And if the iPad were a PC. these numbers would be relevant.
It's not, so they aren't. I notice that the same people who poo poo'ed Netbooks as not being real PC's just a few years ago are largely behind this move to mainstream the iPad as a computing device, and not a glorified iPod Touch with a larger screen, interestingly enough.
Dig deeply enough, and you'll discover that the definition of "PC" ends up being "the box that does precisely and only what I've been doing with it for the past 20 years."
Mention the myriad of things an iPad does that the old-school PC doesn't, and the cricket-chirping is deafening.
Sorry, but the ability write code and create humungous spreadsheets is FAR from the full definition of a PC.
You lost me there. Are you saying it should or shouldn't be labeled a "PC" by every consumer, OEM and analyst?
I think that's a valid argument for how the iPad has effected the PC market and how the iPad fits into the consumer electronic market as a whole, but for a standard classification I just see the iPad being called a "PC" despite how it is, by pedant definition a personal computer.
I wonder where the Surface and other Win8 devices are going to fit it in. I can see people now saying how Win8 is a "real" OS despite pretty much the same limitations and control for Win8 on ARM-based systems.
Here's an interesting test you can perform yourself:
Given:
The WART will ship with a pre-release version of Office 2013 (not all apps) -- presumably October 2012
The WIPT will ship with a full release of Office 2013 -- presumably 1Q 2013
The top levels of Office 2013 have been rewritten for touch, but lower levels are unchanged and barely usable
Office 2013 apps are pretty much what you have now with features added
iWork on the Mac is a low cost alternative to Office for many users (not as robust as MS Office)
iWork on iPad was completely rewritten for touch and some features from thr Mac version were removed
So here's the interesting test/exercise... to see how well a basic office app, Word Processing, performs:
the touch version on a touch device -- iPad
the non-touch (desktop) version on a touch device -- iPad
Get the SplashTop Streamer app for the Mac and the xDisplay app for the iPad and install them. This allows you to mirror the Mac display on the iPad
start both apps
launch Pages on the Mac
launch Pages on the iPad
set both to share the the same document through iCloud
Now any changes you make to the document from the Mac or the iPad will be reflected on the other device... pretty neat, but with a few rough spots.
Here's the test:
With xDisplay on the iPad you can run the desktop version of Pages (running on the Mac) on the iPad -- then switch to the touch version of Pages running on the iPad.
This gives you a pretty good feel for what Apple did to make Pages work acceptable on the iPad -- and what features they dropped to simplify the iPad version and the UI.
It also gives you an idea how useful Pages would be on the iPad if they had just ported the desktop version to the iPad -- retaining the same layout and UI.
I think you would agree that the desktop version of Pages is not very useful on a touch device -- the iPad.
Now, consider, that Pages is nowhere as feature-rich, complex, busy UI as MS Word. Yet, MS plans to bring Office with little change (some cosmetic and high-level UI changes) to the WART and the WIPT.
I suggest to you that Word and Office will be pretty much unusable on the WART.
I suggest that Word and Office will be marginally usable on the WIPT -- only when the WIPT is used with a kb & trackpad -- used as a laptop.
I suggest that the going to a lobotomized "desktop" on the WART to effectively use Word/Office will only complicates the situation.
I suggest that going through Metro to get to Word/Office on the WIPT will only complicate the situation.
In summary, I don't believe that WART will be successful, at all, and that WIPT won't be successful as a tablet.
I notice that the same people who poo poo'ed Netbooks as not being real PC's just a few years ago are largely behind this move to mainstream the iPad as a computing device, and not a glorified iPod Touch with a larger screen, interestingly enough.
It would seem that the earlier assumptions of the iPad's capability were wrong. Perhaps it was the tight integration of software to the hardware that threw the early critics. In the PC era throwing massive RAM and multi-core power-hungry hardware at a problem was the way to solve problems created by sloppy software. It was easy to believe the iPad couldn't do complex tasks because the specs weren't in line with the PC specs.
Apple has proved that hardware specs don't tell the whole story when it comes to tightly integrated hardware running highly optimized software. Results rule.
It would seem that the earlier assumptions of the iPad's capability were wrong. Perhaps it was the tight integration of software to the hardware that threw the early critics. In the PC era throwing massive RAM and multi-core power-hungry hardware at a problem was the way to solve problems created by sloppy software. It was easy to believe the iPad couldn't do complex tasks because the specs weren't in line with the PC specs.
Apple has proved that hardware specs don't tell the whole story when it comes to tightly integrated hardware running highly optimized software. Results rule.
