It baffles me why people think that every place has WiFi. Sure, not all iPad's need 3G/4G if the devices are only ever used at home (or at work), that doesn't help a whole lot in the while on foot, car, train, ferry, cruise ship or airplane.
It really depends on what people use it for. An iPad mini or iPod Touch with only 3G/4G is likely targeting the music/book segment. But as a messaging/blogging/news capture tool, without the 3G/4G radio, this is a failure. .
When you become emperor of the world, you get to make the rules. Until then, you don't get to dictate what everyone else uses.
For me, the extra money for 3G on my iPad would be wasted (not to mention the extra data plan). I always have my iPhone 4S with me and if I'm ever away from WiFi and need to do something on my iPad that requires an Internet connection, I'll just tether it (my data plan allows tethering).
I never said they should sell it at 25%. I said that based on historic numbers, they COULD if they wished. Furthermore, I said that the margin would be 25% if they lowered the price to $200. There's absolutely nothing in anything I said or any published information that says that the CURRENT 3GS margin is 25% - which is what you claimed in post #56.
Besides, it's irrelevant. You're the one who claimed that the link I provided was talking about the 4S. Since it has a reference to 2009, it obviously wasn't.
As for the chart, click on the link I provided above. Look for the table marked exhibit 1. http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/03/02/what-doth-it-profit-an-iphone/
I really don't think you should be attempting to discuss finances when you can't even follow a simple hyperlink and obviously would rather pull numbers out of your rear than use realistic numbers.
Where did i claim you said that? i was just using your example of 25%, I knew it was just a number you picked out of the blue and i used it as well. You are correct, at the time of the article they would've been referring to the 3GS, I read on another site that it was the iPhone 4 so i thought there was a correlation, but I highly doubt that the current 3GS is sold at a 60% profit margin, anyway this is all for naught because I doubt Apple will do what the article suggests.
What features and functions do you believe Apple can add at this point? Despite the numerous improvements in the pipeline for potential iPhone components next year I just don't see a significant number of innovative, revolutionary features to be added at this time. That isn't to say that I don't see valuable potential features, I just don't see any marquee features to be added in the future to iOS at least not for the average user. I would like to see Automator for iOS, Download Manager, more functionality for Siri, etc. though.
It is possible to reach $130 in parts cost, but I doubt they will sell it for $200. They most probably would start at $299 or at the lowest $249 giving them a much higher margin.
They would probably do this with a phone that looked much like a 3gs (glass on only one side, plastic back) but with the A5 (32nm) and a 5mp camera. They might add a front facing camera if budget allows but it probably would not be able to.
Yes, I think the 3GS will become a "model" - with a new chip, maybe the A5, and higher RAM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
I never said they should sell it at 25%. I said that based on historic numbers, they COULD if they wished. Furthermore, I said that the margin would be 25% if they lowered the price to $200. There's absolutely nothing in anything I said or any published information that says that the CURRENT 3GS margin is 25% - which is what you claimed in post #56.
Besides, it's irrelevant. You're the one who claimed that the link I provided was talking about the 4S. Since it has a reference to 2009, it obviously wasn't.
As for the chart, click on the link I provided above. Look for the table marked exhibit 1.
I really don't think you should be attempting to discuss finances when you can't even follow a simple hyperlink and obviously would rather pull numbers out of your rear than use realistic numbers.
Yes, and Apple are predicting a fairly large fall in margins this quarter which has to be affected by new models, and since the new models are only one month of the quarter the prices must drop substantially. How much of that is the new iPad?
Where did i claim you said that? i was just using your example of 25%, I knew it was just a number you picked out of the blue and i used it as well. You are correct, at the time of the article they would've been referring to the 3GS, I read on another site that it was the iPhone 4 so i thought there was a correlation, but I highly doubt that the current 3GS is sold at a 60% profit margin, anyway this is all for naught because I doubt Apple will do what the article suggests.
Please try to keep up.
You stated that the 3GS currently costs $375 and Apple would have to take $175 out of the manufacturing cost to get it down to $200.
