You can buy one at $199. What you can't buy is one of the new ones at $199.
What do you want, do you want them to go back to an inferior display quality for the Touch so it's cheaper?
I can buy a 2 year old one for $199? And it launched in 2010 at $229? What a deal!
No- I wanted the new one at $199. The A6, LTE, 1gb ram, 16gb, 8mp camera, bigger battery, amongst several other things could shave tons of cost over the estimated $168 it costs to make a new iPhone.
Give me the 4" retina screen, and 8gb memory (or 16- really, the cost difference wouldn't matter) for $199. Or- scrap the touch altogether and give me a $299 iPad mini that has the exact same guts, but is a 7.85" screen- doesn't even have to be retina. Either/or is fine.
$299 is crazy for a touch. I believe it will sell terribly at that price. The mini would have had slightly less margins (if no retina display)- but it would have sold tenfold over what the overpriced touch will- there is no question. Now- they wont make a mini for a while and likely won't sell many touches at all. The touch won't hurt apple- but it won't help. The mini would have helped a lot.
Then what about charcoal and a cave wall?
Kids want to live and learn in the world they're born into, not the one their grandparents grew up in. Sheesh. Anyway, pencil and paper writing should be taught as art forms, since they're no longer needed for communication.
I'll know who to blame when your children can't fill out a job application.
If that is your basis for your reasoning you're failing right from the start.
Why? Because R&D isn't included? Ok. Why else?
And do you not agree or have any retort to the rest of my post? Are you claiming you believe the new touch at $299 would outsell a non retina iPad mini with the same guts as the new iPod touch? Or do you think the mini sales would so dwarf the touch it wouldn't be funny?
Because in a nutshell, that's what happened. They made a touch that will sell minimally, instead of a mini that would have sold (likely) like hotcakes.
There's a pretty simple and Apple-ish solution to the entire problem: remove the main camera, give the iPad Mini the same CPU (but not RAM) as the iTouch 5 and same resolution as the iPad 2 and presto, a $250 iPad aiming at the portable gaming and reading tablet markets that is unlikely to cannibalize iTouch sales!
I'll know who to blame when your children can't fill out a job application.
That would be my great-grandchildren, thank you very much—if I had any kids to begin with.
When I was in elementary school, they were trying to teach us "penmanship" with ink bottles, steel pen points stuck in a wooden handle, cheap paper "composition books" that dragged on the pen tip in an irritating way with every upstroke. There were inkwells in the scarred maple school desks with ink stains all around them.
Meanwhile, we knew there were ballpoint pens and typewriters in the real world, but did those antiquarian educators care about that, enough to teach us with those tools? Rather than torture us with 30-year-old technology?
Like I said, teach writing as an art form, including filling out applications. Also teach touch typing on an iPad or whatever is current for communication. Engage the kids, don't torture them.
I was all on board with an iPad mini and thought it would be a great seller and do amazing.
Then the iPod touch came out- $100 more than it should have been. That kills the iPad mini- period.
A4? Faulty A5s? Are you all delusional? Yeah- let's have Apple use 2-3 year old hardware and price it $100 MORE than the competition. I'm a "user experience" vs "specs" (android) guy as much as the next- but that would be absolutely ridiculous and apple would lose all credibility.
The iPad mini needed to be the exact specs of the iPod touch. And at the iPod touch price (could have been 8gb). That would have been $100 over the competition- but the quality build, Retina display, and iOS would have made it easily worth it.
As it stands- if the ipad mini comes out- you won't see it until late 2013- when the currnt iPod touch drops to $199 and they release the iPad mini @ $299.
The bottom line is the touch is ridiculously overpriced for what you get. I would've bought one at $199 (8gb is fine). But $299 is crazy- and I believe the sales will show it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
I can buy a 2 year old one for $199? And it launched in 2010 at $229? What a deal!
No- I wanted the new one at $199. The A6, LTE, 1gb ram, 16gb, 8mp camera, bigger battery, amongst several other things could shave tons of cost over the estimated $168 it costs to make a new iPhone.
