Nokia halves price of Lumia 900 as Windows Phone struggles persist

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  • Reply 101 of 115

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post


     


    Yes every language based on .NET got compile into bitcodes just like Java or LLVM, that doesn't include DCOM and non-.NET VB which still represent the majority of apps on Windows. Beside, you don't address directly the fact that WP7.8, WP8, WinRT and Windows 8 doesn't shares the same basic API.


     


    FYI, no sane developer codes directly bitcode,



    I never said anyone develops directly in bit code. Why would you develop directly in bit code? What? What? W h a t?


    You program with a framework like .NET and that does all the hard work for you and compiles down into bit code.


     


    It depends what you mean by "API". Do you mean WinRT? Win32? .NET? This is another reason to use .NET for development (along with every tool for winphone development uses .NET) for coding. One giant API layer that works across all platforms; thanks to CLR being open source and to MONO for bringing it to no Windows Systems. Did you know you can develop for iPhone and Android in C#.NET? :)

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  • Reply 102 of 115


    As a former Apple employee and current Nokia employee, I don't see why any Apple fan should hate on Nokia and want them and/or WP to fail.


     


    It's not the 90s, guys. Microsoft isn't the enemy anymore. Google is. Any Apple fan with an ounce of strategic sense should support Nokia/Windows Phone as a bulwark against Android hegemony

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  • Reply 103 of 115

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post


     


    Rubbish, WP7.8 an 8 doesn't have the same features (it doesn't even share the same browser) and the same kernel. WP7.8 is still based on WinCE kernel, only silverlight apps will run on 7.8 and 8.  Compiled C apps made for WP8 won't run on 7.8. 



    As a Nokia Developer Relations employee, I will happily let the record straight. "only Silverlight apps" will work but we are still telling developers to target 7.8 UNLESS they need 8-specific features (native code, NFC, etc).

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  • Reply 104 of 115

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hungover View Post


    is the 18 month WP support offical? sounds fair, I just hadn't seen it mention before. It is better than the lack of official support that WM (ever) had.



     


    Yes.

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  • Reply 105 of 115
    hungoverhungover Posts: 603member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SirKneeland View Post


    As a former Apple employee and current Nokia employee, I don't see why any Apple fan should hate on Nokia and want them and/or WP to fail.


     


    It's not the 90s, guys. Microsoft isn't the enemy anymore. Google is. Any Apple fan with an ounce of strategic sense should support Nokia/Windows Phone as a bulwark against Android hegemony



     


    I appreciate that you can't necessarily confirm or deny any future plans, BUT,  if wp8 is up to scratch I would be looking for a device with a real (slide out) keyboard. I don't care if it adds a few more mm to the thickness but IMO on screen keyboards are fine until you want to do something that requires more accuracy than playing a piano with boxing gloves.


     


    in your opinion would that be a phone designed in Finland or Taiwan?

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  • Reply 106 of 115


    If history is any indication, Nokia will be able to figure out so many designs for you to choose from. I think quite a few of them will sport a slide out keyboard. That is also one of the reasons why I wanted nokia to work on android. They had better durable designs and they put keyboards in!

     

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  • Reply 107 of 115
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member


    Quote:



    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    I never said anyone develops directly in bit code. Why would you develop directly in bit code? What? What? W h a t?


    You program with a framework like .NET and that does all the hard work for you and compiles down into bit code.



     


    Quote:


    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    "you can develop for both using CLR alone"




     


    CLR is an bytecode language, Nuff said
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  • Reply 108 of 115
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    It depends what you mean by "API". Do you mean WinRT? Win32? .NET? This is another reason to use .NET for development (along with every tool for winphone development uses .NET) for coding. One giant API layer that works across all platforms; thanks to CLR being open source and to MONO for bringing it to no Windows Systems. Did you know you can develop for iPhone and Android in C#.NET? :)



     


    FYI, an API is additional libs available for developer to reuse in is apps. I mean Networks libs, graphics, UI assets, files systems API, Touch input API, kernel API, Drivers API, crypto libs, I mean headers you need to import into your project before start coding, I'm talking about all dynamic library your Apps got to link with at runtime.  .NET runtime API alone needs to install at least 3 sets of concurrents Runtime libs (DLL) for running version 1.0, 2 and 3 .NET Apps. On Windows 7, all those library in DLL form are contains in the WinSXS directory and weight over 7GB, and keeps growing each time you install a new software or updates.


     


    .NET is not one giant and uniform API Layer across all Microsoft platform, but one giant IDE that is feed from multiples and divers languages and API.  While the Xbox, WP8 and WinRT can all runs .NET apps, you can't cross-compile the same apps on all platform because they doesn't share the same sets of basics API.