I explained that you are wrong. The average margin for Apple's iPhone's is close to 60% according to the link I provided. If that applies to the 3GS, then the manufacturing cost would be $150. At a cost of $150, they would have 25% in margin if they sold it at $200. It wasn't a number I picked out of the blue - I explained exactly how I got it and you were never able to refute it.
Then, I showed you exactly how much Apple would have to reduce the manufacturing cost ($50) in order to get their margins up to 50% if they want to sell for $200.
You really should quit. You obviously don't know what you're talking about and are simply making things up as you go along.
There is a big market for a "messaging" Apple phone. No data plan required. The carriers here in the U.S. are colluding (I'm looking at you, AT&T and Verizon !!) to raise prices via these ridiculous "shared data" plans. Have you seen their current offerings of messaging phones? A bunch of crappy phones. The selection used to be better. The carriers want everyone, including kids on family plans, to move to smartphones, so they can increase what each family pays per month. And, they have increased their upgrade fees substantially to discourage people from upgrading frequently. They are also making a lot of noise about how much they would like to get rid of subsidies.
I think that's the opposite of what he's asking for. He wants to be able to buy an Apple phone with no data plan. That is, a device that you can use to make phone calls, but that doesn't need to access data from the Internet.
I don't believe that there's any chance that Apple will make a "phone only" product. If all you want to do is make calls, there's no reason for Apple's ease of use advantage. I think the real issue is one with the carriers. Many people could probably get by without a data plan if it weren't required. They could use their phone as a phone when they're away from WiFi and do all their data downloading only when they're in a WiFi zone. For those people, simple phone service without a data plan would be fine - but most (if not all) carriers require you to sign up for a data plan if you have an iPhone.
For example, on Straight Talk, you get unlimited everything for $45. For $30, you get 1000 phone minutes and 1000 text messages as well as 30 MB of data. I don't know if Straight Talk will let you use the cheaper plan for iPhones, but most carriers will not.
In short, it's a carrier issue, not an Apple issue.
"The unsubsidized full retail price of a 3GS is $375. I doubt they'll be able to shave off $175 in production costs."
You will no doubt find the same Chinese contractors contracted to make more modern phones for $50 a pop.(Chipset $5, battery $1, screen $10, case $1. etc etc). Even the very latest quad core chipsets cost less than $25.
Really? Then please explain how it is that the chart in the article I provided estimated a 57.8% gross margin in 2009 - which was before the iPhone 4 was even introduced? ...
Those iPhones were selling for more than $375 back then.
Those iPhones were selling for more than $375 back then.
And components cost a lot more back then, too.
Regardless:
1. Apple's AVERAGE iPhone margin has been around 60% for years, so one can assume that they wouldn't continue to sell the 3GS unless the margin is pretty decent.
2. It doesn't matter what the margin is - Dasanman claimed that Apple would have to shave $175 off the production costs to get a $375 phone down to $200. That's only true if they were selling the phone at cost. If they were making any margin at all, his statement is wrong.
I wasn't arguing for any particular numbers - I was simply pointing out that he didn't have any idea how margins or business economics worked. I presented numbers which I believe are reasonable, but the correctness of my argument does not rely on the details of the numbers. He was still wrong even if Apple's 3GS margins were only 20% (but they're not - Apple wouldn't continue to sell an old, outdated phone unless the margins were pretty good).
Apple will make a profit... if they cut prices.. they cut costs by a proportional amount.
The unsubsidized full retail price of a 3GS is $375. I doubt they'll be able to shave off $175 in production costs.
@dasanman69 -- What's your point? Why does Apple need to shave $175 from the production costs of the 3GS? As jragosta pointed out, you replied to a comment about "proportional" profit margins from TheOtherGeoff with a statement about absolute production cost. Are you saying that Apple needs to net a fixed dollar amount per phone (as opposed to a fixed margin)? I'm guessing you were writing too quickly, so maybe you could clarify your point about profits?
If and when Apple releases the 3GS. It will surely have a lot of buyers.
What i think is, it has advantages for Apple itself.
I'd like to state a few reasons here.
