Microsoft's a software company, and I think they should just take that to the extreme. Only make software. Not OS'. Get their money that way, the way they should have always done it, and let Apple take care of selling computers and OS'.
Depending g on the reception to these tablets, and even Win Phone 8 overall, they may have to do this.
But this is a big conundrum for Microsoft. It's been stated before. But if Office is available for iOS, unless it's cut down so much as to be just a fraction of the normal suite, it will cut into Microsoft's tablet sales. After all, there's nothing about Microsoft's new tablets that isn't already there for the iPad. Keyboards included. Except for a trackpad, of course.
I have read that up to 50% of all iPad sales are to business. While I don't know what they are all used for, some of the biggest companies and government departments are using them instead of notebooks. I would have to assume that means some word processing, etc.
If so, it seems as though business may be finding that for much use, Office isn't needed. If that goes on for too long, the grip Office has will be loosened.
The problem Microsoft has, and it's a rock and a hard place, is whether to bow to the inevitable, and produce it for iPads, and other tablets, or hope that Win 8 tablets will sell because of a monopoly on the ability to host office.
Perhaps they're waiting until March to be able to access the initial success of these new tablets, both x86, and ARM RT.
For over a year I had been saying that MS should bring Office to the iPad -- that MS needed to get its feet wet (gain experience) with post-PC devices -- limited resources and the [relatively] stark "in your face" (single window) UI. I thought that this would also help sales of iPads into businesses where Office compatibility was needed.
Now, I'm not so sure! According to reviews I've read, by Peter Bright, Office running on a tablet is not a successful implementation, nor a satisfactory experience. It seems that Microsoft has put a touch interface on the highest levels of the Office apps but the UI quickly degrades when you go deeper into the apps... To the point of being unusable.
So, brilliantly, MS comes up with a strategy of furnishing tablets with keyboards… There are a few Metro touch widgets, but the bread-and-butter apps: i.e. Office -- are unusable without a keyboard and trackpad.
This is just the way Windows and Office have been running on tablets for the last 10 years! It was unusable then, and I suspect it will be just as unusable today.
So why bring this "disaster in the wings" to the iPad?
You might answer: "Because business needs compatibility with the office apps running on their computers. "
But what do you gain if the app (tablet Office) providing compatibility -- is unusable?
Wouldn't you be better off with the designed-for-iPad iWork apps -- and put up with some format and feature compatibilities with Office running on a computer?
iWork running on an iPad will, likely, never be 100 percent compatible with office running on a computer...
But, according to Peter Bright, Office running on Windows RT will never be 100 percent compatible either!
Depending g on the reception to these tablets, and even Win Phone 8 overall, they may have to do this.
Hey, Ballmer himself said that 8 might be their last consumer OS if it doesn't sell well*. And it's not gonna sell well! So there's that facet killed off, potentially. But I also think he meant desktop. I'll bet (and I approve of) them continuing work with Windows Phone 8 in the phone and partial tablet space. We need an honest competitor to iOS.
… Wow. Microsoft being responsible for the honest competitor to an Apple product. How far Google has made the world fall…
*Now, here I'm running on something I read about 8 early on, meaning over 20 minutes ago. Since that's the case, I'm not sure it's exactly what I read, so if I'm wrong, correct me.
This is great news. I will be buy Office for iPad the day it comes out. The Apple office apps are good, especially Keynote & Pages, but Numbers is just not good enough for a lot of people. It's a very simplified version of Excel. I think that this is a pretty big deal & will result in a lot of sales for Microsoft. What company that is using iPads wouldn't equip their sales people (or whoever they are giving the iPads to) with mobile versions of office? This will be great for Microsoft on the softwre side & great for Apple on the hardware side.
This is great news. I will be buy Office for iPad the day it comes out. The Apple office apps are good, especially Keynote & Pages, but Numbers is just not good enough for a lot of people. It's a very simplified version of Excel. I think that this is a pretty big deal & will result in a lot of sales for Microsoft. What company that is using iPads wouldn't equip their sales people (or whoever they are giving the iPads to) with mobile versions of office? This will be great for Microsoft on the softwre side & great for Apple on the hardware side.
You may not get what you think you are you are getting... or need!
Web surf for "peter bright office windows rt" and read what an MS proponent thinks...
Quote:
Having the real Office applications and their perfect support for Office documents is valuable—but this needs to be married to simpler interfaces that are engineered around reading and light editing, and that remove entire features and user interfaces that are too complex for finger usage.
As things stand, far from being a valuable feature of Windows RT, the Office 2013 applications threaten to make it worse.
