I can see a sexist comment like that is why someone has never kissed a woman before and probably never will.
I want people on the team who can do the frigging job to the standards set forth by the people therein and the project at hand. Anyone who is not capable of doing the job in that capacity has no business being there. Anyone who can do it should certainly apply.
If that's actually somehow sexism, then I don't care.
Is there some industry average for the number of women who work in industrial design? I'm guessing it would be quite low, just like with mechanical or software engineering.
I bet they weren't allowed to fly all together on one flight as a risk mitigation strategy. Can you imagine if they did and if that flight had a mishap. Ignoring the human cost, I wonder how big a bite that would take from Apple's market cap.
I want people on the team who can do the frigging job to the standards set forth by the people therein and the project at hand. Anyone who is not capable of doing the job in that capacity has no business being there. Anyone who can do it should certainly apply.
If that's actually somehow sexism, then I don't care.
You should drop this vendetta against me early.
If you have such great standards and know all aspects of Apple's business, then get a job there. Tell them how to run their business.
Yes that's sexism and you should care.
I should drop this vendetta? Are you going to do something to me? You just made a thinly veiled threat to a member. You violated AI's TOS, http://forums.appleinsider.com/a/terms-of-service. I don't think AI would want a moderator behaving like that.
What do you think would happen to your Global Moderator status if offended members flag your post?
I'm sure Steve wanted them kept in the dark to avoid poaching ... but now ... who in their right mind would leave Apple? I guess if one were offered their own department at Google, Samsung or Microsoft ... hopefully they love working with Jony.
Wow, my first thought as well.
But I'm guessing that would be a hard job to leave. By now, they are either trench buddies or family. It would take more than money to poach them.
Some job roles have unequal distributions of gender. There are more women in HR than men, same with elementary teaching, nursing, waiting service, maid service. There are more men in construction, security/bouncing, fire fighting. A company isn't automatically sexist if the numbers aren't close to even.
I find it hard to believe they only have 16 designers. This is a company with 40,000+ employees. Even with the majority of them retail staff, 16 people can't be responsible for all of the industrial design, website design and graphic design for a company with 388 stores worldwide.
Marvin, I understand how different professions have different male to female ratios. I'm not disputing that nor am I blaming anyone for that.
Here's the original post that started it all. While Tallest's successive posts were not as sexist, he hasn't taken ownership (responsibility), for the first one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ochyming
Well done people.
Sad there are few women.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Then women need to really step up their skills at designing if they want to work on the best team on the planet.
Marvin, I understand how different professions have different male to female ratios. I'm not disputing that nor am I blaming anyone for that.
Here's the original post that started it all. While Tallest's successive posts were not as sexist, he hasn't taken ownership (responsibility), for the first one.
Of course I've taken ownership. I said it. It's there. Unedited. I'm not going to change it, and I'm not going to modify it.
I'll say it again. If you want women on the team, then they need to be up to the standards therein. If you want minorities on the team, then they need to be up to the standards therein.
Apparently I'm racist now, too.
He's upset there are few women. That's fine. Apple should not compromise anything to meet an arbitrary quota of women or minorities in their teams to make them "feel diverse". If they can do the job, I want them there. If they can do the job better than the people there and whatever other conditions have been met, they can even supplant the people there.
There is nothing racist and nothing sexist about not hiring someone because they can't do the job, nor not wanting someone there because they can't do the job.
It's easy to underestimate the cost of that photo.
Those employees are high enough level that they probably flew at least business class - $5 K per employee. Add in at least $2 K for housing costs. Then, to travel from SF to London and receive an award - and then back again probably cost them the better part of a week for each employee. At an average cost of $200 K based on $150 K plus benefits (again, we're talking about relatively high level employees, so that number is almost certainly too low), that's $4 K per employee. So you're looking at a minimum of $11 K per employee -or a quarter million dollars for that photo opportunity (probably at least twice that).
But that's not the real cost. Imagine everyone being out of the lab at the same time - causing work to come to a standstill. This exercise cost them 2% (1 week) of the entire annual output of these 18 key people (partly ameliorated by the opportunity for the employees to brainstorm with no time pressures or interruptions). Then, of course, there's the risk of accidents - most companies do not allow that many key employees to be in one place at the same time, particularly in today's terrorism climate.
Obviously, the quarter or half million dollars isn't significant. But the willingness to send the entire team to London is a huge expense and inconvenience and causes loss of productivity so it was clearly perceived as very important.
They really should have moved the event to Apple /wink
He's upset there are few women. That's fine. Apple should not compromise anything to meet an arbitrary quota of women or minorities in their teams to make them "feel diverse". If they can do the job, I want them there. If they can do the job better than the people there and whatever other conditions have been met, they can even supplant the people there.
