Apple stepping up trademark fight against Amazon Appstore

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  • Reply 61 of 77
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    iang1234 wrote: »
    Maybe that's not a good explanation from me why "app store" is generic.

    Let me put it this way. Before Apple launched its "App Store", if someone says "app store" to you what would you imagine? if it's a store that sells app then I would say the term is generic. Now compare it to "taco bell".

    Then how do you explain all the legal businesses that use the name store, shop, shoppe, etc. in their name?

    www.myweddingatlizclintons.com/
    http://www.thecandlestore.com
    http://www.thecandystoresf.com

    You can probably spend hours finding legitimate and legal businesses that use a generic and common word before the word store in their name. This is how they are incorporated. Is your argument really that I can use the exact same name as this store and open up shop right next store and it's perfectly okay because someone at some point using the combinations of the words in together? You certainly can't or this would be impossible for the get go.
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  • Reply 62 of 77

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    Then how do you explain all the legal businesses that use the name store, shop, shoppe, etc. in their name?


     


     


    Generally, they are not merely descriptive, like App Store.


     


    If somebody tried to obtain Trademark registration for the name Coffee Shop to describe, well, a coffee shop, they would meet the same fate as Apple trying to register App Store.

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  • Reply 63 of 77


    I'm going to open up a pizza restaurant and call it "Pizzahut".


     


    Since I combined "Pizza" and "hut" into a single word, I should have no problems with using such a name.


     


    Maybe I could also do "Burgerking" or "Dairyqueen". Maybe I could separate an existing one and open a "Sub Way" sandwich shop.

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  • Reply 64 of 77
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    I'm going to open up a pizza restaurant and call it "Pizzahut".

    Since I combined "Pizza" and "hut" into a single word, I should have no problems with using such a name.

    Maybe I could also do "Burgerking" or "Dairyqueen". Maybe I could separate an existing one and open a "Sub Way" sandwich shop.

    I hope Jack in the Box isn't describing what employees do to your food.
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  • Reply 65 of 77

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    Amazon has Amazon Appstore which I don't think is confusing since it's always presented in that way. Unless Apple can show that iPhone users are going to Amazon's site to buy apps that don't work on their iDevices I don't think Apple has a case they can win.


     


    Why do iPhone users have to go purchase something at Amazon before it's an issue? Using a popular and recognized name could get your own customers to purchase more content, or get users to switch from Google Play to the Amazon Appstore. As long as Amazon is benefitting from the name it doesn't matter where the customers come from.

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  • Reply 66 of 77

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    I hope Jack in the Box isn't describing what employees do to your food.


     


    There was an employee of Mr. Sub (Canadian sub chain) back in high school who was charged for putting "special sauce" on subs on the graveyard shift. To this day I still get leary about ordering a sub in a shop where there's only one guy working and he looks like he hasn't had any customers all night.

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  • Reply 67 of 77
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Why do iPhone users have to go purchase something at Amazon before it's an issue? Using a popular and recognized name could get your own customers to purchase more content, or get users to switch from Google Play to the Amazon Appstore. As long as Amazon is benefitting from the name it doesn't matter where the customers come from.

    Hmm... Interesting way of putting it. I think Amazon can benefit from the name the way the world has benefited from following Apple's lead in how to design PCs, smartphones and tablets, without directly copying; but they can't do is hurt Apple by the use of their name. I'm not sure Apple could successful argue that they've either been hurt or that it's confusing to customers.
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  • Reply 68 of 77
    malaxmalax Posts: 1,598member


    Frankly I think they (Apple and Amazon) are both wrong.  App Store is pretty generic (even if Apple did popularize the use of the term "app" is was around in nerdy circles for years before the iPhone, etc.), so they were silly for trying to trademark it.  The lawyers in my company would refer to even try to trademark a descriptive term like that because of the high likelihood of losing.  So Apple never should have tried to trademark it.  On the other hand, as others have pointed out Amazon Appstore is a lazy, stupid name and is more likely to be confused with Apple App Store than something like Amazon River of Apps or Amazon Apps.