1. It gives a lot of flexibilty, which is a good choice.
2. In my part of the world, not many people have a liking and appreciation for an Apple device. So this product can easily make a good impression to them since it costs cheap.
3. Again, in my part of the world, no cell phone comes tied to any operators / carriers. So an unsubsidized phone is the only way we get to use iPhones.
4. Even with unchanged specs, the 3GS will still kicka**. Here, 90% of the ''cell phone using population'' doesn't use 3G. And by any standards, the 3GS will still be an high-end device here.
PS. : Most of my views are biased in favor of India and its people's lifestyle. Incase Apple really does it and launches it here too.. it is going to sell well. Period.
Comments
When you become emperor of the world, you get to make the rules. Until then, you don't get to dictate what everyone else uses.
For me, the extra money for 3G on my iPad would be wasted (not to mention the extra data plan). I always have my iPhone 4S with me and if I'm ever away from WiFi and need to do something on my iPad that requires an Internet connection, I'll just tether it (my data plan allows tethering).
Not everyone has the same needs as you.
Where did i claim you said that? i was just using your example of 25%, I knew it was just a number you picked out of the blue and i used it as well. You are correct, at the time of the article they would've been referring to the 3GS, I read on another site that it was the iPhone 4 so i thought there was a correlation, but I highly doubt that the current 3GS is sold at a 60% profit margin, anyway this is all for naught because I doubt Apple will do what the article suggests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
They've only just begun.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }What features and functions do you believe Apple can add at this point? Despite the numerous improvements in the pipeline for potential iPhone components next year I just don't see a significant number of innovative, revolutionary features to be added at this time. That isn't to say that I don't see valuable potential features, I just don't see any marquee features to be added in the future to iOS at least not for the average user. I would like to see Automator for iOS, Download Manager, more functionality for Siri, etc. though.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeltsBear
It is possible to reach $130 in parts cost, but I doubt they will sell it for $200. They most probably would start at $299 or at the lowest $249 giving them a much higher margin.
They would probably do this with a phone that looked much like a 3gs (glass on only one side, plastic back) but with the A5 (32nm) and a 5mp camera. They might add a front facing camera if budget allows but it probably would not be able to.
Yes, I think the 3GS will become a "model" - with a new chip, maybe the A5, and higher RAM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
I never said they should sell it at 25%. I said that based on historic numbers, they COULD if they wished. Furthermore, I said that the margin would be 25% if they lowered the price to $200. There's absolutely nothing in anything I said or any published information that says that the CURRENT 3GS margin is 25% - which is what you claimed in post #56.
Besides, it's irrelevant. You're the one who claimed that the link I provided was talking about the 4S. Since it has a reference to 2009, it obviously wasn't.
As for the chart, click on the link I provided above. Look for the table marked exhibit 1.
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/03/02/what-doth-it-profit-an-iphone/
I really don't think you should be attempting to discuss finances when you can't even follow a simple hyperlink and obviously would rather pull numbers out of your rear than use realistic numbers.
Yes, and Apple are predicting a fairly large fall in margins this quarter which has to be affected by new models, and since the new models are only one month of the quarter the prices must drop substantially. How much of that is the new iPad?
Please try to keep up.
You stated that the 3GS currently costs $375 and Apple would have to take $175 out of the manufacturing cost to get it down to $200.
I explained that you are wrong. The average margin for Apple's iPhone's is close to 60% according to the link I provided. If that applies to the 3GS, then the manufacturing cost would be $150. At a cost of $150, they would have 25% in margin if they sold it at $200. It wasn't a number I picked out of the blue - I explained exactly how I got it and you were never able to refute it.
Then, I showed you exactly how much Apple would have to reduce the manufacturing cost ($50) in order to get their margins up to 50% if they want to sell for $200.