     


    Having open source MONO will help to bring C# to other no-Windows platform, but it won't bring Microsoft proprietary API to other platform, like UI elements, Windows security, File system API, which complicate ports of existing Windows apps who use proprietary Windows API like Office to other platform.  Same apply for Objective-C, while being available open source, Apple's proprietary OSX API won't be port on other platform, making straight port difficult. 

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  • Reply 109 of 115
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SirKneeland View Post


    As a Nokia Developer Relations employee, I will happily let the record straight. "only Silverlight apps" will work but we are still telling developers to target 7.8 UNLESS they need 8-specific features (native code, NFC, etc).



     


    Thank you for your precision but native code is a big deal here, silverlight apps are second grade and transitional to WP8 platform.  Once WP7.8 forgotten they will be no reason to keep coding silverlight apps. 

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  • Reply 110 of 115
    bigmac2 wrote: »
    FYI, an API is additional libs available for developer to reuse in is apps. I mean Networks libs, graphics, UI assets, files systems API, Touch input API, kernel API, Drivers API, crypto libs, I mean headers you need to import into your project before start coding, I'm talking about all dynamic library your Apps got to link with at runtime.  .NET runtime API alone needs to install at least 3 sets of concurrents Runtime libs (DLL) for running version 1.0, 2 and 3 .NET Apps. On Windows 7, all those library in DLL form are contains in the WinSXS directory and weight over 7GB, and keeps growing each time you install a new software or updates.

    .NET is not one giant and uniform API Layer across all Microsoft platform, but one giant IDE that is feed from multiples and divers languages and API.  While the Xbox, WP8 and WinRT can all runs .NET apps, you can't cross-compile the same apps on all platform because they doesn't share the same sets of basics API.

    Having open source MONO will help to bring C# to other no-Windows platform, but it won't bring Microsoft proprietary API to other platform, like UI elements, Windows security, File system API, which complicate ports of existing Windows apps who use proprietary Windows API like Office to other platform.  Same apply for Objective-C, while being available open source, Apple's proprietary OSX API won't be port on other platform, making straight port difficult. 

    That wasn't a cue to tell me what each API is; I know what an API is. I was asking what API layer you were specifically referring to.

    You've never used mono/.NET, have you?

    Mono is used to bring CLR to non Microsoft platforms and quite a lot of bugs have been ironed out - the only thing missing is WinForms, but a lot of the functionality if replicated in GTK# (if not all). It goes back to what I've stated before, the only thing that will need changing is the GUI - doesn't matter on the platform as long as a complete CLR implementation is present. You can program an application in C#.NET for windows phone, then take the code and put it into mono - its still C# and it'll still work - the only thing that will need changing? About 99% of it will just be rebuilding the GUI.

    And, this may shock you, but The Sims 3 is built on MONO, and that runs fine n both MacOS and Windows. *GASP!*
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  • Reply 111 of 115
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post





    That wasn't a cue to tell me what each API is; I know what an API is. I was asking what API layer you were specifically referring to.

    You've never used mono/.NET, have you?

    Mono is used to bring CLR to non Microsoft platforms and quite a lot of bugs have been ironed out - the only thing missing is WinForms, but a lot of the functionality if replicated in GTK# (if not all). It goes back to what I've stated before, the only thing that will need changing is the GUI - doesn't matter on the platform as long as a complete CLR implementation is present. You can program an application in C#.NET for windows phone, then take the code and put it into mono - its still C# and it'll still work - the only thing that will need changing? About 99% of it will just be rebuilding the GUI.

    And, this may shock you, but The Sims 3 is built on MONO, and that runs fine n both MacOS and Windows. *GASP!*


     


    Winform is a great example thank you, Winforms is a UI asset include in Desktop version of .NET IDE but not available on XNA, XBox, WP8 and Windows RT, so any apps that use it on Windows need their UI to be completely redone with other APIs to be ported on other Microsoft platform.  Bring everything to CLR bytecode doesn't mean every CLR VM will be able to run every CLR apps.  .NET VM is just like JavaVM, while technically Android apps are Java, they won't run on any other JavaVM beside Android because uses of proprietary Android API.  Apple got a much greater unification of its platform where Apps can be port between iPhone and iPad without changing a single line of code, and port to or from MacOSX without changing much the code.


     


    And I do know The Sims 3 is built on MONO, but the mac and the PC version of the Sims is forked and maintain as 2 separated product by EA developers and with help of few in-house multi-millions dollars "conversion" DirectX-OpenGL libs, not something a indie developer can get it's hands on. 