Windows RT tablets are expected to ship at the end of October with a Preview version of Office 2013 RT, but users will be able to upgrade to a final version in early 2013. Nonetheless, Office Home and Student 2013 RT won’t come with some staple features, including macros, third-party add-ins or VBA (visual basic for applications) support. And Microsoft will reportedly remove other smaller features as well.
If the report proves true, Microsoft’s decision could hurt the deployment of Windows RT tablets in enterprise situations, where users depend on full-featured Office functions. And if Microsoft needs to remove much more from Office RT, leaving it relatively bare-bones, it might also affect whether everyday consumers purchase Windows RT devices, including Surface. Office currently costs as much as $120 to install on a single PC, so having a full version of the suite on Windows RT has been a big selling point of the Windows RT platform.
If this rumor turns out to actually be true, Microsoft's tablet and phone sales are DOA. The only possible way they can get a foothold in the tablet market at this point is to leverage Office as a unique "advantage" on the platform. It's not a guaranty or success, but it's really their only chance right now. Throwing that away by producing versions for other mobile platforms, would be giving up the fight for Win 8 tablets and phones before it even starts.
Even Microsoft isn't betting that heavy on Office RT with the ARM processor
When I first read the article I thought it was saying someone at the Czech division was making this claim. Then I said to myself 'it's just bad writing and it was the division manager who happened to be in the Czech Republic at the time'
Nope, turns out I read it right. His claim has been denied by the US office, saying there are no such plans for such a release.
IF they got Office for iOS out by March they might have done okay. Especially if it was school friendly. But they are quickly approaching the land of way way too late to bother on this front.
For over a year I had been saying that MS should bring Office to the iPad -- that MS needed to get its feet wet (gain experience) with post-PC devices -- limited resources and the [relatively] stark "in your face" (single window) UI. I thought that this would also help sales of iPads into businesses where Office compatibility was needed.
Now, I'm not so sure! According to reviews I've read, by Peter Bright, Office running on a tablet is not a successful implementation, nor a satisfactory experience. It seems that Microsoft has put a touch interface on the highest levels of the Office apps but the UI quickly degrades when you go deeper into the apps... To the point of being unusable.
So, brilliantly, MS comes up with a strategy of furnishing tablets with keyboards… There are a few Metro touch widgets, but the bread-and-butter apps: i.e. Office -- are unusable without a keyboard and trackpad.
This is just the way Windows and Office have been running on tablets for the last 10 years! It was unusable then, and I suspect it will be just as unusable today.
So why bring this "disaster in the wings" to the iPad?
You might answer: "Because business needs compatibility with the office apps running on their computers. "
But what do you gain if the app (tablet Office) providing compatibility -- is unusable?
Wouldn't you be better off with the designed-for-iPad iWork apps -- and put up with some format and feature compatibilities with Office running on a computer?
iWork running on an iPad will, likely, never be 100 percent compatible with office running on a computer...
But, according to Peter Bright, Office running on Windows RT will never be 100 percent compatible either!
On their own equipment, Office is running in the Desktop. This is even true with ARM RT tablets, though there is no real Desktop there. If they did this for the iPad, I would have to assume they wouldn't, because they couldn't, do it that way. Apples guidelines must be observed.
Hey, Ballmer himself said that 8 might be their last consumer OS if it doesn't sell well*. And it's not gonna sell well! So there's that facet killed off, potentially. But I also think he meant desktop. I'll bet (and I approve of) them continuing work with Windows Phone 8 in the phone and partial tablet space. We need an honest competitor to iOS.
… Wow. Microsoft being responsible for the honest competitor to an Apple product. How far Google has made the world fall…
[SIZE=11px]*Now, here I'm running on something I read about 8 early on, meaning over 20 minutes ago. Since that's the case, I'm not sure it's exactly what I read, so if I'm wrong, correct me. [/SIZE]
We know the Desktop is being depreciated, because Microsoft has said so. The Modern UI (MUI) will be the UI for the future, along with the programming model, which is actually pretty good. But that dang UI is where people are hung up. Right now, I've been running the previews, and spend most of my time in the Desktop. But when that goes away, unless Microsoft makes the MUI much more sophisticated, they will lose their commercial and professional base. Those users require the complexity of "standard" Windows, just as some users here have already been complaining about the iOSification of OS X.
Because, at this point in time, whenever you need to do anything past the more basic operations, you need the Desktop to do it. The MUI is the new Start button, except that it's the entire screen.
