to OS X. And interface prefs aside, Siri still looks like the big differentiator. On the other hand, the intro of the Surface stuff was very underwhelming. Floppy keyboards and kickstands on a device most people will want to work with effortlessly from lap to table to bed, etc.? Kludgy as hell.
Already answered below. But I'll add that in fact I've had no security problems on my Win towers at all in the last four years. I still have to run anti-malware, sure, and I open any odd looking emails I want to check on my Macs, but the "security gap" is in practice an old saw that just doesn't cut much any more. Whereas Android is the new frontier of insecurity.
"A is A. A thing is itself."
(I can, but wondering anyone else here is able to and cares to source that quote?)
You're missing a big difference in the way Apple drops support, and the way it's happening here. Apple waits several years until after a product line ships before dropping support. So they waited about 5 years befor dropping PPC support. It will be three years for the first iPad.
But here, if you aren't paying attention, you could buy a phone that will be obsolete the next day. RIM is doing the same thing.
I'm wondering if Microsoft doesn't have some plan to lose a lot of money giving older phone owners some sort of discount, or if they bought their phones after some date, a free exchange for an equivelant model. In the long run, that would benefit them, and they seem to have a perverse interest in throwing money away.
Not being upgradable has not hurt Android handsets at those carriers much, hasn't it?
I wonder. Android isn't as sticky as iOS. About 70% of Android users say they will stick with it, most if the rest say they will move to iOS. But almost 90% of iOS users say they will stick with it, with most of the rest moving to Android.
As we can see from sales at the major carriers, iPhone sales AT&T are 78.5% of their smartphones sales. At Verizon it's 52%, and the assumption is that it's about the same at Sprint. Those numbers have been rising. True around the rest of the world as well.
I doubt that most Android users bought their phones b ecause it had Android on it. They buy Galaxy's, and Droids. If they aren't happy, they move to another one, or to an iPhone.
I doubt most people, other than iPhone users even know what the OS is. They certainly don't know what the version is.
But unlike iOS, they don't see apps that won't work on their phones at all. So they don't know what they're missing out on. Google has said that they did that so as not to confuse users. But I think they mostly did it so that users wouldn't know that their devices couldn't get the latest and greatest. And what they don't know, won't hurt Google.
It's actually pretty funny to see all the msft haters here yelling how disastrous this is for developers and wp7 owners.
I own a Lumia 900. I don't think this is desastrous. In fact, I expected this. They switched from win CE to NT. Did anyone really expect that current wp7 hardware would be compatible?
And even if they could put in the work to deliver the software, what good would it do? The Lumia - or any other wp7 device - has none of the hardware required for the majority of features it brings.
7.8 will give us some goodies and I'll upgrade in a year or two. No big deal.
It also so happens that I am a software engineer as well. I mostly do enterprise level work in ASP MVC, WPF and Silverlight in .NET
We also do some wp7 work. I don't think wp8 screws me over at all. On the contrary. Our existing apps will all continue to work just fine and the future apps we create can have a large chuck of their codebase shared between win8 and wp8 versions. If we even need different versions at all...
This isn't desastrous. This is absolutely brilliant.
It's going to make our job a lot easier and it will provide a superior user experience. What's not to like?
People who read, and post to web sites are expected to know these things. I'd make a bet that most Win Phone users have no idea that wp8 is even coming out yet, much less that their phone will be obsolete in a few months.
7.8 gives you one major thing, it updates the UI so that it's more like WP8. That's most of what you get. So people can pretend to themselves that there isn't such a big difference after all.
And yes, Microsoft had to do this. Win Phone as it stands is terrible. With all the fanboys who bought it, and that's easily the majority, from the very low sales, notwithstanding, it was obsolete the day it came out. Microsoft knew it. But they had to have something, and quickly. This was the only way they could do it. Considering that it was the old, tired, CE that Win Mobile used, they did a good job. But it had to go.
If they kept it one more year, they would be out of the phone business.
You're missing a big difference in the way Apple drops support, and the way it's happening here. Apple waits several years until after a product line ships before dropping support. So they waited about 5 years befor dropping PPC support. It will be three years for the first iPad.
But here, if you aren't paying attention, you could buy a phone that will be obsolete the next day. RIM is doing the same thing.
I'm wondering if Microsoft doesn't have some plan to lose a lot of money giving older phone owners some sort of discount, or if they bought their phones after some date, a free exchange for an equivelant model. In the long run, that would benefit them, and they seem to have a perverse interest in throwing money away.