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  • Reply 112 of 115

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post


     


    Winform is a great example thank you, Winforms is a UI asset include in Desktop version of .NET IDE but not available on XNA, XBox, WP8 and Windows RT, so any apps that use it on Windows need their UI to be completely redone with other APIs to be ported on other Microsoft platform.  Bring everything to CLR bytecode doesn't mean every CLR VM will be able to run every CLR apps.  .NET VM is just like JavaVM, while technically Android apps are Java, they won't run on any other JavaVM beside Android because uses of proprietary Android API.  Apple got a much greater unification of its platform where Apps can be port between iPhone and iPad without changing a single line of code, and port to or from MacOSX without changing much the code.


     


    And I do know The Sims 3 is built on MONO, but the mac and the PC version of the Sims is forked and maintain as 2 separated product by EA developers and with help of few in-house multi-millions dollars "conversion" DirectX-OpenGL libs, not something a indie developer can get it's hands on. 



    Stop.


    Talking.


    About.


    Bytecode!


     


    The Sims 3 uses OpenGL, not DirectX. Those libraries are not needed. But the Sims 3 is a prime example of something complicated that is multi-platform using a cross platform language like Mono.


     


    Also, with regards to winforms, they are only available on desktop windows and, AS I HAVE STATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN, you will have to tinker with the GUI for ports unless you use something cross platform like QT or GTK#. QT recommended.


     


    For mobile platforms using Mono (for Android and iOS) and .NET (Windows Phone) you wont have to change much at all. Even if you do have to change quite a bit, it'll be a lot easier and quicker than programming each version in their own language.


     


    If you can't see the advantages of programming applications on multiple platforms in the same language, then this conversation is over. :b

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  • Reply 113 of 115
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    Stop.


    Talking.


    About.


    Bytecode!


     


    The Sims 3 uses OpenGL, not DirectX. Those libraries are not needed. But the Sims 3 is a prime example of something complicated that is multi-platform using a cross platform language like Mono.


     


    Also, with regards to winforms, they are only available on desktop windows and, AS I HAVE STATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN, you will have to tinker with the GUI for ports unless you use something cross platform like QT or GTK#. QT recommended.


     


    For mobile platforms using Mono (for Android and iOS) and .NET (Windows Phone) you wont have to change much at all. Even if you do have to change quite a bit, it'll be a lot easier and quicker than programming each version in their own language.


     


    If you can't see the advantages of programming applications on multiple platforms in the same language, then this conversation is over. :b



     


    EA uses Transgaming Cider which mimic private Win32 APIs for bringing PC titles to Mac, it uses OpenGL thru a series of Direct X Shaders JIT conversion libraries. Have you ever peek into a Mac version of The Sim 3? you instantly see DLLs, Windows resources and other Wine hacks to make it work. This is a non-optimal way to quickly port games, It work on a Mac by wasting resources, but you can't apply this "solution" for mobile devices. Mono just like C, C++ or any language along doesn't suffice to make a real cross-platform games. Without third party API like Cider, Mono is not more or less portable than open source Objective-C


     


    here is some info: http://transgaming.com/cider/


     


    QT is a horrible desktop oriented UI assets and no where near usable for mobile platform, you won't see any QT or GTK based apps on WP8, iOS or Android.


     


    If you can't see how mobile apps with touch input need special attention that current desktop UI and API can't handle well, the reason why Apple have split iOS and OSX development on a UI level only. And all of this have nothing to do with which language you use but more on which API you can use depending you are on a mobile or a desktop OS. Then you're right, the conversation is over


     


    P.S. You are the one talking about CLR bytecode, making everything magically working everywhere.  In real world apps, things are not so magical and CLR alone is only the iceberg tips for bringing true cross-platform apps. 

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  • Reply 114 of 115

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post


     


    EA uses Transgaming Cider which mimic private Win32 APIs for bringing PC titles to Mac, it uses OpenGL thru a series of Direct X Shaders JIT conversion libraries. Have you ever peek into a Mac version of The Sim 3? you instantly see DLLs, Windows resources and other Wine hacks to make it work. This is a non-optimal way to quickly port games, It work on a Mac by wasting resources, but you can't apply this "solution" for mobile devices. Mono just like C, C++ or any language along doesn't suffice to make a real cross-platform games. Without third party API like Cider, Mono is not more or less portable than open source Objective-C


     


    here is some info: http://transgaming.com/cider/


     


    QT is a horrible desktop oriented UI assets and no where near usable for mobile platform, you won't see any QT or GTK based apps on WP8, iOS or Android.


     


    If you can't see how mobile apps with touch input need special attention that current desktop UI and API can't handle well, the reason why Apple have split iOS and OSX development on a UI level only. And all of this have nothing to do with which language you use but more on which API you can use depending you are on a mobile or a desktop OS. Then you're right, the conversation is over


     


    P.S. You are the one talking about CLR bytecode, making everything magically working everywhere.  In real world apps, things are not so magical and CLR alone is only the iceberg tips for bringing true cross-platform apps. 



    Lets go through this step by step.