I would not go so far as to say all desktop software was sloppy, unless you want to throw OS X and all of Apple's professional apps in that category as well. The iPad is different than a desktop in many ways. It is reasonably good at some things and terrible at others. The major limitations with iPad in my view are - not a very precise pointing device and lack of a file system, along with fairly awkward multitasking system. On the plus side it has good portability and inexpensive price. The desktop has many advantages but the main disadvantages are that it is not at all portable and is also more expensive.
The size and system requirements of applications cannot be summed up as sloppy on the desktop and optimized on the iPad because they are two different environments. If I lived in a large house with big rooms I have the option of buying a pool table and inviting 20 people over for dinner. If I lived in a studio apartment, well... you get the idea.
Dig deeply enough, and you'll discover that the definition of "PC" ends up being "the box that does precisely and only what I've been doing with it for the past 20 years."
Mention the myriad of things an iPad does that the old-school PC doesn't, and the cricket-chirping is deafening.
Sorry, but the ability write code and create humungous spreadsheets is FAR from the full definition of a PC.
Have a couple of questions for ya
How do you set up your new wireless router (out of the box) with an iPad?
How do update the maps on your GPS with an iPad?
How do you update the firmware on your camera with an iPad?
How do you rip your CD/DVD collection with an iPad?
How do you do colour management on your printer with an iPad?
How do you run Final Cut Pro or Aperture on an iPad?
How do you set up seperate user accounts on an iPad?
How do you set up your new wireless router (out of the box) with an iPad?
How do update the maps on your GPS with an iPad?
How do you update the firmware on your camera with an iPad?
How do you rip your CD/DVD collection with an iPad?
How do you do colour management on your printer with an iPad?
How do you run Final Cut Pro or Aperture on an iPad?
How do you set up seperate user accounts on an iPad?
Cricket chirping...
1) Doable.
2) Doable.
3) Doable.
4) Irrelevant.
5) Doable.
6) No applicable.
7) Funny how the more personal a computer is the less of a personal computer it gets labeled as.
How do you set up your new wireless router (out of the box) with an iPad?
How do update the maps on your GPS with an iPad?
How do you update the firmware on your camera with an iPad?
How do you rip your CD/DVD collection with an iPad?
How do you do colour management on your printer with an iPad?
How do you run Final Cut Pro or Aperture on an iPad?
How do you set up seperate user accounts on an iPad?
Cricket chirping...
LOL, you really don't get it, do you?
The "PC" isn't defined by your specific list of desired tasks. It's not a checklist. It's defined by the marketplace. When a significant number of people start purchasing a device in lieu of an existing type of device, well, the definition of that existing device has changed, mostly because the general public's overall needs are now being covered by the device.
Note that the original IBM PC couldn't do any of the things on your list, but people still consider it a PC. Same with the original Apple II and the first Mac.
The definition is fluid and moves with the times.
Unlike you.
In addition to responses listed above refuting your points, I will point out that there are video editing and image editing apps. The definition of a PC definitely isn't tied to one specific branded application (like Final Cut Pro). Saying that "iPad has iMovie or Avid Studio" is sufficient to refute point #6.
I'll also point out that many -- if not most -- routers have featured a browser-based admin interface over the past ten years. You connect to the router via WiFi, enter the admin login and password (per the user manual) and begin configuration.
But keep pumping out nonsensical, poorly reasoned blathering. It fits in well with much of the other commentary here at AppleInsider.
How do you set up your new wireless router (out of the box) with an iPad?
How do update the maps on your GPS with an iPad?
How do you update the firmware on your camera with an iPad?
How do you rip your CD/DVD collection with an iPad?
How do you do colour management on your printer with an iPad?
How do you run Final Cut Pro or Aperture on an iPad?
How do you set up seperate user accounts on an iPad?
Cricket chirping...
The definition of a PC was created in the 1980s.... in a time when NONE of that stuff even existed.
Was the IBM PC 5150 not a PC because CD drives weren't invented yet?
However... if the definition began decades ago with the old IBM PC... and it grew to what we consider a PC today.... couldn't the definition of a PC also grow to include what an iPad is today?
you need a computer to make the website you visit... to design the magazine you read.... to code the APP you use... to render the movies you rent... if it was not for an actual computer you would do nothing with an ipad.
only way you think an ipad is in the same as a MAC is if you make nothing - it is an insult to lump a MAC running OSX with the mickey mouse iOS and a toy like an iPad.
you need a computer to make the website you visit... to design the magazine you read.... to code the APP you use... to render the movies you rent... if it was not for an actual computer you would do nothing with an ipad.