     


    But until Apple loses their trademark registration (which they might not of course), it makes sense to keep fighting the good fight.  


     


    Speaking of ripoffs though, how's this one (which I noticed on my first trip to the Amazon Appstore for Androids):


    http://www.amazon.com/Calculator-Pro-Kindle-Fire-Edition/dp/B008I43DYU/ref=pd_rhf_cr_p_t_1


     


    a) Really, the Fire doesn't come with a friggin' calculator for free?


    b) That's a good looking icon and calculator layout.  I wonder where ever they got the inspiration.  The color choices are intriguing.

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  • Reply 69 of 77
    rednivalrednival Posts: 331member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post


    Blackberry has "App World"


    Google has "Google Play" (formerly "Android Market")


    Microsoft has "Marketplace"


    Apple has "App Store"


    Amazon has "Appstore"


     


    And people wonder why Apple is mad? Use the exact same term as Apple, but take out the space between "App" and "store". Come on, Amazon, everyone else has unique names - you can't even spend 5 minutes to come up with your own?



     


     


    After seeing this I guess I see Apple's point.  I don't know if they can win because these are two generic words, but trademarks and court victories have been won over this much or less.


     


    Personally, I think it looks a little bad for both of them.  Apple is fighting to protect something as obvious and generic as "App Store" and Amazon is fighting back as if they can't come up with anything better.  Both must believe they are standing on some sort of principal I suppose.  


     


    I will say this.  If Amazon is able to prove "app store" has entered the language as a description for any...er...app store, Apple could loose this case.  So I have no idea how this will turn out.


     


    But I guess I have at least gone from thinking Apple has no case to seeing where the issue lies... 

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  • Reply 70 of 77
    hungoverhungover Posts: 603member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by malax View Post


    Frankly I think they (Apple and Amazon) are both wrong.  App Store is pretty generic (even if Apple did popularize the use of the term "app" is was around in nerdy circles for years before the iPhone, etc.), so they were silly for trying to trademark it.  The lawyers in my company would refer to even try to trademark a descriptive term like that because of the high likelihood of losing.  So Apple never should have tried to trademark it.  On the other hand, as others have pointed out Amazon Appstore is a lazy, stupid name and is more likely to be confused with Apple App Store than something like Amazon River of Apps or Amazon Apps.


     


    But until Apple loses their trademark registration (which they might not of course), it makes sense to keep fighting the good fight.  


     


    Speaking of ripoffs though, how's this one (which I noticed on my first trip to the Amazon Appstore for Androids):


    http://www.amazon.com/Calculator-Pro-Kindle-Fire-Edition/dp/B008I43DYU/ref=pd_rhf_cr_p_t_1


     


    a) Really, the Fire doesn't come with a friggin' calculator for free?


    b) That's a good looking icon and calculator layout.  I wonder where ever they got the inspiration.  The color choices are intriguing.



     I don't believe that it ships with a calculator app but can perform calculations  from the search box.


     


    I thought that the Ipad also ships without a calculator...


     


    The icon does look similar to this one


     


    http://itunes.apple.com/in/app/calculator-for-ipad-free/id398129933?mt=8


     


    But Apalon also have a calculator app for itunes


     


    http://itunes.apple.com/in/app/calculator-pro-for-ipad-free/id401862018?mt=8


     


    I have no idea which was first though, and thus who copied the other.

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  • Reply 71 of 77
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,474member


    Poll time....


     


    How many people go to www.amazon.com to look for apps for their iPad or iPhone?  On a side note, the concept of a store with 1 click to install was development long before there was an iPhone.  As for "Appstore", I can't find a reference before Apple stated using the name.

     

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  • Reply 72 of 77
    rednivalrednival Posts: 331member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by icoco3 View Post


    Poll time....


     


    How many people go to www.amazon.com to look for apps for their iPad or iPhone?  On a side note, the concept of a store with 1 click to install was development long before there was an iPhone.  As for "Appstore", I can't find a reference before Apple stated using the name.

