WTF!?! That's either incredibly graphically and media-rich or incredibly stupid.
I think the former. You can download the free chapter of E.O. Wilson's Biology yourself and see. Even still, I don't think there's much excuse for that size.
But the latter is also quite possible. The overhead for the filetype seems to be inexcusably huge. A while back, I was working on transferring an all-text book from a Pages document to the iBooks format with iBooks Author. What had been 1MB is now 238MB. Only a few images have been added, though I plan to add many more. Except it's too flipping huge already. There is no justification for this.
I could see the $349 price point you suggest. Would allow for a lower price first generation iPad Mini next year at $249 and a second generation Mini - still at $349.
It would be really interesting to see a $249 price now on Mini. I'd guess that 75% of sales would be Mini's vs. 9.8" iPad if it did.
I still like the full sized iPad for education. K through maybe 3rd children's motor skills are not sufficiently developed to use small compact UI which is why all preschool learning apps have really big buttons shaped like fruit or animals. For this purpose the iPad 2 is an ideal device because the apps are not that demanding, the screen size is large enough to accommodate the big UI elements and the price is affordable. Once they get a little further along then the iPad mini might be suitable but I still think the full size is better suited for education as it more closely matches the size of a traditional textbook.
Could lose a little screen size for a lot of weight for those little hands, little arms etc. though!
Both, I guess, if you're implying the Adobe ones are also huge. A single chapter of an iBook textbook is over a gigabyte.
WTF!?! That's either incredibly graphically and media-rich or incredibly stupid.
These books, they're mainly text, right? Books of text should not be that big.
I think he is referring to the Life on Earth textbook example which was really over the top with video, animation and multimedia interactive interfaces which made it really large. But if you look at middle school sociology or science textbooks today they are heavy in graphics on almost every page. Theoretically since the new media allows more animation and video these learning apps, tools and iBooks will only become larger over time.
Could lose a little screen size for a lot of weight for those little hands, little arms etc. though!
In that situation the kids will be sitting at a table with the iPad propped up by the smart cover. The kids section of the Apple store is well designed in this manner.
Thanks for listing the iPod & iPad prices along with your iPad Mini predictions.
However, I just can't see Apple trying to break into this new "genre" of devices at such a high price point. If it is this high, I predict failure (i.e. very low # of sales). I'm convinced that Apple realizes the importance of this market segment, so much so, that they're willing to compromise on some of the component performance...essentially building it to come down to a $299 or $329 price point. My guess is that it'll be plastic, non-retina and with A5 chip....but that the camera will still be pretty damn good. Then again, your guess is as good as mine.
VerySmall/portable is worth more than SomewhatSmall/lessPortable-MoreReadable. Lots of discussion on this (why is a laptop more valuable than a desktop...portability and the cost of miniaturization. (why is a wristwatch more expensive than a wall mount clock?)
Pants Pocket vs big coat pocket portability
I would argue that the iPad Mini 'low end' will be 16GB at either 199 or 249, with 3g(ATT4g;-))&CDMA being $100 more, which align with your price point(s).
$199 is the price point as set by Google/Amazon. That's a damn low pricing umbrella. You're gonna beat the Android people into selling for a loss and/or at crapware quality levels and only Amazon can afford to do that. Maybe MotoMobo/Google, but they appear to be shutting down that division.
I suspect you may be close if not on the money other than the 199, I feel that's too low.
I think the former. You can download the free chapter of E.O. Wilson's Biology yourself and see. Even still, I don't think there's much excuse for that size.
But the latter is also quite possible. The overhead for the filetype seems to be inexcusably huge. A while back, I was working on transferring an all-text book from a Pages document to the iBooks format with iBooks Author. What had been 1MB is now 238MB. Only a few images have been added, though I plan to add many more. Except it's too flipping huge already. There is no justification for this.
OMF. One would think Pages, iBooks, not that different? Wow. That is incredible. What if it were ePub, presumably would be a tad smaller? That sort of increase in size does seem completely unjustifiable, true. Thanks
OMF. One would think Pages, iBooks, not that different? Wow. That is incredible. What if it were ePub, presumably would be a tad smaller? That sort of increase in size does seem completely unjustifiable, true. Thanks
Just exported that Pages document to an ePub. 655 KB.
See my reply above. All I meant was that their prices all carry roughly double the margins of other sellers and could easily be reduced considering the overall state of their financials.
"jragosta" is always mis-interpreting me, but since others are also replying I guess I wasn't that clear.
A list of Failures: That's what I asked. None is what I got.
You presented evidence the market is rewarding Apple for the effectiveness of their products and/or their marketing. When millions of people buy something, I find your statement "Apple will have failed yet again to make an affordable product for the masses" to be lacking evidence. The masses appear to be buying everything they sell.