You've summed up what you just said quite nicely already:
nonsense!...
only way you think an ipad is in the same as a MAC is if you make nothing - it is an insult to lump a MAC running OSX with the mickey mouse iOS and a toy like an iPad.
I'm gonna ask the other mods if they agree that 'iPad is a toy' and 'iOS isn't a real man's phone OS' infraction-worthy. Anything else I'm forgetting to ask about while I'm at it?
Ah well, tablet, laptop, netbook, desktop are all form factors of a "personal computer". I would go as far to say that an iPod with iOS is also a form factor of a 'personal computer' (slightly more limited than a netbook in certain respects, but you can still do email. calendaring, browsing, movie editing, etc. with it). Anything you can install applications on and can be used personally is a 'personal computer'. A smartphone is a 'personal computer' with the added ability ('applications') to make voice calls and send/receive SMS (making a separate phone (dedicated voice/SMS machine) not strictly necessary and making a camera (dedicated picture/video machine) not strictly necessary.
What the original PC did (amongst others) was turning text typing on paper from a dedicated machine (typewriter) into an application on 'generic' 'personal computer' hardware
What the smartphone does is turing voice calls, texting and such into applications on 'generic' 'personal computer' hardware
What the smartphone/iPod does is turning pictures/video into applications on 'generic' 'personal computer' hardware
That's the nice thing about 'unimedia' (bits). Anything operating in bitland can become an application. What then happens is that there are various form factors which support certain applications better. E.g. CAD modeling on a smartphone: not feasible. Texting your activities wherever you go on a big 27" desktop: not practical. Etc.
Why are 4 & 6 irrelevant? That's the only things I need my desktop for: ilife, itunes and pixelmator. And development but that's not normal.
7 is very useful if you share the device. I have 2 ipads and 3 kids plus the wife and I.
It's simple. If you think a CD/DVD drive is a requirement then that excludes all PCs prior to this inclusion, it excludes ultra-slim notebooks like Ultrabooks and the MBA, it excludes the RMBP, it excludes all SFF notebooks like netbooks, it excludes servers like the Mac mini et al., and it excludes all PCs prior to the inclusion of optical drives.
If you require Aperture and FCP you then exclude all Windows and Linux-based PCs. Does it make a Mac a non-PC if they have no intention of running these apps or their Macs can't run these apps?
We can say this is what defines a PC but it's all arbitrary definitions that will slide from person to person and over time. Remember that the first personal computers didn't even have any internal storage.
Comments
PCs are PCs and tablets are tablets.
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU
PCs are PCs and tablets are tablets.
Apparently not, as that's not what the chart says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Apparently not, as that's not what the chart says.
heres a different chart
Apple, Saumsung, Sony, Toshiba and etc=others
And if the iPad were a PC. these numbers would be relevant.
It's not, so they aren't. I notice that the same people who poo poo'ed Netbooks as not being real PC's just a few years ago are largely behind this move to mainstream the iPad as a computing device, and not a glorified iPod Touch with a larger screen, interestingly enough.
Are those from Samuel Johnson's Tautological Dictionary? ????
You lost me there. Are you saying it should or shouldn't be labeled a "PC" by every consumer, OEM and analyst?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I think that's a valid argument for how the iPad has effected the PC market and how the iPad fits into the consumer electronic market as a whole, but for a standard classification I just see the iPad being called a "PC" despite how it is, by pedant definition a personal computer.
I wonder where the Surface and other Win8 devices are going to fit it in. I can see people now saying how Win8 is a "real" OS despite pretty much the same limitations and control for Win8 on ARM-based systems.
Here's an interesting test you can perform yourself:
Given:
The WART will ship with a pre-release version of Office 2013 (not all apps) -- presumably October 2012
The WIPT will ship with a full release of Office 2013 -- presumably 1Q 2013
The top levels of Office 2013 have been rewritten for touch, but lower levels are unchanged and barely usable
Office 2013 apps are pretty much what you have now with features added
iWork on the Mac is a low cost alternative to Office for many users (not as robust as MS Office)
iWork on iPad was completely rewritten for touch and some features from thr Mac version were removed
So here's the interesting test/exercise... to see how well a basic office app, Word Processing, performs:
the touch version on a touch device -- iPad
the non-touch (desktop) version on a touch device -- iPad
Get the SplashTop Streamer app for the Mac and the xDisplay app for the iPad and install them. This allows you to mirror the Mac display on the iPad
start both apps
launch Pages on the Mac
launch Pages on the iPad
set both to share the the same document through iCloud
Now any changes you make to the document from the Mac or the iPad will be reflected on the other device... pretty neat, but with a few rough spots.
