Italy threatens to suspend Apple operations in warranty dispute

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 100
    rcomeaurcomeau Posts: 31member


    Yes, but the law prevents Apple from offering that choice (or any other company for that matter) so the argument is moot. The law there is that the minimum warranty is 2 years. So price that in the regular price and move on. We can debate the utility of the law, but that is another discussion.

  • Reply 42 of 100
    markbyrnmarkbyrn Posts: 609member
    While the trolls argue about US vs EU, here's an Apple web page titled, "Apple Products and EU Statutory Warranty" and it compares it's warranty to the EU Statutory Warranty

    To quote notes on the EU 2 year statutory warranty:

    [URL=http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/]http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/[/URL]

    [B]In most EU member states, consumers may only claim for defects that were present on delivery. There are some exceptions including Czech Republic and Romania. The burden to prove that the defect existed on delivery generally shifts to the consumer after the expiry of a period of 6 months from date of delivery. Examples of countries where the burden of proof does not shift include Czech Republic, Portugal and Romania. [/B]

    Assuming that to be correct, the Apple Warranty would clearly provide more coverage, and perhaps the Italian consumer agency is pushing Apple to provide more coverage than the EU statutory warranty allows for. As such, Apple's reluctance to buckle under is understandable but Apple is obviously not winning the legal battle here. Unfortunately, Apple's General Counsel (Mr. Bruce Sewell) has routinely proved himself to be a liability to the company.
  • Reply 43 of 100
    hungoverhungover Posts: 603member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


     


    No you're not. The EU is in deep shit. I'm hoping for a total collapse of the EURO soon, it's bound to happen sooner or later. They're living on borrowed time. The EURO is a failed experiment, and those European countries that haven't adopted the idiotic EURO are surely happy today.



    What are you on about? The EU states that are not members of the EURO aren't in the habit of gloating over the misfortune of their neighbours (read: their trading partners). If the EURO collapses spontaniously, then the EU will follow, then Europe, then the rest of the world. Get back to playing with your crayons

  • Reply 44 of 100
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    rcomeau wrote: »
    Yes, but the law prevents Apple from offering that choice
    What choice? No law prohibits Apple from selling AppleCare in Italy/EU.
    You need to quote what you are responding to so people can understand your response in context.
  • Reply 45 of 100

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post


     


    Again, it's my money and I'd rather maintain the choice.  I may be in the minority but isn't my choice to be protected?



     


    Do you object to receiving a one year warranty?  That too is included in the base price.


     


    Would you want products to come with  no warranty whatsoever except at an additional price?

  • Reply 46 of 100
    carniphagecarniphage Posts: 1,984member


    EU law (Directive 1999/44/EC) states that manufacturers are obliged to provide a two year warranty on all new goods.


     


     


    The Directive applies to


    ·       any defective movable consumer product


    ·       any seller, that is to say any person who, under a contract, sells consumer goods in the course of their trade, profession or business


    ·       a producer, meaning the manufacturer of consumer goods, the importation of goods or any other person who purports to be a producer by virtue of their name, brand or other distinctive sign


     


    The directive calls for


    ·       a guarantee of at least 2 years for new goods (or longer if the Member State wishes) where the seller will undertake without extra charge to reimburse the price paid or to replace and/or repair consumer goods if they do not meet the specifications set out in the guarantee statement or relevant advertising.


    ·       a guarantee of at least one year for used goods (except those sold by a private seller)


     


    If you ask an Apple salesman in store they will describe the one year Apple warranty. This is actually not legal.


    However on their websites Apple now offers two year warranties across the EU.


     


    http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/


     


     


     


     


     

  • Reply 47 of 100
    sessamoidsessamoid Posts: 182member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Then I remembered that a couple other EU countries/consumer protection agencies have the same complaints that they're starting action on.



    You have a link for that?

  • Reply 48 of 100
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member
    jragosta wrote: »
    "The AGCM found that Apple had pushed its paid two-year AppleCare warranty on customers despite acknowledging that EU laws require companies to offer the same protections without charge. Apple complied with the December order and began informing customers through its online storefront of the mandatory two-year warranty."
    So exactly how did Apple not comply?

    Because they don't offer an automatic two year warranty.