I also see a lot of confusion between the "Pro" Win 8 and RT. they look exactly the same right now. So if you have two tablets side by side running the UI, you can't tell them apart. Only when you pick them up and feel the extra half pound or so and extra thickness of the Pro tablets can you tell they are different. But, even then, as we see with different notebooks, they are all different sizes and weights, but run the same Windows OS, so even those differences don't tell us much. The price will say something, but even there, for most uninformed consumers (and aren't most consumers, almost by definition, uninformed?) that won't tell them anything either. They will just buy the cheaper machine.
This is great news. I will be buy Office for iPad the day it comes out. The Apple office apps are good, especially Keynote & Pages, but Numbers is just not good enough for a lot of people. It's a very simplified version of Excel. I think that this is a pretty big deal & will result in a lot of sales for Microsoft. What company that is using iPads wouldn't equip their sales people (or whoever they are giving the iPads to) with mobile versions of office? This will be great for Microsoft on the softwre side & great for Apple on the hardware side.
I agree. Despite those here who think anything Microsoft is a waste of time, Office really is a pretty important piece of software. But they had better do this soon. March is fine. But a lot of users are finding that they don't need office on their tablets because of the apps that give compatability in some way. If they wait too long, those users will find that maybe they don't need Office at all.
After all, most word processing, spreadsheet work, and presentations can be done with Apple's apps now. Remember the old saying about Office, 80% of the users only use 20% of the features. If Apple, or some other company can get those 20% nailed, then those 80% won't need Office (assuming, of course, that they all need that same 20%). So to cover most people, all it really needs is perhaps 30% of the features.
So Office will be great, but not if they wait too long.
Don't forget that none of those features ever made it to the Mac version of Office anyway, but still, Office is very popular with Mac users, especially in the corporate environment.
The Modern UI (MUI) will be the UI for the future, along with the programming model, which is actually pretty good. But that dang UI is where people are hung up. But when that goes away, unless Microsoft makes the MUI much more sophisticated, they will lose their commercial and professional base. Those users require the complexity of "standard" Windows, just as some users here have already been complaining about the iOSification of OS X. The price will say something, but even there, for most uninformed consumers (and aren't most consumers, almost by definition, uninformed?) that won't tell them anything either. They will just buy the cheaper machine.
The fun will start once they get them home.
"Metro" was such a funnier better name. Calling it "modern" immediately dates it.
The future doesn't look very bright for Microsoft, should this be the case. They're killing off the old without preparing for the new.
My only concern is that Apple won't be able to keep up with the manufacturing demand for new Macs.
For over a year I had been saying that MS should bring Office to the iPad -- that MS needed to get its feet wet (gain experience) with post-PC devices -- limited resources and the [relatively] stark "in your face" (single window) UI. I thought that this would also help sales of iPads into businesses where Office compatibility was needed.
Now, I'm not so sure! According to reviews I've read, by Peter Bright, Office running on a tablet is not a successful implementation, nor a satisfactory experience. It seems that Microsoft has put a touch interface on the highest levels of the Office apps but the UI quickly degrades when you go deeper into the apps... To the point of being unusable.
So, brilliantly, MS comes up with a strategy of furnishing tablets with keyboards… There are a few Metro touch widgets, but the bread-and-butter apps: i.e. Office -- are unusable without a keyboard and trackpad.
This is just the way Windows and Office have been running on tablets for the last 10 years! It was unusable then, and I suspect it will be just as unusable today.
So why bring this "disaster in the wings" to the iPad?
You might answer: "Because business needs compatibility with the office apps running on their computers. "
But what do you gain if the app (tablet Office) providing compatibility -- is unusable?
Wouldn't you be better off with the designed-for-iPad iWork apps -- and put up with some format and feature compatibilities with Office running on a computer?
iWork running on an iPad will, likely, never be 100 percent compatible with office running on a computer...
But, according to Peter Bright, Office running on Windows RT will never be 100 percent compatible either!
On their own equipment, Office is running in the Desktop. This is even true with ARM RT tablets, though there is no real Desktop there. If they did this for the iPad, I would have to assume they wouldn't, because they couldn't, do it that way. Apples guidelines must be observed.
Excellent point! I hadn't even considered that! So, it isn't only Touch UI issues and missing features like maros -- inaccessable OS features like the File System, Document Sharing, etc. could be insurmountable hurdles to successful implementation on iDevices and possibly Android devices.
Excellent point! I hadn't even considered that! So, it isn't only Touch UI issues and missing features like maros -- inaccessable OS features like the File System, Document Sharing, etc. could be insurmountable hurdles to successful implementation on iDevices and possibly Android devices.
There's an issue that I keep bringing up in various sites that is mostly being ignored.