There not actually dropping support though. These still an update coming at the end of the year that includes features from Win Phone 8 although what features other than the home screen hasn't been confirmed.
Lets look at the WP8 features though:
Higher screen res - requires hardware
Multi core - requires hardware
NFC - requires hardware
E Wallet - requires hardware
Shared code with Windows 8 - doesn't actually affect the user
Enterprise features - if you didn't need it when you bought the phone, you probably don't now
Home screen - Included in 7.8
New maps - Lumia already has it. Others may be disapointed
Apps written in C - Remains to be seen how many apps will actually use it and how many will stick with Silverlight. My guess is a lot of new games might not be availiable for 7.8
IE10 - Remains to be seen if this is in 7.8. They've mentioned in the past the browser can be upgraded without a new OS. So it may come in 7.8.
I don't really get in what way your thinking this is much worse to how Apple drop support. If they wern't releasing 7.8 then I would agree, but as the current phones are going to get an update, I don't see the issue.
Why wouldn't it work on wp8? They didn't announce that they were dropping the Silverlight support. There would be no reason to. In the same way that the current phone supports apps written in 2 different versions of Silverlight, wp8 will just also support winrt app high guess what, is a similar framework to Silverlight.
They've already said that Silverlight is being depreciated. A bit of it will remain here and there.
I really don't get what the fuss is about current phones not being able to upgrade is about. Compare that to any other platform and its exactly the same. For instance with IOS depending what phobe you have, you have different functionality andhavr different compatible apps.
Would people just be happier if they called win phone 7.8, win phone 8 with some features turned off?
That's not true at all. Has Apple EVER made a phone that was new a year before a major software release, fail to be able to be upgraded to it? Never! It takes three models before that happens.
You think the 4S can't accept iOS 6? Or that the new iPad won't? That would be insane!
Yes, Android works that way. Some phones even come out with software that's older than the current release, and never get upgraded. But that's not, as you said; any other platform.
There not actually dropping support though. These still an update coming at the end of the year that includes features from Win Phone 8 although what features other than the home screen hasn't been confirmed.
Lets look at the WP8 features though:
Higher screen res - requires hardware
Multi core - requires hardware
NFC - requires hardware
E Wallet - requires hardware
Shared code with Windows 8 - doesn't actually affect the user
Enterprise features - if you didn't need it when you bought the phone, you probably don't now
Home screen - Included in 7.8
New maps - Lumia already has it. Others may be disapointed
Apps written in C - Remains to be seen how many apps will actually use it and how many will stick with Silverlight. My guess is a lot of new games might not be availiable for 7.8
IE10 - Remains to be seen if this is in 7.8. They've mentioned in the past the browser can be upgraded without a new OS. So it may come in 7.8.
I don't really get in what way your thinking this is much worse to how Apple drop support. If they wern't releasing 7.8 then I would agree, but as the current phones are going to get an update, I don't see the issue.
The main feature is will support is a UI that looks, and operates somewhat like the new on in WP8. Very little else will be there.
Nothing is forward compatable. There is some backward compatibility. But even Microsoft said that some work would likely be required.
I'm not saying that this wasn't a requirement for Microsoft. I've been saying in posts, even on this thread, if you bothered to read them, that this is necessary. Win Phone has been falling too far behind. In a number of forums, Microsoft fanboys have been stating quite aggressively, that more than one core isn't necessary, and that higher resolutions aren't necessary, but we know that's a crock. While the Win Phone UI worked fine on a higher clocked single core, many better apps never came out because the whole thing is creaky and underpowered. This will give them the chance at catching up.
But the question of obsoleting a new phone is a different issue. Apple would never do that, so stop comparing the two, because that comparison is ridiculous. If you want, you can compare them to RIM, which is doing the same thing when BB10 comes out.
Watching MS's event from Wednesday they state that 7 of the top 9 phones with plans are Windows phones. Today there are zero of the top 9 phones that are Windows phones. So how did they do this? I doubt they lied so did they just buy a lot of Windows phones and then take screenshots after those sales were accounted for?
Watching MS's event from Wednesday they state that 7 of the top 9 phones with plans are Windows phones. Today there are zero of the top 9 phones that are Windows phones. So how did they do this? I doubt they lied so did they just buy a lot of Windows phones and then take screenshots after those sales were accounted for?