     


     


    Quote:


    EA uses Transgaming Cider which mimic private Win32 APIs for bringing PC titles to Mac, it uses OpenGL thru a series of Direct X Shaders JIT conversion libraries.



    Open GL. Even on Windows.


    Why would it use OpenGL through DirectX? Both are separate APIs. That makes absolutely no sense.


     


    http://www.bing.com/search?q=sims+3+open+gl&form=APPCS1


     


     


    Quote:


    you instantly see DLLs, Windows resources and other Wine hacks to make it work



    It uses Mono; as Mono C# is a re-implementation of C#.NET, it will use the same file extensions. True, it does use Cider, but it requires no more power than the windows counterpart and it is still written in Mono. From what I can find, the use of Cider with the Sims 3 is only for trivial things. You still script everything via Mono, even on MacOS X you can install mono and get jiggy with Modding the game without even touching Cider or compiling .NET ready code.


     


     


    Quote:


    QT is a horrible desktop oriented UI assets and no where near usable for mobile platform, you won't see any QT or GTK based apps on WP8, iOS or Android.



     


    I know its a desktop UI, when did I say it wasn't?


     


     


     


    Quote:


    If you can't see how mobile apps with touch input need special attention that current desktop UI



     


    In every single post I've made, I've stated that you will need to rewrite the GUI. I'm talking about the actual application logic and always have been.


     


     


    Quote:


    And all of this have nothing to do with which language you use but more on which API you can use depending you are on a mobile or a desktop OS



     


    Which is why you use something like Mono and, more recently, Adobe AIR. I know that each OS has a different set of APIs but these cross platform run times use the same syntax on all systems and the runtime underneath it all does all the hard work of taking said syntax and pushing it towards the correct API. That is the point of these systems.


     


     


    Quote:


    You are the one talking about CLR bytecode



     


    CLR == .NET


    You're the one talking about editing byte code directly. :-)


     


     


    Quote:


    making everything magically working everywhere



    I never said that.


     


     


     


     


    So I conclude with this, are you misunderstanding what I am saying? Am I being too obtuse? Am I not explaining myself correctly? Are you misunderstanding what I am getting at when I'm talking about all these cross platform run times? (hint, its not the GUI I'm talking about)

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  • Reply 115 of 115
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


     


    Open GL. Even on Windows.


    Why would it use OpenGL through DirectX? Both are separate APIs. That makes absolutely no sense.


     



     


    EA, Ubisoft, Disney and other major games editor who make Mac port are using Cider.  Cider is an virtualization software that offers a shortcuts development by pipping Windows call and Direct X call into conversion library at runtime, it's basically a Win32 and Direct X virtualization engine like Wine.  So yes The Sim 3 use Direct X on Windows, and OpenGL on mac, but not by running native MacOSX and OpenGL code, those are generated at runtime by Cider.


     


    BTW your links is boggus, go find your info direct to the source next time instead of giving amateur blog result. 


     


    Quote:


    It uses Mono; as Mono C# is a re-implementation of C#.NET, it will use the same file extensions. True, it does use Cider, but it requires no more power than the windows counterpart and it is still written in Mono. From what I can find, the use of Cider with the Sims 3 is only for trivial things. You still script everything via Mono, even on MacOS X you can install mono and get jiggy with Modding the game without even touching Cider or compiling .NET ready code.



    I don't call something that need to run into a virtualization software real cross-platform development. And saying Cider is for trivial things show how much you don't understand it.


     


     


     


    Quote:


    Which is why you use something like Mono and, more recently, Adobe AIR. I know that each OS has a different set of APIs but these cross platform run times use the same syntax on all systems and the runtime underneath it all does all the hard work of taking said syntax and pushing it towards the correct API. That is the point of these systems.



    This where you wrongly taught about Mono being a complete cross-platform development environment like Adobe AIR or Java, which is not.  Mono is only an open source C# compiler and runtime VM, it doesn't not include any system call and OS API need for any Apps to work with system resources. For cross-platform development, having the language is not enough, you need a sets of portable system API to go with, those are parts of the operating system or third party software and won't be included in Mono. Using Mono for compiling C# codes on non-Windows platform doesn't gives any avantages over using open source Objective-C on windows, which is dumb in both case, for doing real cross-platform development you should use real platform agnostic language like C or C++ with real cross-platform API like SDL


     


    Quote:


    CLR == .NET


    You're the one talking about editing byte code directly. :-)




     


    I've aready reply to this with this quote of yours: 


     


    Quote:


    "you can develop for both using CLR alone"



     


    How are you doing that without doing bytecode by hands?


     


    Quote:


    I know its a desktop UI, when did I say it wasn't?



    Are we in the same forum thread? The discussion started about talking WP8 development and Nokia phone

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