Here's the test:
With xDisplay on the iPad you can run the desktop version of Pages (running on the Mac) on the iPad -- then switch to the touch version of Pages running on the iPad.
This gives you a pretty good feel for what Apple did to make Pages work acceptable on the iPad -- and what features they dropped to simplify the iPad version and the UI.
It also gives you an idea how useful Pages would be on the iPad if they had just ported the desktop version to the iPad -- retaining the same layout and UI.
I think you would agree that the desktop version of Pages is not very useful on a touch device -- the iPad.
Now, consider, that Pages is nowhere as feature-rich, complex, busy UI as MS Word. Yet, MS plans to bring Office with little change (some cosmetic and high-level UI changes) to the WART and the WIPT.
I suggest to you that Word and Office will be pretty much unusable on the WART.
I suggest that Word and Office will be marginally usable on the WIPT -- only when the WIPT is used with a kb & trackpad -- used as a laptop.
I suggest that the going to a lobotomized "desktop" on the WART to effectively use Word/Office will only complicates the situation.
I suggest that going through Metro to get to Word/Office on the WIPT will only complicate the situation.
In summary, I don't believe that WART will be successful, at all, and that WIPT won't be successful as a tablet.
Why bother?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash907
I notice that the same people who poo poo'ed Netbooks as not being real PC's just a few years ago are largely behind this move to mainstream the iPad as a computing device, and not a glorified iPod Touch with a larger screen, interestingly enough.
It would seem that the earlier assumptions of the iPad's capability were wrong. Perhaps it was the tight integration of software to the hardware that threw the early critics. In the PC era throwing massive RAM and multi-core power-hungry hardware at a problem was the way to solve problems created by sloppy software. It was easy to believe the iPad couldn't do complex tasks because the specs weren't in line with the PC specs.
Apple has proved that hardware specs don't tell the whole story when it comes to tightly integrated hardware running highly optimized software. Results rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
It would seem that the earlier assumptions of the iPad's capability were wrong. Perhaps it was the tight integration of software to the hardware that threw the early critics. In the PC era throwing massive RAM and multi-core power-hungry hardware at a problem was the way to solve problems created by sloppy software. It was easy to believe the iPad couldn't do complex tasks because the specs weren't in line with the PC specs.
Apple has proved that hardware specs don't tell the whole story when it comes to tightly integrated hardware running highly optimized software. Results rule.
I would not go so far as to say all desktop software was sloppy, unless you want to throw OS X and all of Apple's professional apps in that category as well. The iPad is different than a desktop in many ways. It is reasonably good at some things and terrible at others. The major limitations with iPad in my view are - not a very precise pointing device and lack of a file system, along with fairly awkward multitasking system. On the plus side it has good portability and inexpensive price. The desktop has many advantages but the main disadvantages are that it is not at all portable and is also more expensive.
The size and system requirements of applications cannot be summed up as sloppy on the desktop and optimized on the iPad because they are two different environments. If I lived in a large house with big rooms I have the option of buying a pool table and inviting 20 people over for dinner. If I lived in a studio apartment, well... you get the idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSquirrel
As soon as Surface comes out everyone will report tablets and PCs together.
Yeah, but Surface sales volume will be so low that they will be reported as "others".
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB
Dig deeply enough, and you'll discover that the definition of "PC" ends up being "the box that does precisely and only what I've been doing with it for the past 20 years."
Mention the myriad of things an iPad does that the old-school PC doesn't, and the cricket-chirping is deafening.
Sorry, but the ability write code and create humungous spreadsheets is FAR from the full definition of a PC.
Have a couple of questions for ya
How do you set up your new wireless router (out of the box) with an iPad?
How do update the maps on your GPS with an iPad?
How do you update the firmware on your camera with an iPad?
How do you rip your CD/DVD collection with an iPad?
How do you do colour management on your printer with an iPad?
How do you run Final Cut Pro or Aperture on an iPad?
How do you set up seperate user accounts on an iPad?
Cricket chirping...
1) Doable.
2) Doable.
3) Doable.
4) Irrelevant.
5) Doable.
6) No applicable.
7) Funny how the more personal a computer is the less of a personal computer it gets labeled as.
