How would he know? Apple doesn't use it yet, meanwhile it's been on laptops for years.
Yeah but it is crap, and used on laptops as the sole method of logging on. I don't see Apple integrating this unless it is used in addition to other security methods.
As I said above, my whole house and everything I touch has my fingerprint on it, including the stolen iPhone or laptop the thief wants to break into!
It's convoluted, but no real biggie for a determined hacker, I'm sure the criminal network already has 'go to' guys that specialise in this sort of thing.
Hmm, I wonder if the sensor could be placed on the existing circle/square ([]) button on iOS devices. If so you'd be entering your fingerprint every time you push it and the look/operation of the devices wouldn't have to change one bit.
It's convoluted, but no real biggie for a determined hacker, I'm sure the criminal network already has 'go to' guys that specialise in this sort of thing.
But seriously, if fingerprinting becomes prevalent, extracting and duplicating finger prints will become easier too. Kits and software will be sold on the black market for any criminal wishing to purchase.
A quick scan, and a 3D printer, it could be done within minutes.
If you think of the skills involved in cracking a password, lifting a fingerprint is a no-brainer by comparison!
Guys you can have passcode protection as well as if somebody chopped your finger off. If they get your finger and your passcode then you've got bigger problems than someone drunk-dialing your business associates.
As always, given how much of our lives are digital, the real problem is the cesspool that is Windows and Android in terms of security and hacking. Then there's always backdoors like when my Skype account got hacked.
Yeah but it is crap, and used on laptops as the sole method of logging on. I don't see Apple integrating this unless it is used in addition to other security methods.
As I said above, my whole house and everything I touch has my fingerprint on it, including the stolen iPhone or laptop the thief wants to break into!
I think unless you work for the CIA, that the fact that it's *possible* in a CSI kind of way, to fake a fingerprint is not the same thing as it being a real risk. The odds of a crackhead or meth addict (the most likely thief of your iPhone), using these methods are pretty slim.
That being said, you are completely right about it being a poor method of security. Even ignoring fraud, in any large city there are usually a couple of other people with the same (or similar enough for the scanner), fingerprints as any particular individual. The key, (and I think you are the first to mention it on this thread), is to use it as only one part of a multi-pronged security system. Fingerprint plus password or fingerprint plus voice analysis or fingerprint plus picture are all far more secure than any of those methods alone without the fingerprint.
But seriously, if fingerprinting becomes prevalent, extracting and duplicating finger prints will become easier too. Kits and software will be sold on the black market for any criminal wishing to purchase.
A quick scan, and a 3D printer, it could be done within minutes.
If you think of the skills involved in cracking a password, lifting a fingerprint is a no-brainer by comparison!
Who says it has to be fingerprints? It involves detecting a pattern and matching it to a known entity... They could use the front-facing camera and do an eye scan, face scan, hand scan.... maybe use the rear-facing camera for those who like to drop drawer and sit on the Xerox machine.
Seriously, though, I suspect that Apple will be adding higher quality front-facing cameras to their Computers and iDevices -- and these could accommodate reliable security scanning (not the Google kind).
In the Risk Factors portion of Microsoft’s latest annual report, the company says quite bluntly, “Our Surface devices will compete with products made by our OEM partners, which may affect their commitment to our platform.”
What happened to retina scanning? The iPhone has a camera and a light. Granted this is kind of overkill when paying for your latte at Starbucks.
But seriously most security measures currently in use can be defeated, and the more ubiquitous the method, the more the thieves will have access to the tools, fingerprints will be no different should they become the defacto standard.
But with a reasonable amount of responsibility, the EUs adoption of chip N pin, seems the most practical. Put a unique chip in the phone that is hard to replicate, and then give the user a pin code. That way, the user must have the device and must know the code.
If the device is stolen, you shut it down. If your pin is compromised, you change it. Simple.
For added security, the chip transmits a picture of the user to the POS terminal, which polls the users online account information for confirmation, or better yet a government Passport database. Could this be hacked if the device is compromised? Sure ... That's why credit card companies stopped allowing customers to put their photos as IDs on their credit cards. But all of these things in connection with each other will surely make it difficult to do casually.
Maybe have the chip on a sim card that must be paired with the device, and registered online, so that you can't change any of the imbedded info on the phone without replacing the chip, and both must be registered with the users online account and verified by the user through separate verifications. This way, the device can easily be sold to someone else, but can't be easily hacked to access the users wallet.
The weak link is the password, which is true for any account anywhere in the world. It's hard for me to believe there is any foolproof way to handle this kind of security that doesnt rely on the user to take some minimal responsibility, which is what these efforts to use fingerprints, face recognition, voice authentication etc. seem to be trying to do.
Of course none of this will prevent identity theft, which this kind of technology could actually facilitate.
I think unless you work for the CIA, that the fact that it's *possible* in a CSI kind of way, to fake a fingerprint is not the same thing as it being a real risk. The odds of a crackhead or meth addict (the most likely thief of your iPhone), using these methods are pretty slim.