While I love the thought of every person having an iPad, it doesn't make free market sense to do so? Is owning a computer/ipad/mobile phone some sort of inalienable human right? I didn't think so.
It makes more sense for Apple to 'donate' several million at 'full cost' to appropriate tax advantaged gov't programs and NGOs, AFTER, the getting all the market value out of the product line.
Thanks for listing the iPod & iPad prices along with your iPad Mini predictions.
However, I just can't see Apple trying to break into this new "genre" of devices at such a high price point. If it is this high, I predict failure (i.e. very low # of sales). I'm convinced that Apple realizes the importance of this market segment, so much so, that they're willing to compromise on some of the component performance...essentially building it to come down to a $299 or $329 price point. My guess is that it'll be plastic, non-retina and with A5 chip....but that the camera will still be pretty damn good. Then again, your guess is as good as mine.
A £329 is possible, but is it necessary? Apple will only lose profit out of necessity; will Apple sell tons more at £299 rather than £349? No. But it may have to compromise on quality. $299 or under attempts to compete with Ama/Goog, and probably at 8GB with them. That's not where Apple wants to go, nor needs to. They also need to keep prices roughly in line with their other products or risk devaluing them. Current 16GB 7-inchers are ~$350:
Those are valid & well-thought out options, but think it will be in the middle: A5, HD camera, plastic housing, 16 GB... for $299 (maybe $329). 32 GB for $399. CDMA/LTE extra.
Reason: Apple will not make "crap" but their marketing/sales conclusion is that this price range and physical size caters to a critical addressable market...maybe not massive yet, but it will. I'm guessing that plastic is not only cheaper, but may actually appeal to the potential users of this market who want a lighter/smaller device.
i disagree using the Cook Credo: Apple will not allow a pricing umbrella in the product line. Crap not withstanding, if Apple builds an 8" device, it will be at the price point of the current market 7" devices. Apple stated up front that 7" was a crappy user experience for the iPad (size battery life, UI). The market is speaking that the form factor is indeed interesting to apple, and they want to continue to have a 'gateway drug' device into the iOS ecosystem. this has to be a great interface. My guess it will be similar to current iPad or the current iPhone, not plastic, again, to differentiate the iPad brand.
I see a ~$50 price premium ($249) over the current competition, but not $100. At this level, $100 is significant.
This should be a 'Zune' killer play. make it impossible for others to make a Board of Directors approvable profit in the 4.1"-7.5" space. Apple will be happy with 'cheap' competitors, but not one that can has a 'quality' of the iPad at a price 25% less than the iPad.
Apple has never played in a race to the bottom space. I don't think they'll start now. But that's why I think this smaller iPad has to have something compelling that would warrant a premium over Fire HD and Nexus. I don't think the iOS ecosystem is enough to charge 50-100 more for the device. But the latest internals with retina display and great build quality would make that more compelling. With the smaller iPad I think we'll find out how much buying decisions are based on price vs. size. If Apple chooses to sell a smaller iPad with iPad 2 type specs AND sell it for 50-100 more than Fire HD and Nexus I don't see it selling very well. The reviews alone would be brutal and would probably put some off buying it.
In that situation the kids will be sitting at a table with the iPad propped up by the smart cover. The kids section of the Apple store is well designed in this manner.
True. Although maybe out of necessity rather than preference? The large screen size is always going to be preferable for most though, you're right.
Crap not withstanding, if Apple builds an 8" device, it will be at the price point of the current market 7" devices.
...I see a ~$50 price premium ($249) over the current competition, but not $100. At this level, $100 is significant.
Sorry, I don't know where your information is coming from, but Google's and Amazon's tablets are 8GB. The average price for real, for-profit electronics manufacturer's 16GB tablets is around $349. That's no premium at all, in fact.
Those would be only a megabyte or so each, wouldn't they?
Yes! What else could they shovel in? Textures? Loads and loads of markup? Giant images optimised for a full-screen retina display? What else could possibly be in there? Unless there's no reading or interpretation of the file by iBooks at all... as in it is actually completely self-contained, including generic redundant code for all "textbook" features? But that's crazy talk, right?
Yes! What else could they shovel in? Textures? Loads and loads of markup? Giant images optimised for a full-screen retina display? What else could possibly be in there? Unless there's no reading or interpretation of the file by iBooks at all... as in it is actually completely self-contained, including generic redundant code for all "textbook" features? But that's crazy talk, right?
Well, the page textures are there, so let's call that 30 megs for the retinas…
Sorry, I don't know where your information is coming from, but Google's and Amazon's tablets are 8GB. The average price for real, for-profit electronics manufacturer's 16GB tablets is around $349. That's no premium at all, in fact.
as well. So... I guess... you're wrong. that was a waste of my time.