    The catch is that the EU laws say that the seller has to warranty the item for two years for DEFECTS PRESENT AT TIME OF PURCHASE. Basically it's a lemon law. Within the first like 60 days the seller must assume the defect was at ToP but after that the buyer has to prove that was the case.

    That is not Apple Care. AppleCare doesn't care when the defect happens. So long as it isn't damage like a drop or liquid they will cover it.

    This group has likely gotten a complaint from someone that was past Apple's one year 'if it's not damage it's covered' and they couldnt prove it was a time of purchase defect and so they were refused coverage. Groups like this have to be public or they get the bad PR. Thus all the press about them investigating etc. and it's heavy hit fodder Apple so it will be all over everywhere
  • Reply 49 of 100
    christophbchristophb Posts: 1,458member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post


     


    Do you object to receiving a one year warranty?  That too is included in the base price.


     


    Would you want products to come with  no warranty whatsoever except at an additional price?



    Is that one year warranty required by law or by a market place where the producer sees it as the sweet spot?  If the former, yes.  I buy products with a 90 day warranty.  I weigh the risk/cost and the If I want a service plan or extended warranty I buy it.  I almost always decline extended warranties when offered at checkout.  Should those be required by law?  Buy something at Best Buy and they automatically tack it on the bill?

  • Reply 50 of 100
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,687member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hungover View Post


    What are you on about? The EU states that are not members of the EURO aren't in the habit of gloating over the misfortune of their neighbours (read: their trading partners). If the EURO collapses spontaniously, then the EU will follow, then Europe, then the rest of the world. Get back to playing with your crayons



    I'm not a EU state and I do not have any such reservations about not gloating over the misfortune of others. As for who is right, time will provide us the answer to that question. Bailout after bailout is just delaying the inevitable.

  • Reply 51 of 100
    jupiteronejupiterone Posts: 1,564member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


     


    That's still shows up as a rectangle for me, with nothing inside of it. I guess I'll take a deeper look at preferences later, though it looks like a new Lion feature, because I don't see any option for Emoji when I quickly checked language & text preferences.





    It shows up as a rectangle for me too.  Using Firefox on Windows 7 (at work).

  • Reply 52 of 100
    shaun, ukshaun, uk Posts: 1,050member


    Don't see the problem here, Apple like any other company must comply with the local laws in each country. They sell around the world so they must be used to this.


     


    Comply with Italian law or don't sell your goods there. Keep getting fined until you do comply. Very simple.

  • Reply 53 of 100
    ankleskaterankleskater Posts: 1,287member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post





    Because they don't offer an automatic two year warranty.

    The catch is that the EU laws say that the seller has to warranty the item for two years for DEFECTS PRESENT AT TIME OF PURCHASE. Basically it's a lemon law. Within the first like 60 days the seller must assume the defect was at ToP but after that the buyer has to prove that was the case.

    That is not Apple Care. AppleCare doesn't care when the defect happens. So long as it isn't damage like a drop or liquid they will cover it.

    This group has likely gotten a complaint from someone that was past Apple's one year 'if it's not damage it's covered' and they couldnt prove it was a time of purchase defect and so they were refused coverage. Groups like this have to be public or they get the bad PR. Thus all the press about them investigating etc. and it's heavy hit fodder Apple so it will be all over everywhere




    Thanks for the clarification.


     


    I still don't understand why Apple would knowingly flout EU law after being fined. And, if this is an EU requirement, why hasn't it been an issue elsewhere?

  • Reply 54 of 100
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member

    Thanks for the clarification.

    I still don't understand why Apple would knowingly flout EU law after being fined. And, if this is an EU requirement, why hasn't it been an issue elsewhere?

    We don't know that they are. No one has quoted a law saying that sellers must tell customers about their legal rights etc when they are making a purchase, we see for ourselves that the info is on the website, etc.

    These guys basically dont want Apple selling AppleCare proactively. However it is often the better deal especially with computers because it goes for a year after their precious law does.
  • Reply 55 of 100
    ktappektappe Posts: 770member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post


     


    But I don't want a 2 year warranty.  I replace my phone each year, tablet each year, laptop each year(ish)



     


    What about the person who buys your old units? They want the two year warranty and it is not available for sale to them, only you as the initial buyer. Also, you said "year(ish)" on your laptop, so you do want it covered for the 13th, 14th months I bet. Further, if you really replace all these devices every year, you're obviously doing well enough economically that you're the last person to be hurt by a few extra dollars in a pricetag. So stop with the "my wallet first, everything else second" mentality; a 2-year warranty helps almost everyone and doesn't hurt you a bit. So just let it be.