Give me the 4" retina screen, and 8gb memory (or 16- really, the cost difference wouldn't matter) for $199. Or- scrap the touch altogether and give me a $299 iPad mini that has the exact same guts, but is a 7.85" screen- doesn't even have to be retina. Either/or is fine.
$299 is crazy for a touch. I believe it will sell terribly at that price. The mini would have had slightly less margins (if no retina display)- but it would have sold tenfold over what the overpriced touch will- there is no question. Now- they wont make a mini for a while and likely won't sell many touches at all. The touch won't hurt apple- but it won't help. The mini would have helped a lot.
Just one guys opinion.
Completely agree.
When the new Touch was announced Apple pretty much put a nail in the "iPad Mini" coffin.
Honestly all the iPods last week released are overpriced.
Probably promulgated by people who see a 4G iPad "mini" as killing the ever growing Galaxy S's. A cheap data-only plan and a reasonably priced pad that is pocketable (with a big pocket).
Bu bye Galaxy that's set to clear 5.5 inches (?) on it's next bloat.
Probably promulgated by people who see a 4G iPad "mini" as killing the ever growing Galaxy S's. A cheap data-only plan and a reasonably priced pad that is pocketable (with a big pocket).
Bu bye Galaxy that's set to clear 5.5 inches (?) on it's next bloat.
A cellular radio will jack up the price considerably. That's why 7" tablets are wifi only.
I was all on board with an iPad mini and thought it would be a great seller and do amazing.
Then the iPod touch came out- $100 more than it should have been. That kills the iPad mini- period.
A4? Faulty A5s? Are you all delusional? Yeah- let's have Apple use 2-3 year old hardware and price it $100 MORE than the competition. I'm a "user experience" vs "specs" (android) guy as much as the next- but that would be absolutely ridiculous and apple would lose all credibility.
The iPad mini needed to be the exact specs of the iPod touch. And at the iPod touch price (could have been 8gb). That would have been $100 over the competition- but the quality build, Retina display, and iOS would have made it easily worth it.
As it stands- if the ipad mini comes out- you won't see it until late 2013- when the currnt iPod touch drops to $199 and they release the iPad mini @ $299.
The bottom line is the touch is ridiculously overpriced for what you get. I would've bought one at $199 (8gb is fine). But $299 is crazy- and I believe the sales will show it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
I can buy a 2 year old one for $199? And it launched in 2010 at $229? What a deal!
No- I wanted the new one at $199. The A6, LTE, 1gb ram, 16gb, 8mp camera, bigger battery, amongst several other things could shave tons of cost over the estimated $168 it costs to make a new iPhone.
Give me the 4" retina screen, and 8gb memory (or 16- really, the cost difference wouldn't matter) for $199. Or- scrap the touch altogether and give me a $299 iPad mini that has the exact same guts, but is a 7.85" screen- doesn't even have to be retina. Either/or is fine.
$299 is crazy for a touch. I believe it will sell terribly at that price. The mini would have had slightly less margins (if no retina display)- but it would have sold tenfold over what the overpriced touch will- there is no question. Now- they wont make a mini for a while and likely won't sell many touches at all. The touch won't hurt apple- but it won't help. The mini would have helped a lot.
Just one guys opinion.
Completely agree.
When the new Touch was announced Apple pretty much put a nail in the "iPad Mini" coffin.
Honestly all the iPods last week released are overpriced.
I don't agree! The iPod and the iPad (including the iPad Mini) are two (possibly three) different target markets. I see no problem with the iPod pricing as Apple has little competition in the pmp market.
The full-size tablet is dominated by the iPad at several price points... however Apple has no entry in the "mini" tablet market. Here, IMO, Apple needs to have a full-featured (by Apple standards) price-compteitive (within $50 of others) offering -- even if it has to sacrifice gross margin to enter the market.
Apple will place a stake in the ground saying "this is what a mini tablet is, and this is the price".