I use 16GB because in wifi as a media player, 8 hours of movies are the minimum. 8GB would crimp that number. Also, these devices have great resolution. Price can be lower due to screen cost.
'real' or imagined... Apple has to attack perception... if Google announced but not shipped a price, that's the price to address.
So... I guess... you're wrong. that was a waste of my time.
Agreed. The original Fire has only just been released over here in the UK, and I think I probably got confused - for some reason I thought you got quite a lot less than 16GB in the new one too?
I was attempting to state how the $199 price point (or anywhere close) is ridiculously unrealistic for Apple, or any electronics company who need to make profit on hardware, at least for the time being. Amazon & Google are in a battle for the barrel scrapings, and noone in their right mind is going to be throwing their whole lot down that hope-market-share-beats-hardware-profit pit with them. Not even Sammy. For that way madness lies!
Comments
Originally Posted by TimmyDax
WTF!?! That's either incredibly graphically and media-rich or incredibly stupid.
I think the former. You can download the free chapter of E.O. Wilson's Biology yourself and see. Even still, I don't think there's much excuse for that size.
But the latter is also quite possible. The overhead for the filetype seems to be inexcusably huge. A while back, I was working on transferring an all-text book from a Pages document to the iBooks format with iBooks Author. What had been 1MB is now 238MB. Only a few images have been added, though I plan to add many more. Except it's too flipping huge already. There is no justification for this.
I could see the $349 price point you suggest. Would allow for a lower price first generation iPad Mini next year at $249 and a second generation Mini - still at $349.
It would be really interesting to see a $249 price now on Mini. I'd guess that 75% of sales would be Mini's vs. 9.8" iPad if it did.
Could lose a little screen size for a lot of weight for those little hands, little arms etc. though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Both, I guess, if you're implying the Adobe ones are also huge. A single chapter of an iBook textbook is over a gigabyte.
WTF!?! That's either incredibly graphically and media-rich or incredibly stupid.
These books, they're mainly text, right? Books of text should not be that big.
I think he is referring to the Life on Earth textbook example which was really over the top with video, animation and multimedia interactive interfaces which made it really large. But if you look at middle school sociology or science textbooks today they are heavy in graphics on almost every page. Theoretically since the new media allows more animation and video these learning apps, tools and iBooks will only become larger over time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax
Could lose a little screen size for a lot of weight for those little hands, little arms etc. though!
In that situation the kids will be sitting at a table with the iPad propped up by the smart cover. The kids section of the Apple store is well designed in this manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax
iPad M : £299 (16GB) $349
iPad M : £379 (32GB) $449
iPad M : £459 (64GB) $549
Thanks for listing the iPod & iPad prices along with your iPad Mini predictions.
However, I just can't see Apple trying to break into this new "genre" of devices at such a high price point. If it is this high, I predict failure (i.e. very low # of sales). I'm convinced that Apple realizes the importance of this market segment, so much so, that they're willing to compromise on some of the component performance...essentially building it to come down to a $299 or $329 price point. My guess is that it'll be plastic, non-retina and with A5 chip....but that the camera will still be pretty damn good. Then again, your guess is as good as mine.
I suspect you may be close if not on the money other than the 199, I feel that's too low.
OMF. One would think Pages, iBooks, not that different? Wow. That is incredible. What if it were ePub, presumably would be a tad smaller? That sort of increase in size does seem completely unjustifiable, true. Thanks
Originally Posted by TimmyDax
OMF. One would think Pages, iBooks, not that different? Wow. That is incredible. What if it were ePub, presumably would be a tad smaller? That sort of increase in size does seem completely unjustifiable, true. Thanks
Just exported that Pages document to an ePub. 655 KB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
See my reply above. All I meant was that their prices all carry roughly double the margins of other sellers and could easily be reduced considering the overall state of their financials.
"jragosta" is always mis-interpreting me, but since others are also replying I guess I wasn't that clear.
A list of Failures: That's what I asked. None is what I got.
You presented evidence the market is rewarding Apple for the effectiveness of their products and/or their marketing. When millions of people buy something, I find your statement "Apple will have failed yet again to make an affordable product for the masses" to be lacking evidence. The masses appear to be buying everything they sell.
While I love the thought of every person having an iPad, it doesn't make free market sense to do so? Is owning a computer/ipad/mobile phone some sort of inalienable human right? I didn't think so.
It makes more sense for Apple to 'donate' several million at 'full cost' to appropriate tax advantaged gov't programs and NGOs, AFTER, the getting all the market value out of the product line.