That's just crazy. I don't understand by what contrived means they can arrive at those figures.
They've already said that Silverlight is being depreciated. A bit of it will remain here and there.
14 mins into the presentation they say all wp7 apps will work on wp8, and that they can be updated (still in silverlight) to take advantage of the new screen resolutions. Remember just because it's called silverlight it isn't the same thing as what you get in a browser.
Comments
That's better than their desktop software, at least. Which is why I don't believe it for a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke
It's different. It's not just that these phones can't be upgraded, the entire platform API has been deprecated. Old iOS devices running iOS 5 can still run apps that target that OS. Most developers target older versions of iOS. New apps being released will still be compatible for some time. WP8 introduces a completely new set of APIs and a new development environment. So the whole platform is being dumped. Moreover, WP7 phones are relatively new and are still being released. The original iPad hasn't been on sale for awhile.
OK. +2 for you.
But it doesn't quite mean - as some are more than implying - that the phone someone owns suddenly becomes a brick. Frozen in development and app amber, but not something that won't get you through your contract with the apps selection that you accepted when you bought it.
One other thing I'm not sure (that would soften the blow) is whether your Win 7 Phone apps are forward-compatible once (if of course) you go to Win Phone 8, or if you'll be offered free or minimal cost replacements of native new apps. Thought I read something about that - but don't recall it in this article. And if not, I'll join the chorus in calling them douchebags.
Also, the still selling the current OS phones part - in part a lifeline to Nokia and other factors like keeping Win Phones from not being in stores at all for the next some months - is ethically dubious as well. If they had some class they'd offer - starting from the date of the announcement - a trade-in upgrade to an equivalent 8 model when they're released that would reset the contract clock for either free or a minimal fee (and higher if they wanted a higher-end phone of course). They could also subsidize app upgrades/replacements on the new phones.
They could then send the phones back to the makers who could sell the best as (heavily discounted of course, since dead tech) refurbs and the more used ones on to eBay/Amazon storefront type used goods sellers to recoup some of the upfront cost. That would cost MS some net bucks, but would actually stimulate their production/app partners and even become a non-sleazy way to promote sales (and give the new platform a head start in getting a little "mind share") in this interim period, because it would add a good number of Win Phone 8 users from day 1.
Ascribing class and strategic marketing thinking to Redmond, though, is, as experience has mostly shown, at least a somewhat dubious proposition......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That's better than their desktop software, at least. Which is why I don't believe it for a second.
Better then their desktop software? Can you name me a popular desktop application that didn't work on the next release of windows?
And you can believe whatever you wish. It won't change the fact that every single wp7 application works on wp8.
I really don't get what the fuss is about current phones not being able to upgrade is about. Compare that to any other platform and its exactly the same. For instance with IOS depending what phobe you have, you have different functionality andhavr different compatible apps.
Would people just be happier if they called win phone 7.8, win phone 8 with some features turned off?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That's better than their desktop software, at least. Which is why I don't believe it for a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That's better than their desktop software, at least. Which is why I don't believe it for a second.
Why wouldn't it work on wp8? They didn't announce that they were dropping the Silverlight support. There would be no reason to. In the same way that the current phone supports apps written in 2 different versions of Silverlight, wp8 will just also support winrt app high guess what, is a similar framework to Silverlight.
Yes, just like the iPhone does (not!).
You're missing a big difference in the way Apple drops support, and the way it's happening here. Apple waits several years until after a product line ships before dropping support. So they waited about 5 years befor dropping PPC support. It will be three years for the first iPad.
But here, if you aren't paying attention, you could buy a phone that will be obsolete the next day. RIM is doing the same thing.
I'm wondering if Microsoft doesn't have some plan to lose a lot of money giving older phone owners some sort of discount, or if they bought their phones after some date, a free exchange for an equivelant model. In the long run, that would benefit them, and they seem to have a perverse interest in throwing money away.
I wonder. Android isn't as sticky as iOS. About 70% of Android users say they will stick with it, most if the rest say they will move to iOS. But almost 90% of iOS users say they will stick with it, with most of the rest moving to Android.
As we can see from sales at the major carriers, iPhone sales AT&T are 78.5% of their smartphones sales. At Verizon it's 52%, and the assumption is that it's about the same at Sprint. Those numbers have been rising. True around the rest of the world as well.