Then the tablet buyer will have 3 choices:
an inferior [competitive] mini tablet at a slightly lower price
a superior Apple iPad Mini tablet at about the same price
a superior Apple iPad (full size) at a higher price (but still unmatched by competition)
In reality, the buyer only has two choices -- the iPad Mini or the [full size] iPad.
Apple has never been afraid to let prices overlap for different categories or when addressing different target markets.
From a "total tablet market" perspective, an iPad Mini with models priced $249-$399 makes perfect sense.
Then, Apple will need to determine if it needs to address the market (if any) for an 11" - 17" tablet.
That would be my great-grandchildren, thank you very much—if I had any kids to begin with.
When I was in elementary school, they were trying to teach us "penmanship" with ink bottles, steel pen points stuck in a wooden handle, cheap paper "composition books" that dragged on the pen tip in an irritating way with every upstroke. There were inkwells in the scarred maple school desks with ink stains all around them.
Meanwhile, we knew there were ballpoint pens and typewriters in the real world, but did those antiquarian educators care about that, enough to teach us with those tools? Rather than torture us with 30-year-old technology?
Like I said, teach writing as an art form, including filling out applications. Also teach touch typing on an iPad or whatever is current for communication. Engage the kids, don't torture them.
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
Hardly. Inability to use a computing device in this day and age would constitute "dumbness".
I'll never have kids, but I would have absolutely wished them to not only know how to write, but write in cursive. In addition to being on the bleeding edge of technologies and operating things that even I would consider "newfangled stuff".
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
Hardly. Inability to use a computing device in this day and age would constitute "dumbness".
I'll never have kids, but I would have absolutely wished them to not only know how to write, but write in cursive. In addition to being on the bleeding edge of technologies and operating things that even I would consider "newfangled stuff".
As a career, being a cutting edge technology expert will probably pay a living wage, but if you want your kids to be financially successful you should hope they become lawyers or politicians.
As a career, being a cutting edge technology expert will probably pay a living wage, but if you want your kids to be financially successful you should hope they become lawyers or politicians.
As a career, being a cutting edge technology expert will probably pay a living wage, but if you want your kids to be financially successful you should hope they become lawyers or politicians.
You forgot moderators.
You can never forget moderators....
...Like the legendary Larry Wilcox -- one of the great moderators of all time!
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
Hardly. Inability to use a computing device in this day and age would constitute "dumbness".
I'll never have kids, but I would have absolutely wished them to not only know how to write, but write in cursive. In addition to being on the bleeding edge of technologies and operating things that even I would consider "newfangled stuff".
As a career, being a cutting edge technology expert will probably pay a living wage, but if you want your kids to be financially successful you should hope they become lawyers or politicians.
The reason iPods are a bad example is because they are VERY expensive for what you get. the Shuffle cost 3x as much as most 2GB music players with even less of a UI than most and the Nano has always costed 2-3x more than it's competition as well, and we see how expensive the new iPod Touch is...
And what's with the "limited user experience" thing? I'm pretty sure everyone expects the iPad Mini to do everything the big iPad can do for half the price. It's not going to be a book reader only. If Apple were to make it, it would probably still be well equipped just with older internals than the other iPads.
The "limited user experience" was just riffing on the famous Jobs line about why Apple wasn't considering a smaller form tablet, which some folks here still take literally, even as we know now he was just playing us. My point is that, regardless of the spin, nobody is expecting a smaller, less expensive, lower res iPad to provide the same or comparable user experience as the top end model, yet it offers something that most definitely fills a niche. When MacVicta says the only scenario that makes any sense is for a high end iPad that's just a smaller size and sells for $399, I say, that's the scenario that doesn't make any sense and won't happen. The "Apple can't sell for less than xxx because they only make high quality products" is forgetting about a huge segment of consumers who do buy Apple, but they look at the lower end.
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
No, I'm saying REALLY learn how to write. Pay attention. I never said teaching writing as an art form should be optional, did I?
Teaching writing as an art would move the subject from drudgery, where it used to be when it was the staple mode of communication, to an accomplishment that one wants to cultivate.