You might be surprised, I've known a few dodgy characters in my time, and they are pretty well organised. Sure the crackheads couldn't do it themselves, but there's a 'man who can' for everything. They steal it, take it to 'bob', bob gives them a fraction of it's worth, extracts the data passes data onto 'jim' (who deals in identity theft), installs a new OS then sells it.
Every crack head knows a 'bob'. And not every 'bob' can currently crack fingerprints, but over time black market gadgets will be commonplace within the criminal world.
Like the ATM overlays which are made in china that copy your pin number and info on the magnetic strip. Just a matter of time.
I probably should have said "in Canada" (what I know for a fact) instead of "outside of the USA" (a likely assumption given the facts).
I am getting pretty sick and tired of Apple's spotty support for anything outside of the USA though. For most of the time Apple has been in existence, Canada got the products and software at the same time as the USA. Now they are international, some things show up in the UK before they show up here, some don't. Some things don't show up here for years and years after their official release.
It's not like Canada is f*cking Afghanistan or some other mysogynist backwater of a country. It's not like we speak another language or have some extremely cryptic regional dialect like Scotland, Wales and England. We speak better English up here than the UK or the USA in that we pronounce and spell everything the correct way but don't have the wacky unintelligible accents that the Brits enjoy.
In a few months we will get iOS 6 but in Canada, but Siri (an iOS 5 feature), still doesn't work on any iOS devices, and dictation doesn't work or works poorly on all iOS devices and all Macs because there is no Canadian "voice."
Comments
Thank heavens we've all seen countless movies with guides to making a replica of a fingerprint using MI kits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69
How would he know? Apple doesn't use it yet, meanwhile it's been on laptops for years.
Yeah but it is crap, and used on laptops as the sole method of logging on. I don't see Apple integrating this unless it is used in addition to other security methods.
As I said above, my whole house and everything I touch has my fingerprint on it, including the stolen iPhone or laptop the thief wants to break into!
So how do you replicate the finger print push? Maybe a finger print in combination with a password might be the way to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU
So how do you replicate the finger print push?
It's convoluted, but no real biggie for a determined hacker, I'm sure the criminal network already has 'go to' guys that specialise in this sort of thing.
Hmm, I wonder if the sensor could be placed on the existing circle/square ([]) button on iOS devices. If so you'd be entering your fingerprint every time you push it and the look/operation of the devices wouldn't have to change one bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
It's convoluted, but no real biggie for a determined hacker, I'm sure the criminal network already has 'go to' guys that specialise in this sort of thing.
It is really easy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ochyming
It is really easy.
Yeah or you could just chop the finger off!
But seriously, if fingerprinting becomes prevalent, extracting and duplicating finger prints will become easier too. Kits and software will be sold on the black market for any criminal wishing to purchase.
A quick scan, and a 3D printer, it could be done within minutes.
If you think of the skills involved in cracking a password, lifting a fingerprint is a no-brainer by comparison!
As always, given how much of our lives are digital, the real problem is the cesspool that is Windows and Android in terms of security and hacking. Then there's always backdoors like when my Skype account got hacked.
Chaos is in the mind.
That being said, you are completely right about it being a poor method of security. Even ignoring fraud, in any large city there are usually a couple of other people with the same (or similar enough for the scanner), fingerprints as any particular individual. The key, (and I think you are the first to mention it on this thread), is to use it as only one part of a multi-pronged security system. Fingerprint plus password or fingerprint plus voice analysis or fingerprint plus picture are all far more secure than any of those methods alone without the fingerprint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
Yeah or you could just chop the finger off!
But seriously, if fingerprinting becomes prevalent, extracting and duplicating finger prints will become easier too. Kits and software will be sold on the black market for any criminal wishing to purchase.
A quick scan, and a 3D printer, it could be done within minutes.
If you think of the skills involved in cracking a password, lifting a fingerprint is a no-brainer by comparison!
Who says it has to be fingerprints? It involves detecting a pattern and matching it to a known entity... They could use the front-facing camera and do an eye scan, face scan, hand scan.... maybe use the rear-facing camera for those who like to drop drawer and sit on the Xerox machine.
Seriously, though, I suspect that Apple will be adding higher quality front-facing cameras to their Computers and iDevices -- and these could accommodate reliable security scanning (not the Google kind).
Dictated and typed on my iMac.