  • Reply 56 of 100
    "Apple wrote:
    [" url="/t/151042/italy-threatens-to-suspend-apple-operations-in-warranty-dispute#post_2138618"]
    You just gave me a link that is 955 pages long. :)

    I'm going to pass on reading it, because it doesn't really concern me too much, as I already have coverage. It does seem strange though, that if what you claim is true, that there is no penalty for not paying the penalty, then why should anybody who gets slapped with a penalty bother to pay at all? 

    There is an index hyperlinked to each section of the Act. It would take all of five minutes to locate the text in Title IX of the Act.

    Here is the plain English version (from Sen. Patrick Leahy's web site):
    Taxpayers who are required to pay a fine but fail to do so will receive a notice from Internal Revenue Service (IRS). If an individual still neglects to pay the fine, the IRS can attempt to collect the funds by reducing the amount of their tax refund in the future.  Individuals who fail to pay the penalty, however, will not be subject to criminal prosecution. The government cannot file notice of lien or levy on any property for a taxpayer who does not pay the penalty.

    The penalty, that goes into effect in 2014, is $95.00/yr per adult and $47.50 per minor not covered.

    A massive burden eclipsed only by a devastating medical bill where that uninsured driver hits you, the uninsured walker.
  • Reply 57 of 100
    hungoverhungover Posts: 603member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    "The AGCM found that Apple had pushed its paid two-year AppleCare warranty on customers despite acknowledging that EU laws require companies to offer the same protections without charge. Apple complied with the December order and began informing customers through its online storefront of the mandatory two-year warranty."

    So exactly how did Apple not comply?


    They haven't complied in any meaningful way. They have hidden the consumer rights in inconspicuous hyper links.


     


    When you start the checkout process for the iphone (on apple.it) and select your model you are then offered AppleCare which states the following


     


      AppleCare Protection Plan




     


    Service and support offered by the experts of the iPhone.


    Every iPhone comes with a limited warranty of one year to cover the repair costs and up to 90 days for technical support *. AppleCare Protection Plan for iPhone extends your coverage to two years from date of purchase of the iPhone: * 




     


     


     


    At no point do they make it clear that the consumer actually has a free 2 year warranty, deciding instead to push the very profitable AppleCare. IMO Apple are wilfully continuing to break the law

  • Reply 58 of 100
    ktappektappe Posts: 770member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post





    These guys basically dont want Apple selling AppleCare proactively. However it is often the better deal especially with computers because it goes for a year after their precious law does.


     


    Their "precious" (nice weasel word) law seems completely reasonable. Do you honestly think it is fair for a product to cease functioning only 13 months after it is sold to you? Are you that in defense of crappy manufacturing? And if you reply "Oh, Apple's quality is better than that; I'm not defending crap" then there should be no problem with Apple giving a 2-year warranty. You can't have it both ways. Either you're defending the indefensible or you're defending something that needs no defense whatsoever. Nobody opposing the EU 2-year warranty has a leg to stand on.

  • Reply 59 of 100
    christophbchristophb Posts: 1,458member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ktappe View Post


     


    What about the person who buys your old units? They want the two year warranty and it is not available for sale to them, only you as the initial buyer. Also, you said "year(ish)" on your laptop, so you do want it covered for the 13th, 14th months I bet. Further, if you really replace all these devices every year, you're obviously doing well enough economically that you're the last person to be hurt by a few extra dollars in a pricetag. So stop with the "my wallet first, everything else second" mentality; a 2-year warranty helps almost everyone and doesn't hurt you a bit. So just let it be.



     


    I'm not the one telling people how they must spend their money.  Stop telling me how I should spend mine.  Let me make my own choices, take my own risks, take it in the shorts on the 13th, 14th, 15th month.  Stop telling me what my mentality should be.  If a 2-year warranty was in the producer's & consumer's best interest, the MARKET would have determined this.

  • Reply 60 of 100
    gazoobeegazoobee Posts: 3,754member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JollyPaul View Post


    Raise the European price and include the two year warranty, problem solved.



    Italy is not Europe. 

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