This may be too deep for some here to grasp, but the idea is that iPads for kids need not cripple their writing skills. In fact, apps can be conceived of that would teach writing better than the old pre-electronic methods. Writing IS an art form, always has been, but it's been treated as a joyless discipline. In the electronic age, it has to be taught in context if you want kids to be engaged.
No, I'm saying REALLY learn how to write. Pay attention. I never said teaching writing as an art form should be optional, did I?
Teaching writing as an art would move the subject from drudgery, where it used to be when it was the staple mode of communication, to an accomplishment that one wants to cultivate.
This may be too deep for some here to grasp, but the idea is that iPads for kids need not cripple their writing skills. In fact, apps can be conceived of that would teach writing better than the old pre-electronic methods. Writing IS an art form, always has been, but it's been treated as a joyless discipline. In the electronic age, it has to be taught in context if you want kids to be engaged.
So how would they learn how to write on a iPad? With their fingers? Or are you going to use the dirty S word stylus? I don't think Apple makes one, maybe because they didn't think it'd be a good device to write on. And enlighten me how would you make penmanship enjoyable?
Comments
I can buy a 2 year old one for $199? And it launched in 2010 at $229? What a deal!
No- I wanted the new one at $199. The A6, LTE, 1gb ram, 16gb, 8mp camera, bigger battery, amongst several other things could shave tons of cost over the estimated $168 it costs to make a new iPhone.
Give me the 4" retina screen, and 8gb memory (or 16- really, the cost difference wouldn't matter) for $199. Or- scrap the touch altogether and give me a $299 iPad mini that has the exact same guts, but is a 7.85" screen- doesn't even have to be retina. Either/or is fine.
$299 is crazy for a touch. I believe it will sell terribly at that price. The mini would have had slightly less margins (if no retina display)- but it would have sold tenfold over what the overpriced touch will- there is no question. Now- they wont make a mini for a while and likely won't sell many touches at all. The touch won't hurt apple- but it won't help. The mini would have helped a lot.
Just one guys opinion.
If that is your basis for your reasoning you're failing right from the start.
I'll know who to blame when your children can't fill out a job application.
Why? Because R&D isn't included? Ok. Why else?
And do you not agree or have any retort to the rest of my post? Are you claiming you believe the new touch at $299 would outsell a non retina iPad mini with the same guts as the new iPod touch? Or do you think the mini sales would so dwarf the touch it wouldn't be funny?
Because in a nutshell, that's what happened. They made a touch that will sell minimally, instead of a mini that would have sold (likely) like hotcakes.
That would be my great-grandchildren, thank you very much—if I had any kids to begin with.
When I was in elementary school, they were trying to teach us "penmanship" with ink bottles, steel pen points stuck in a wooden handle, cheap paper "composition books" that dragged on the pen tip in an irritating way with every upstroke. There were inkwells in the scarred maple school desks with ink stains all around them.
Meanwhile, we knew there were ballpoint pens and typewriters in the real world, but did those antiquarian educators care about that, enough to teach us with those tools? Rather than torture us with 30-year-old technology?
Like I said, teach writing as an art form, including filling out applications. Also teach touch typing on an iPad or whatever is current for communication. Engage the kids, don't torture them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
I was all on board with an iPad mini and thought it would be a great seller and do amazing.
Then the iPod touch came out- $100 more than it should have been. That kills the iPad mini- period.
A4? Faulty A5s? Are you all delusional? Yeah- let's have Apple use 2-3 year old hardware and price it $100 MORE than the competition. I'm a "user experience" vs "specs" (android) guy as much as the next- but that would be absolutely ridiculous and apple would lose all credibility.
The iPad mini needed to be the exact specs of the iPod touch. And at the iPod touch price (could have been 8gb). That would have been $100 over the competition- but the quality build, Retina display, and iOS would have made it easily worth it.
As it stands- if the ipad mini comes out- you won't see it until late 2013- when the currnt iPod touch drops to $199 and they release the iPad mini @ $299.
The bottom line is the touch is ridiculously overpriced for what you get. I would've bought one at $199 (8gb is fine). But $299 is crazy- and I believe the sales will show it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
I can buy a 2 year old one for $199? And it launched in 2010 at $229? What a deal!