A £329 is possible, but is it necessary? Apple will only lose profit out of necessity; will Apple sell tons more at £299 rather than £349? No. But it may have to compromise on quality. $299 or under attempts to compete with Ama/Goog, and probably at 8GB with them. That's not where Apple wants to go, nor needs to. They also need to keep prices roughly in line with their other products or risk devaluing them. Current 16GB 7-inchers are ~$350:
http://tablets.venturebeat.com/saved_search/7-Inch-Android-Tablets
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewys808
Those are valid & well-thought out options, but think it will be in the middle: A5, HD camera, plastic housing, 16 GB... for $299 (maybe $329). 32 GB for $399. CDMA/LTE extra.
Reason: Apple will not make "crap" but their marketing/sales conclusion is that this price range and physical size caters to a critical addressable market...maybe not massive yet, but it will. I'm guessing that plastic is not only cheaper, but may actually appeal to the potential users of this market who want a lighter/smaller device.
i disagree using the Cook Credo: Apple will not allow a pricing umbrella in the product line. Crap not withstanding, if Apple builds an 8" device, it will be at the price point of the current market 7" devices. Apple stated up front that 7" was a crappy user experience for the iPad (size battery life, UI). The market is speaking that the form factor is indeed interesting to apple, and they want to continue to have a 'gateway drug' device into the iOS ecosystem. this has to be a great interface. My guess it will be similar to current iPad or the current iPhone, not plastic, again, to differentiate the iPad brand.
I see a ~$50 price premium ($249) over the current competition, but not $100. At this level, $100 is significant.
This should be a 'Zune' killer play. make it impossible for others to make a Board of Directors approvable profit in the 4.1"-7.5" space. Apple will be happy with 'cheap' competitors, but not one that can has a 'quality' of the iPad at a price 25% less than the iPad.
That's amazing. What on earth are Apple doing!?! Embedded fonts?
I'm voting ePub and describing my diagrams!
True. Although maybe out of necessity rather than preference? The large screen size is always going to be preferable for most though, you're right.
Originally Posted by TimmyDax
That's amazing. What on earth are Apple doing!?! Embedded fonts?
Those would be only a megabyte or so each, wouldn't they?
Sorry, I don't know where your information is coming from, but Google's and Amazon's tablets are 8GB. The average price for real, for-profit electronics manufacturer's 16GB tablets is around $349. That's no premium at all, in fact.
Edit: £349 instead of $349!
Yes! What else could they shovel in? Textures? Loads and loads of markup? Giant images optimised for a full-screen retina display? What else could possibly be in there? Unless there's no reading or interpretation of the file by iBooks at all... as in it is actually completely self-contained, including generic redundant code for all "textbook" features? But that's crazy talk, right?
Originally Posted by TimmyDax
Yes! What else could they shovel in? Textures? Loads and loads of markup? Giant images optimised for a full-screen retina display? What else could possibly be in there? Unless there's no reading or interpretation of the file by iBooks at all... as in it is actually completely self-contained, including generic redundant code for all "textbook" features? But that's crazy talk, right?
Well, the page textures are there, so let's call that 30 megs for the retinas…
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax
Sorry, I don't know where your information is coming from, but Google's and Amazon's tablets are 8GB. The average price for real, for-profit electronics manufacturer's 16GB tablets is around $349. That's no premium at all, in fact.
Edit: £349 instead of $349!
You or Wikipedia are incorrect with Amazon's memory (and price): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindle_Fire_HD
7" kindle fire HD 16GB is $199
8.9" 16GB is 299. with 4G $499.
And the Nexus 7 16GB is $249 per the same source.
If you have correct information, please update Wikipedia. Oh Wait... amazon.com lists a 16GB Kindle fire HD 16GB at 199 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008GGCAVM/ref=amb_link_365379862_3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=17PBX5PRZWZ6MF9P3Y9T&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1398956162&pf_rd_i=507846
and the Nexus at 262 http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B008M04V1E/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new
as well. So... I guess... you're wrong. that was a waste of my time.
I use 16GB because in wifi as a media player, 8 hours of movies are the minimum. 8GB would crimp that number. Also, these devices have great resolution. Price can be lower due to screen cost.
'real' or imagined... Apple has to attack perception... if Google announced but not shipped a price, that's the price to address.
Agreed. The original Fire has only just been released over here in the UK, and I think I probably got confused - for some reason I thought you got quite a lot less than 16GB in the new one too?
I was attempting to state how the $199 price point (or anywhere close) is ridiculously unrealistic for Apple, or any electronics company who need to make profit on hardware, at least for the time being. Amazon & Google are in a battle for the barrel scrapings, and noone in their right mind is going to be throwing their whole lot down that hope-market-share-beats-hardware-profit pit with them. Not even Sammy. For that way madness lies!