I doubt that most Android users bought their phones b ecause it had Android on it. They buy Galaxy's, and Droids. If they aren't happy, they move to another one, or to an iPhone.
I doubt most people, other than iPhone users even know what the OS is. They certainly don't know what the version is.
But unlike iOS, they don't see apps that won't work on their phones at all. So they don't know what they're missing out on. Google has said that they did that so as not to confuse users. But I think they mostly did it so that users wouldn't know that their devices couldn't get the latest and greatest. And what they don't know, won't hurt Google.
People who read, and post to web sites are expected to know these things. I'd make a bet that most Win Phone users have no idea that wp8 is even coming out yet, much less that their phone will be obsolete in a few months.
7.8 gives you one major thing, it updates the UI so that it's more like WP8. That's most of what you get. So people can pretend to themselves that there isn't such a big difference after all.
And yes, Microsoft had to do this. Win Phone as it stands is terrible. With all the fanboys who bought it, and that's easily the majority, from the very low sales, notwithstanding, it was obsolete the day it came out. Microsoft knew it. But they had to have something, and quickly. This was the only way they could do it. Considering that it was the old, tired, CE that Win Mobile used, they did a good job. But it had to go.
If they kept it one more year, they would be out of the phone business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
You're missing a big difference in the way Apple drops support, and the way it's happening here. Apple waits several years until after a product line ships before dropping support. So they waited about 5 years befor dropping PPC support. It will be three years for the first iPad.
But here, if you aren't paying attention, you could buy a phone that will be obsolete the next day. RIM is doing the same thing.
I'm wondering if Microsoft doesn't have some plan to lose a lot of money giving older phone owners some sort of discount, or if they bought their phones after some date, a free exchange for an equivelant model. In the long run, that would benefit them, and they seem to have a perverse interest in throwing money away.
There not actually dropping support though. These still an update coming at the end of the year that includes features from Win Phone 8 although what features other than the home screen hasn't been confirmed.
Lets look at the WP8 features though:
Higher screen res - requires hardware
Multi core - requires hardware
NFC - requires hardware
E Wallet - requires hardware
Shared code with Windows 8 - doesn't actually affect the user
Enterprise features - if you didn't need it when you bought the phone, you probably don't now
Home screen - Included in 7.8
New maps - Lumia already has it. Others may be disapointed
Apps written in C - Remains to be seen how many apps will actually use it and how many will stick with Silverlight. My guess is a lot of new games might not be availiable for 7.8
IE10 - Remains to be seen if this is in 7.8. They've mentioned in the past the browser can be upgraded without a new OS. So it may come in 7.8.
I don't really get in what way your thinking this is much worse to how Apple drop support. If they wern't releasing 7.8 then I would agree, but as the current phones are going to get an update, I don't see the issue.
They've already said that Silverlight is being depreciated. A bit of it will remain here and there.
I'm not sure if it's true for all the apps, but they've already said that it will take a bit of work to make them compatable.
That's not true at all. Has Apple EVER made a phone that was new a year before a major software release, fail to be able to be upgraded to it? Never! It takes three models before that happens.
You think the 4S can't accept iOS 6? Or that the new iPad won't? That would be insane!
Yes, Android works that way. Some phones even come out with software that's older than the current release, and never get upgraded. But that's not, as you said; any other platform.
The main feature is will support is a UI that looks, and operates somewhat like the new on in WP8. Very little else will be there.
Nothing is forward compatable. There is some backward compatibility. But even Microsoft said that some work would likely be required.
I'm not saying that this wasn't a requirement for Microsoft. I've been saying in posts, even on this thread, if you bothered to read them, that this is necessary. Win Phone has been falling too far behind. In a number of forums, Microsoft fanboys have been stating quite aggressively, that more than one core isn't necessary, and that higher resolutions aren't necessary, but we know that's a crock. While the Win Phone UI worked fine on a higher clocked single core, many better apps never came out because the whole thing is creaky and underpowered. This will give them the chance at catching up.
But the question of obsoleting a new phone is a different issue. Apple would never do that, so stop comparing the two, because that comparison is ridiculous. If you want, you can compare them to RIM, which is doing the same thing when BB10 comes out.
Some people and their idle time.
That's just crazy. I don't understand by what contrived means they can arrive at those figures.
Maybe the same means by which Android can activate a million phones a day.
Even that pales in comparison, don't you think?