No- I wanted the new one at $199. The A6, LTE, 1gb ram, 16gb, 8mp camera, bigger battery, amongst several other things could shave tons of cost over the estimated $168 it costs to make a new iPhone.
Give me the 4" retina screen, and 8gb memory (or 16- really, the cost difference wouldn't matter) for $199. Or- scrap the touch altogether and give me a $299 iPad mini that has the exact same guts, but is a 7.85" screen- doesn't even have to be retina. Either/or is fine.
$299 is crazy for a touch. I believe it will sell terribly at that price. The mini would have had slightly less margins (if no retina display)- but it would have sold tenfold over what the overpriced touch will- there is no question. Now- they wont make a mini for a while and likely won't sell many touches at all. The touch won't hurt apple- but it won't help. The mini would have helped a lot.
Just one guys opinion.
Completely agree.
When the new Touch was announced Apple pretty much put a nail in the "iPad Mini" coffin.
Honestly all the iPods last week released are overpriced.
Bu bye Galaxy that's set to clear 5.5 inches (?) on it's next bloat.
A cellular radio will jack up the price considerably. That's why 7" tablets are wifi only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
I was all on board with an iPad mini and thought it would be a great seller and do amazing.
Then the iPod touch came out- $100 more than it should have been. That kills the iPad mini- period.
A4? Faulty A5s? Are you all delusional? Yeah- let's have Apple use 2-3 year old hardware and price it $100 MORE than the competition. I'm a "user experience" vs "specs" (android) guy as much as the next- but that would be absolutely ridiculous and apple would lose all credibility.
The iPad mini needed to be the exact specs of the iPod touch. And at the iPod touch price (could have been 8gb). That would have been $100 over the competition- but the quality build, Retina display, and iOS would have made it easily worth it.
As it stands- if the ipad mini comes out- you won't see it until late 2013- when the currnt iPod touch drops to $199 and they release the iPad mini @ $299.
The bottom line is the touch is ridiculously overpriced for what you get. I would've bought one at $199 (8gb is fine). But $299 is crazy- and I believe the sales will show it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
I can buy a 2 year old one for $199? And it launched in 2010 at $229? What a deal!
No- I wanted the new one at $199. The A6, LTE, 1gb ram, 16gb, 8mp camera, bigger battery, amongst several other things could shave tons of cost over the estimated $168 it costs to make a new iPhone.
Give me the 4" retina screen, and 8gb memory (or 16- really, the cost difference wouldn't matter) for $199. Or- scrap the touch altogether and give me a $299 iPad mini that has the exact same guts, but is a 7.85" screen- doesn't even have to be retina. Either/or is fine.
$299 is crazy for a touch. I believe it will sell terribly at that price. The mini would have had slightly less margins (if no retina display)- but it would have sold tenfold over what the overpriced touch will- there is no question. Now- they wont make a mini for a while and likely won't sell many touches at all. The touch won't hurt apple- but it won't help. The mini would have helped a lot.
Just one guys opinion.
Completely agree.
When the new Touch was announced Apple pretty much put a nail in the "iPad Mini" coffin.
Honestly all the iPods last week released are overpriced.
I don't agree! The iPod and the iPad (including the iPad Mini) are two (possibly three) different target markets. I see no problem with the iPod pricing as Apple has little competition in the pmp market.
The full-size tablet is dominated by the iPad at several price points... however Apple has no entry in the "mini" tablet market. Here, IMO, Apple needs to have a full-featured (by Apple standards) price-compteitive (within $50 of others) offering -- even if it has to sacrifice gross margin to enter the market.
Apple will place a stake in the ground saying "this is what a mini tablet is, and this is the price".
Then the tablet buyer will have 3 choices:
an inferior [competitive] mini tablet at a slightly lower price
a superior Apple iPad Mini tablet at about the same price
a superior Apple iPad (full size) at a higher price (but still unmatched by competition)
In reality, the buyer only has two choices -- the iPad Mini or the [full size] iPad.