OT for this thread:
Quote:
In the Risk Factors portion of Microsoft’s latest annual report, the company says quite bluntly, “Our Surface devices will compete with products made by our OEM partners, which may affect their commitment to our platform.”
http://allthingsd.com/20120727/microsoft-okay-maybe-we-are-alienating-pc-makers-with-surface/
With apologies to Ray Charles:
Oh, it's cryin' time again, you're gonna leave me
I can see that far away look in your eyes
I can tell by the way you hold me darlin' Oooh
That it won't be long before it's cryin' time
Now they say that absence makes the heart grow fonder (fonder)
And that tears are only rain to make love grow
Well my love for you could never grow no stronger (stronger)
If I lived to be a hundred years old
Oh, it's cryin' time again, you're gonna leave me
I can see that far away look in your eyes
I can tell by the way you hold me darlin'. Yeah now
That it won't be long before it's cryin' time
Now you say you've found someone that you love better (better)
That's the way it's happened every time before
And as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow ('morrow)
Cryin' time will start when you walk out the door
Oh, it's cryin' time again, you're gonna leave me
I can see that far away look in your eyes
I can tell by the way you hold me darlin'. Alright now
That it won't be long before it's cryin' time
(That it won't be long before it's cryin' time)
But seriously most security measures currently in use can be defeated, and the more ubiquitous the method, the more the thieves will have access to the tools, fingerprints will be no different should they become the defacto standard.
But with a reasonable amount of responsibility, the EUs adoption of chip N pin, seems the most practical. Put a unique chip in the phone that is hard to replicate, and then give the user a pin code. That way, the user must have the device and must know the code.
If the device is stolen, you shut it down. If your pin is compromised, you change it. Simple.
For added security, the chip transmits a picture of the user to the POS terminal, which polls the users online account information for confirmation, or better yet a government Passport database. Could this be hacked if the device is compromised? Sure ... That's why credit card companies stopped allowing customers to put their photos as IDs on their credit cards. But all of these things in connection with each other will surely make it difficult to do casually.
Maybe have the chip on a sim card that must be paired with the device, and registered online, so that you can't change any of the imbedded info on the phone without replacing the chip, and both must be registered with the users online account and verified by the user through separate verifications. This way, the device can easily be sold to someone else, but can't be easily hacked to access the users wallet.
The weak link is the password, which is true for any account anywhere in the world. It's hard for me to believe there is any foolproof way to handle this kind of security that doesnt rely on the user to take some minimal responsibility, which is what these efforts to use fingerprints, face recognition, voice authentication etc. seem to be trying to do.
Of course none of this will prevent identity theft, which this kind of technology could actually facilitate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
I think unless you work for the CIA, that the fact that it's *possible* in a CSI kind of way, to fake a fingerprint is not the same thing as it being a real risk. The odds of a crackhead or meth addict (the most likely thief of your iPhone), using these methods are pretty slim.
You might be surprised, I've known a few dodgy characters in my time, and they are pretty well organised. Sure the crackheads couldn't do it themselves, but there's a 'man who can' for everything. They steal it, take it to 'bob', bob gives them a fraction of it's worth, extracts the data passes data onto 'jim' (who deals in identity theft), installs a new OS then sells it.
Every crack head knows a 'bob'. And not every 'bob' can currently crack fingerprints, but over time black market gadgets will be commonplace within the criminal world.
Like the ATM overlays which are made in china that copy your pin number and info on the magnetic strip. Just a matter of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
Except dictation is another one of those features that's currently only available in the USA!
Are you sure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Are you sure?
My dictation isn't working in the UK. I thought it was just my computer behaving odd.
You are way too kind. He said '...in the USA'. As in 'location'; not the most clever post¡
Why just 'or'? Let them try posting from an iPhone and an iPad as well! Double the pain!
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
My dictation isn't working in the UK. I thought it was just my computer behaving odd.
Sorry... I can't resist:
With apologies to Sexy Rexy
Quote:
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique.
If you spoke as she does, sir, Instead of the way you do,
Why, you might be selling flowers, too.
An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
The moment he talks he makes some other
Englishman despise him.
One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't the English learn to set
A good example to people whose
English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely
disappears.
In America, they haven't used it for years!
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks have taught their
Greek. In France every Frenchman knows
his language fro "A" to "Zed"
The French never care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce in properly.
Arabians learn Arabian with the speed of summer lightning.
And Hebrews learn it backwards,
which is absolutely frightening.
But use proper English you're regarded as a freak.
Why can't the English,
Why can't the English learn to speak?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Sorry... I can't resist:...
Oh it's not the way I'm speaking! The little microphone VU doesn't show input. However, I have mic input on all other audio apps working fine.
I am developing a bunch of core audio apps at the mo, so might be something I have done which has broken it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Are you sure?
I probably should have said "in Canada" (what I know for a fact) instead of "outside of the USA" (a likely assumption given the facts).
I am getting pretty sick and tired of Apple's spotty support for anything outside of the USA though. For most of the time Apple has been in existence, Canada got the products and software at the same time as the USA. Now they are international, some things show up in the UK before they show up here, some don't. Some things don't show up here for years and years after their official release.
It's not like Canada is f*cking Afghanistan or some other mysogynist backwater of a country. It's not like we speak another language or have some extremely cryptic regional dialect like Scotland, Wales and England. We speak better English up here than the UK or the USA in that we pronounce and spell everything the correct way but don't have the wacky unintelligible accents that the Brits enjoy.
In a few months we will get iOS 6 but in Canada, but Siri (an iOS 5 feature), still doesn't work on any iOS devices, and dictation doesn't work or works poorly on all iOS devices and all Macs because there is no Canadian "voice."