     



     


    Honestly, I have thought that too.  I would suspect in the world of trademark law though the argument won't work.  While their app stores do not compete directly, Apple devices do compete (at some level) with Amazon devices.  I seems like the argument that the Apple and Amazon app stores do not compete could be disproved by a slick-talking lawyer.


     


    I think the better argument for Amazon is that "app store" has become a generic name used in the industry.  Apple will of course argue it is designed to intentionally "confuse customers" (among other things).


     


    I just find the whole thing interesting and bizarre.  I honestly think they both have decent arguments, though I still say it is a pretty crazy thing to go to court over.  It would seem to me if  Amazon simply called it the Kindle Store or Marketplace it would satisfy Apple and build on the strength of the Kindle brand.  (Please don't rip this apart because you hate Amazon.  I know some of you think no one in the tech industry is as good as Apple, but that doesn't change the fact that I know plenty of die hard Kindle fans.  Not due to the Fire but because of their e-ink devices- just to clarify.  You're free to hate e-ink...but plenty of people would disagree)


     


    In the end, why Amazon would rather face Apple in court than change a name is beyond me...

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  • Reply 73 of 77
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    What you think is probably irrelevant. (I, for instance, think the opposite, but would say the same thing about my own view). The only thing that matters is what Apple thinks.



    image


     


    I'm pretty sure that at one time we supported the opposite of that statement.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post


    Blackberry has "App World"


    Google has "Google Play" (formerly "Android Market")


    Microsoft has "Marketplace"


    Apple has "App Store"


    Amazon has "Appstore"


     


    And people wonder why Apple is mad? Use the exact same term as Apple, but take out the space between "App" and "store". Come on, Amazon, everyone else has unique names - you can't even spend 5 minutes to come up with your own?



     


    Actually Apple has been a bit confusing themselves here. I suspect it was because they weren't certain they were going to allow apps on the iPhone at first and had to be convinced by all the jailbreakers out there. You can go to the app store app (talk about confusing terminology there) and it will declare it cannot connect with the iTunes Store.


     


    When you look under iTunes, your content is shown and one category of content is "apps". The same categories are listed under the iTunes store with the exception of apps. So you have a music category and you buy your music from the iTunes store. You have TV shows or podcasts that you purchase from the iTunes store. You have apps but you buy them from the app store within the iTunes store.


     


    You complain about use of the term but the phrase is generic. McDonald's can sue if you sell a Big Mac or even a BigMac. However can they sue if you sell a hamburger claiming they filed a trademark claim but it just wasn't awarded yet?


     


    I think Apple's legacy here might actually harm their case. Most other phones just directly access their store through web interfaces or apps on their phones. The fact that Apple started with access through their iTunes store certainly helped folks transition from their iPods but could also hurt their case since it wasn't a standalone store but a sub-category within a larger store. It is still set up this way even today. There is also the fact that third parties had to convince Apple to allow apps which means there is certainly prior examples of stores before Apple's.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    What some people seem to be forgetting is that with trademarks, you are required to aggressively defend them, so Apple is essentially required to sue anyone who might be infringing their trademark, or risk losing it.


     


    But, Amazon is clearly infringing the "APP STORE" trademark by using "Appstore" as part of the name of their store. The App Store (Apple's) is frequently referred to as the Apple App Store, and Amazon Appstore sounds like exactly the same thing, just from Amazon instead of Apple. Removing a space from the trademark doesn't make it magically not confusing. And Amazon wants it to be confusing so everyone thinks it's just like Apple's App Store. And it's not a generic term at all, it only seems that way because The App Store seems like it's always been there and that we've always had 'apps', but that's not an accurate representation of history.


     


    If we took it the other way around, and they were inserting a space, it would be just the same. If Dunkin Donuts opened a set of stores called Dunkin Donuts Star Bucks, does anyone not think that there would be confusion? Does anyone not think the public would think it was some sort of joint venture between Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks? Does anyone not think that Starbucks would have it's lawyers filing suit before the end of the day?