Apple has never been afraid to let prices overlap for different categories or when addressing different target markets.
From a "total tablet market" perspective, an iPad Mini with models priced $249-$399 makes perfect sense.
Then, Apple will need to determine if it needs to address the market (if any) for an 11" - 17" tablet.
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
Originally Posted by dasanman69
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
Hardly. Inability to use a computing device in this day and age would constitute "dumbness".
I'll never have kids, but I would have absolutely wished them to not only know how to write, but write in cursive. In addition to being on the bleeding edge of technologies and operating things that even I would consider "newfangled stuff".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Originally Posted by dasanman69
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
Hardly. Inability to use a computing device in this day and age would constitute "dumbness".
I'll never have kids, but I would have absolutely wished them to not only know how to write, but write in cursive. In addition to being on the bleeding edge of technologies and operating things that even I would consider "newfangled stuff".
As a career, being a cutting edge technology expert will probably pay a living wage, but if you want your kids to be financially successful you should hope they become lawyers or politicians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
As a career, being a cutting edge technology expert will probably pay a living wage, but if you want your kids to be financially successful you should hope they become lawyers or politicians.
You forgot moderators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
As a career, being a cutting edge technology expert will probably pay a living wage, but if you want your kids to be financially successful you should hope they become lawyers or politicians.
You forgot moderators.
You can never forget moderators....
...Like the legendary Larry Wilcox -- one of the great moderators of all time!
OT: has Apple released the total number of iP5 preorders for the weekend?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Originally Posted by dasanman69
So don't learn how to write is your take? Offer it as an optional art class. How about math? Just let them use calculators? It's you're thinking that's making our kids dumber
Hardly. Inability to use a computing device in this day and age would constitute "dumbness".
I'll never have kids, but I would have absolutely wished them to not only know how to write, but write in cursive. In addition to being on the bleeding edge of technologies and operating things that even I would consider "newfangled stuff".
As a career, being a cutting edge technology expert will probably pay a living wage, but if you want your kids to be financially successful you should hope they become lawyers or politicians.
Sad, but true... note my sig!
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook
The reason iPods are a bad example is because they are VERY expensive for what you get. the Shuffle cost 3x as much as most 2GB music players with even less of a UI than most and the Nano has always costed 2-3x more than it's competition as well, and we see how expensive the new iPod Touch is...
And what's with the "limited user experience" thing? I'm pretty sure everyone expects the iPad Mini to do everything the big iPad can do for half the price. It's not going to be a book reader only. If Apple were to make it, it would probably still be well equipped just with older internals than the other iPads.
The "limited user experience" was just riffing on the famous Jobs line about why Apple wasn't considering a smaller form tablet, which some folks here still take literally, even as we know now he was just playing us. My point is that, regardless of the spin, nobody is expecting a smaller, less expensive, lower res iPad to provide the same or comparable user experience as the top end model, yet it offers something that most definitely fills a niche. When MacVicta says the only scenario that makes any sense is for a high end iPad that's just a smaller size and sells for $399, I say, that's the scenario that doesn't make any sense and won't happen. The "Apple can't sell for less than xxx because they only make high quality products" is forgetting about a huge segment of consumers who do buy Apple, but they look at the lower end.
No, I'm saying REALLY learn how to write. Pay attention. I never said teaching writing as an art form should be optional, did I?
Teaching writing as an art would move the subject from drudgery, where it used to be when it was the staple mode of communication, to an accomplishment that one wants to cultivate.
This may be too deep for some here to grasp, but the idea is that iPads for kids need not cripple their writing skills. In fact, apps can be conceived of that would teach writing better than the old pre-electronic methods. Writing IS an art form, always has been, but it's been treated as a joyless discipline. In the electronic age, it has to be taught in context if you want kids to be engaged.
So how would they learn how to write on a iPad? With their fingers? Or are you going to use the dirty S word stylus? I don't think Apple makes one, maybe because they didn't think it'd be a good device to write on. And enlighten me how would you make penmanship enjoyable?