You really should quit. You obviously don't know what you're talking about and are simply making things up as you go along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleGreen
There is a big market for a "messaging" Apple phone. No data plan required. The carriers here in the U.S. are colluding (I'm looking at you, AT&T and Verizon !!) to raise prices via these ridiculous "shared data" plans. Have you seen their current offerings of messaging phones? A bunch of crappy phones. The selection used to be better. The carriers want everyone, including kids on family plans, to move to smartphones, so they can increase what each family pays per month. And, they have increased their upgrade fees substantially to discourage people from upgrading frequently. They are also making a lot of noise about how much they would like to get rid of subsidies.
iPod Touch, perhaps?
I think that's the opposite of what he's asking for. He wants to be able to buy an Apple phone with no data plan. That is, a device that you can use to make phone calls, but that doesn't need to access data from the Internet.
I don't believe that there's any chance that Apple will make a "phone only" product. If all you want to do is make calls, there's no reason for Apple's ease of use advantage. I think the real issue is one with the carriers. Many people could probably get by without a data plan if it weren't required. They could use their phone as a phone when they're away from WiFi and do all their data downloading only when they're in a WiFi zone. For those people, simple phone service without a data plan would be fine - but most (if not all) carriers require you to sign up for a data plan if you have an iPhone.
For example, on Straight Talk, you get unlimited everything for $45. For $30, you get 1000 phone minutes and 1000 text messages as well as 30 MB of data. I don't know if Straight Talk will let you use the cheaper plan for iPhones, but most carriers will not.
In short, it's a carrier issue, not an Apple issue.
You will no doubt find the same Chinese contractors contracted to make more modern phones for $50 a pop.(Chipset $5, battery $1, screen $10, case $1. etc etc). Even the very latest quad core chipsets cost less than $25.
(This post appeared in the wrong place, sorry.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Really? Then please explain how it is that the chart in the article I provided estimated a 57.8% gross margin in 2009 - which was before the iPhone 4 was even introduced? ...
Those iPhones were selling for more than $375 back then.
And components cost a lot more back then, too.
Regardless:
1. Apple's AVERAGE iPhone margin has been around 60% for years, so one can assume that they wouldn't continue to sell the 3GS unless the margin is pretty decent.
2. It doesn't matter what the margin is - Dasanman claimed that Apple would have to shave $175 off the production costs to get a $375 phone down to $200. That's only true if they were selling the phone at cost. If they were making any margin at all, his statement is wrong.
I wasn't arguing for any particular numbers - I was simply pointing out that he didn't have any idea how margins or business economics worked. I presented numbers which I believe are reasonable, but the correctness of my argument does not rely on the details of the numbers. He was still wrong even if Apple's 3GS margins were only 20% (but they're not - Apple wouldn't continue to sell an old, outdated phone unless the margins were pretty good).
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff
Apple will make a profit... if they cut prices.. they cut costs by a proportional amount.
The unsubsidized full retail price of a 3GS is $375. I doubt they'll be able to shave off $175 in production costs.
@dasanman69 -- What's your point? Why does Apple need to shave $175 from the production costs of the 3GS? As jragosta pointed out, you replied to a comment about "proportional" profit margins from TheOtherGeoff with a statement about absolute production cost. Are you saying that Apple needs to net a fixed dollar amount per phone (as opposed to a fixed margin)? I'm guessing you were writing too quickly, so maybe you could clarify your point about profits?
Its been cancelled.
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem
Good news. Its been cancelled.
The rumored product of which we had no proof is now being cancelled with no proof.
I'm unsure how to feel about this, but there's no proof that I am.
If and when Apple releases the 3GS. It will surely have a lot of buyers.
What i think is, it has advantages for Apple itself.
I'd like to state a few reasons here.
1. It gives a lot of flexibilty, which is a good choice.
2. In my part of the world, not many people have a liking and appreciation for an Apple device. So this product can easily make a good impression to them since it costs cheap.
3. Again, in my part of the world, no cell phone comes tied to any operators / carriers. So an unsubsidized phone is the only way we get to use iPhones.
4. Even with unchanged specs, the 3GS will still kicka**. Here, 90% of the ''cell phone using population'' doesn't use 3G. And by any standards, the 3GS will still be an high-end device here.
PS. : Most of my views are biased in favor of India and its people's lifestyle. Incase Apple really does it and launches it here too.. it is going to sell well. Period.