There is nothing racist and nothing sexist about not hiring someone because they can't do the job, nor not wanting someone there because they can't do the job.
You're missing the point. Someone said it was sad there weren't more women on the team. That's innocent enough of a statement. No one said that Apple should put more women on their team for the sake of having more women.
It was you who made the assumption that women must not have what it takes to be on that team and need to "step up their skills". That assumption is what is sexist. Why do you think they need to step up their skills? Is that the only possible reason there are not more women on the team? Was it necessary to single that out?
It was you who made the assumption that women must not have what it takes…
Never said that. Said I don't want anyone there that can't do the job. If more women don't have the skills to do the job, they shouldn't be there. That does not in any way imply that women cannot have said skills.
Why do you think they need to step up their skills?
They don't have to, I guess. If they want to be put on the team, apparently they do, as there aren't many, as was said.
Why do you think they need to step up their skills?
I imagine Apple wouldn't settle for less than what they considered 'best'. If no one can do the job to that standard, then their skills aren't as proficient as needed.
Is that the only possible reason there are not more women on the team?
It's the only possible reason that matters. What else is there? It's a job. You can either do it or you can't. If you're not capable of doing it, you shouldn't be. If you don't have the skills to do it, and you WANT to do it, work harder at your job and you should be able to apply. If they're not there, it's either because they don't want to be or there's no one there that can, as yet, meet the standard.
Since Apple employees do not own suits you have to factor in the wardrobe and also you forgot to pay the photographer, grip , lighting, make up event coordinator, the liquor, catering, insurance, public relations manager. etc, etc. It's a long list of people who need to be paid.
Then women need to really step up their skills at designing if they want to work on the best team on the planet.
Why must women must step up their skills? No one said they didn't have the appropriate skills. No one said that quotas had to be met....no one said that Apple should hire more women, just because. But for whatever reason, that was the comment you made.
Said I don't want anyone there that can't do the job. If more women don't have the skills to do the job, they shouldn't be there.
And I don't think anyone would argue with you that if a person doesn't have the skills for a particular job, they shouldn't hold that job. But you are the only one arguing that. You were the one that implied that women didn't have the skills for the job by making that sexist comment out of the blue.
Actually, Russell and JupiterOne appear to be providing a perfect example of people who get easily offended seeing what was never there in the first place.
Tallest Skil's comments were in no-way offensive to any sex, and it's painfully obvious that Russell has an agenda over some previous feud.
How about you two guys calm the hell down and get back onto the original topic of the Apple Design Team award?
Well, I thought the "sarcasm tag" was serving as a "I'm not a militant" tag in this case, easing the delivery of what is potentially a very serious, and important, critique. I hope you were serious enough to mean that we should take a closer look at the possibility of an Apple design monoculture. ;^D - "I am not a militant."
Regardless, the crew there isn't nearly as varied as the iPod touch line they just released.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Then women need to really step up their skills at designing if they want to work on the best team on the planet.
I can see a sexist comment like that is why someone has never kissed a woman before and probably never will.
Originally Posted by Russell
I can see a sexist comment like that is why someone has never kissed a woman before and probably never will.
I want people on the team who can do the frigging job to the standards set forth by the people therein and the project at hand. Anyone who is not capable of doing the job in that capacity has no business being there. Anyone who can do it should certainly apply.
If that's actually somehow sexism, then I don't care.
You should drop this vendetta against me early.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I want people on the team who can do the frigging job to the standards set forth by the people therein and the project at hand. Anyone who is not capable of doing the job in that capacity has no business being there. Anyone who can do it should certainly apply.
If that's actually somehow sexism, then I don't care.
You should drop this vendetta against me early.
If you have such great standards and know all aspects of Apple's business, then get a job there. Tell them how to run their business.
Yes that's sexism and you should care.
I should drop this vendetta? Are you going to do something to me? You just made a thinly veiled threat to a member. You violated AI's TOS, http://forums.appleinsider.com/a/terms-of-service. I don't think AI would want a moderator behaving like that.
What do you think would happen to your Global Moderator status if offended members flag your post?
Originally Posted by Russell
Yes that's sexism and you should care.
It's sexism to want any person unqualified for a job to stay away from that job. Got it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
It's sexism to want any person unqualified for a job to stay away from that job. Got it.
The only person that believes that statement is you.
Originally Posted by Russell
The only person that believes that statement is you.
No, I don't believe it's sexism. That's what you're saying, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
I'm sure Steve wanted them kept in the dark to avoid poaching ... but now ... who in their right mind would leave Apple? I guess if one were offered their own department at Google, Samsung or Microsoft ... hopefully they love working with Jony.
Wow, my first thought as well.