     


    The problem with your reasoning here is that you misrepresent and then falsely equate. You are right that that people refer to the Apple App Store but phrase is generic. Also the only way you can get to the App Store is through the iTunes Store. That greatly confuses the issue. You could say Apple cellular phone store or Apple computer store and sue everyone who sells phones or computers. Dunkin Donuts does not sell Dunkins and Starbucks does not in fact sell star bucks. If they tried to sue anyone who had the name donut in their name or coffee in their name, we would be laughing them out of court.


     


    Apple made their bed back when they decided to leverage iTunes to jump start the iPhone. They advertised it as three devices in one, an iPod being one of them. Clearly they are trying to move away from that now with the iTunes app becoming Music and Videos in iOS5 and their recent release of the (profoundly terrible) Podcasting app. However I don't think they'll be able to have their cake and eat it too. You have to remember that even iPod click-wheel games used to be purchased through the iTunes Store under the App Store category.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by iang1234 View Post


     


    Microsoft does not sell windows and Amazon is not about the river. Guess what "app store" is about? App and store! So yes it's generic and should not be trademark-ed.



     


     


    I'd say that it is worse than generic, and that it is merely descriptive, like "table".



     


    You may be right.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post


    I'm going to open up a pizza restaurant and call it "Pizzahut".


     


    Since I combined "Pizza" and "hut" into a single word, I should have no problems with using such a name.


     


    Maybe I could also do "Burgerking" or "Dairyqueen". Maybe I could separate an existing one and open a "Sub Way" sandwich shop.



     


    You might have a case if you in fact sell huts for pizzas, and find some way to sell only to kings and queens of various industries. However if you are McDonald's and sue declaring that you have filed for trademark on the word hamburger and Burger King has the word in their name, you'd lose. If you sued everyone who had the word "Dairy" in their name, you'd also lose. If you were Subway and tried to actually get every other shop that has the word sub as part of their name to change it, you'd lose.

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  • Reply 74 of 77


    It's called the "Amazon Appstore for android" according to my phone. Even if they get rid of "for android" which they did not it's still called "Amazon Appstore".


     


    I don't understand why apple is mad and it seems frivolous. 

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  • Reply 75 of 77


    I don't think Apple will win this one. Apple is in the same position Bayer was in with the trademark of Aspirin. Aspirin used to be a product until everyone started using the word to describe "Headache Medicine". The word "App" has become synonymous to mobile software. The word is now an identifier of an object, and therefore having an "App" Store, is the same as saying Old Navy "Clothing" Store, or such. App Store is a store that sells Mobile Software.

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  • Reply 76 of 77
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by mrrodriguez View Post

    I don't think Apple will win this one. Apple is in the same position Bayer was in with the trademark of Aspirin. Aspirin used to be a product until everyone started using the word to describe "Headache Medicine". The word "App" has become synonymous to mobile software. The word is now an identifier of an object, and therefore having an "App" Store, is the same as saying Old Navy "Clothing" Store, or such. App Store is a store that sells Mobile Software.


     


    Yes, just like Xerox, Kleenex, and Band-Aid have lost the rights to their names and now everyone can call anything they want by… 


     


    Ah.

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  • Reply 77 of 77
    hungoverhungover Posts: 603member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrrodriguez View Post


    I don't think Apple will win this one. Apple is in the same position Bayer was in with the trademark of Aspirin. Aspirin used to be a product until everyone started using the word to describe "Headache Medicine". The word "App" has become synonymous to mobile software. The word is now an identifier of an object, and therefore having an "App" Store, is the same as saying Old Navy "Clothing" Store, or such. App Store is a store that sells Mobile Software.



    Bayer lost their trademark following the end of the first world war. The winners allowed firms to use aspirin, in time it became generic. "Bayer Aspirin" is however a trademark and inspite of losing their exclusivity it is the best selling brand in the world.

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