The "PC" isn't defined by your specific list of desired tasks. It's not a checklist. It's defined by the marketplace. When a significant number of people start purchasing a device in lieu of an existing type of device, well, the definition of that existing device has changed, mostly because the general public's overall needs are now being covered by the device.
Note that the original IBM PC couldn't do any of the things on your list, but people still consider it a PC. Same with the original Apple II and the first Mac.
The definition is fluid and moves with the times.
Unlike you.
In addition to responses listed above refuting your points, I will point out that there are video editing and image editing apps. The definition of a PC definitely isn't tied to one specific branded application (like Final Cut Pro). Saying that "iPad has iMovie or Avid Studio" is sufficient to refute point #6.
I'll also point out that many -- if not most -- routers have featured a browser-based admin interface over the past ten years. You connect to the router via WiFi, enter the admin login and password (per the user manual) and begin configuration.
But keep pumping out nonsensical, poorly reasoned blathering. It fits in well with much of the other commentary here at AppleInsider.
The definition of a PC was created in the 1980s.... in a time when NONE of that stuff even existed.
Was the IBM PC 5150 not a PC because CD drives weren't invented yet?
However... if the definition began decades ago with the old IBM PC... and it grew to what we consider a PC today.... couldn't the definition of a PC also grow to include what an iPad is today?
nonsense!...
you need a computer to make the website you visit... to design the magazine you read.... to code the APP you use... to render the movies you rent... if it was not for an actual computer you would do nothing with an ipad.
only way you think an ipad is in the same as a MAC is if you make nothing - it is an insult to lump a MAC running OSX with the mickey mouse iOS and a toy like an iPad.
Even Apple keeps them apart.
Originally Posted by agramonte
you need a computer to make the website you visit... to design the magazine you read.... to code the APP you use... to render the movies you rent... if it was not for an actual computer you would do nothing with an ipad.
You've summed up what you just said quite nicely already:
nonsense!...
only way you think an ipad is in the same as a MAC is if you make nothing - it is an insult to lump a MAC running OSX with the mickey mouse iOS and a toy like an iPad.
I'm gonna ask the other mods if they agree that 'iPad is a toy' and 'iOS isn't a real man's phone OS' infraction-worthy. Anything else I'm forgetting to ask about while I'm at it?
Quote:
PCs are PCs and Tablets are Tablets
Ah well, tablet, laptop, netbook, desktop are all form factors of a "personal computer". I would go as far to say that an iPod with iOS is also a form factor of a 'personal computer' (slightly more limited than a netbook in certain respects, but you can still do email. calendaring, browsing, movie editing, etc. with it). Anything you can install applications on and can be used personally is a 'personal computer'. A smartphone is a 'personal computer' with the added ability ('applications') to make voice calls and send/receive SMS (making a separate phone (dedicated voice/SMS machine) not strictly necessary and making a camera (dedicated picture/video machine) not strictly necessary.
What the original PC did (amongst others) was turning text typing on paper from a dedicated machine (typewriter) into an application on 'generic' 'personal computer' hardware
What the smartphone does is turing voice calls, texting and such into applications on 'generic' 'personal computer' hardware
What the smartphone/iPod does is turning pictures/video into applications on 'generic' 'personal computer' hardware
That's the nice thing about 'unimedia' (bits). Anything operating in bitland can become an application. What then happens is that there are various form factors which support certain applications better. E.g. CAD modeling on a smartphone: not feasible. Texting your activities wherever you go on a big 27" desktop: not practical. Etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) Doable.
2) Doable.
3) Doable.
4) Irrelevant.
5) Doable.
6) No applicable.
7) Funny how the more personal a computer is the less of a personal computer it gets labeled as.
Why are 4 & 6 irrelevant? That's the only things I need my desktop for: ilife, itunes and pixelmator. And development but that's not normal.
7 is very useful if you share the device. I have 2 ipads and 3 kids plus the wife and I.
It's simple. If you think a CD/DVD drive is a requirement then that excludes all PCs prior to this inclusion, it excludes ultra-slim notebooks like Ultrabooks and the MBA, it excludes the RMBP, it excludes all SFF notebooks like netbooks, it excludes servers like the Mac mini et al., and it excludes all PCs prior to the inclusion of optical drives.
If you require Aperture and FCP you then exclude all Windows and Linux-based PCs. Does it make a Mac a non-PC if they have no intention of running these apps or their Macs can't run these apps?
We can say this is what defines a PC but it's all arbitrary definitions that will slide from person to person and over time. Remember that the first personal computers didn't even have any internal storage.