But I'm guessing that would be a hard job to leave. By now, they are either trench buddies or family. It would take more than money to poach them.
Some job roles have unequal distributions of gender. There are more women in HR than men, same with elementary teaching, nursing, waiting service, maid service. There are more men in construction, security/bouncing, fire fighting. A company isn't automatically sexist if the numbers aren't close to even.
I find it hard to believe they only have 16 designers. This is a company with 40,000+ employees. Even with the majority of them retail staff, 16 people can't be responsible for all of the industrial design, website design and graphic design for a company with 388 stores worldwide.
It is a rare occurrence.
Marvin, I understand how different professions have different male to female ratios. I'm not disputing that nor am I blaming anyone for that.
Here's the original post that started it all. While Tallest's successive posts were not as sexist, he hasn't taken ownership (responsibility), for the first one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ochyming
Well done people.
Sad there are few women.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Then women need to really step up their skills at designing if they want to work on the best team on the planet.
Originally Posted by Russell
Marvin, I understand how different professions have different male to female ratios. I'm not disputing that nor am I blaming anyone for that.
Here's the original post that started it all. While Tallest's successive posts were not as sexist, he hasn't taken ownership (responsibility), for the first one.
Of course I've taken ownership. I said it. It's there. Unedited. I'm not going to change it, and I'm not going to modify it.
I'll say it again. If you want women on the team, then they need to be up to the standards therein. If you want minorities on the team, then they need to be up to the standards therein.
Apparently I'm racist now, too.
He's upset there are few women. That's fine. Apple should not compromise anything to meet an arbitrary quota of women or minorities in their teams to make them "feel diverse". If they can do the job, I want them there. If they can do the job better than the people there and whatever other conditions have been met, they can even supplant the people there.
There is nothing racist and nothing sexist about not hiring someone because they can't do the job, nor not wanting someone there because they can't do the job.
They really should have moved the event to Apple /wink
You're missing the point. Someone said it was sad there weren't more women on the team. That's innocent enough of a statement. No one said that Apple should put more women on their team for the sake of having more women.
It was you who made the assumption that women must not have what it takes to be on that team and need to "step up their skills". That assumption is what is sexist. Why do you think they need to step up their skills? Is that the only possible reason there are not more women on the team? Was it necessary to single that out?
Originally Posted by JupiterOne
It was you who made the assumption that women must not have what it takes…
Never said that. Said I don't want anyone there that can't do the job. If more women don't have the skills to do the job, they shouldn't be there. That does not in any way imply that women cannot have said skills.
Why do you think they need to step up their skills?
They don't have to, I guess. If they want to be put on the team, apparently they do, as there aren't many, as was said.
Why do you think they need to step up their skills?
I imagine Apple wouldn't settle for less than what they considered 'best'. If no one can do the job to that standard, then their skills aren't as proficient as needed.
Is that the only possible reason there are not more women on the team?
It's the only possible reason that matters. What else is there? It's a job. You can either do it or you can't. If you're not capable of doing it, you shouldn't be. If you don't have the skills to do it, and you WANT to do it, work harder at your job and you should be able to apply. If they're not there, it's either because they don't want to be or there's no one there that can, as yet, meet the standard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Since Apple employees do not own suits you have to factor in the wardrobe and also you forgot to pay the photographer, grip , lighting, make up event coordinator, the liquor, catering, insurance, public relations manager. etc, etc. It's a long list of people who need to be paid.
Yes, see sig!
...immediately to here...
Why must women must step up their skills? No one said they didn't have the appropriate skills. No one said that quotas had to be met....no one said that Apple should hire more women, just because. But for whatever reason, that was the comment you made.
And I don't think anyone would argue with you that if a person doesn't have the skills for a particular job, they shouldn't hold that job. But you are the only one arguing that. You were the one that implied that women didn't have the skills for the job by making that sexist comment out of the blue.
Originally Posted by JupiterOne
You were the one that implied that women didn't have the skills for the job…
Your linguistic nitpicking aside, no, I never implied that. I actually explicitly stated the opposite.
Actually, Russell and JupiterOne appear to be providing a perfect example of people who get easily offended seeing what was never there in the first place.
Tallest Skil's comments were in no-way offensive to any sex, and it's painfully obvious that Russell has an agenda over some previous feud.
How about you two guys calm the hell down and get back onto the original topic of the Apple Design Team award?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
Perhaps you missed my sarcasm tag.
Well, I thought the "sarcasm tag" was serving as a "I'm not a militant" tag in this case, easing the delivery of what is potentially a very serious, and important, critique. I hope you were serious enough to mean that we should take a closer look at the possibility of an Apple design monoculture. ;^D - "I am not a militant."
Regardless, the crew there isn't nearly as varied as the iPod touch line they just released.