The Desktop for Win 8 isn't that much different from the Desktop in Win 7, or anything before, other than for the flattening (and amazingly boring, and cheap looking) of all UI elements in Win 8. Otherwise, except for the removal of the start button to the MUI, it's pretty much the same.
Now, for those who used them, or just remember what was written about them, those 13-15.4" convertables that were being sold as Windows tablets for all those years weren't very popular because of three things. One was the price, as they were expensive. More than a standard laptop. Two was because they were big and heavy. Hard to use a "tablet" that weighs 3.5-7 pounds on your arm.
And three was the real biggie! It's almost Impossible to use windows, and its software, with a stylus on a "small" 13-15.4" screen. Note those sizes.
So now what have they come up with? 10.6-11.6" screens! Hey! How are these going to be easier to use? Well, they obviously won't be. So every "tablet" will either come with a keyboard, or will have one available from the manufacturer. You pretty much HAVE to use a keyboard and touchpad with the Desktop. No choice, really. It's almost impossible to go about in any other way.
Anyone here want to use OS X on a 10" screen with your finger, or a stylus? They also need more screen accuracy, to use that stylus with the tiny touch points there are, so a lot of these things will have a resistive layer as well as a capacitive layer. Not because its a great feature the iPad doesn't have, but the extra accuracy of a resistive screen is a requirement.
i am stunned by this, but I guess it makes sense -- the MS Office division isn't going to go down with the Windows 8 ship.
Windows 8 is a joke. I would never recommend it to any person. Microsloft Orifice (office tee hee) though? Yes I would recommend that product. I have run Winders 8. Not my first choice for productivity. Winders 8 is like changing the way a car steers. Microsoft basically said we will make the car turn right then you turn the steering wheel left.
There are ways around this. Office could come as one app, with tappable buttons for the other portions. Besides, what is meant by suites of apps? I have several apps that qualify as suites. You have a main menu, and from that you select which app in the suite you want. You can purchase more apps for the suite as you need.
I'm sure the developer could assign common memory storage for the suite so that figures from a spreadsheet could be used in a word processor or presentation app. Apple chose to not do it that way so that they could sell the suite one at a time. Microsoft may choose differently.
Look up AudioTools for one. That definitely qualifies as a suite.
Yeah, it comes down to "what is a suite?" of course, and depending on how you define it, a "suite" could certainly be fudged into iOS. It would likely not be workable with something as complex as Office is though and would require a rewrite of all the base apps anyway. I am 99% certain that at some point in the process of boiling down all that complexity, that someone would see the simpler, clearer solution of doing separate apps like Apple has instead.
Technically apps can now talk to each other and send things to each other also so the original "ban" on suites of inter-related apps is not quite moot but getting there.
I just don't see Microsoft doing this at all though. It makes no sense for them to make a "proper" touch-enabled Word app for iOS until they can make one for Metro and everything they have shown so far indicates that they are having no luck at all in doing that. Their phone software is capable, and their existing iOS apps are "ok" but there is no excitement there. As I said, I seriously doubt they have the talent to make a "post-PC" Office at all.
Microsoft hasn't made anything (software wise), that would make anyone go "wow" for decades now IMO. They still get the press when they make their announcements, but it's just been one PoS after another since almost Windows XP days.
This is great news. I will be buy Office for iPad the day it comes out. The Apple office apps are good, especially Keynote & Pages, but Numbers is just not good enough for a lot of people. It's a very simplified version of Excel. I think that this is a pretty big deal & will result in a lot of sales for Microsoft. What company that is using iPads wouldn't equip their sales people (or whoever they are giving the iPads to) with mobile versions of office? This will be great for Microsoft on the softwre side & great for Apple on the hardware side.
I agree. Despite those here who think anything Microsoft is a waste of time, Office really is a pretty important piece of software. But they had better do this soon. March is fine. But a lot of users are finding that they don't need office on their tablets because of the apps that give compatability in some way. If they wait too long, those users will find that maybe they don't need Office at all.
After all, most word processing, spreadsheet work, and presentations can be done with Apple's apps now. Remember the old saying about Office, 80% of the users only use 20% of the features. If Apple, or some other company can get those 20% nailed, then those 80% won't need Office (assuming, of course, that they all need that same 20%). So to cover most people, all it really needs is perhaps 30% of the features.
So Office will be great, but not if they wait too long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
You may not get what you think you are you are getting... or need!
Web surf for "peter bright office windows rt" and read what an MS proponent thinks...
Don't forget that none of those features ever made it to the Mac version of Office anyway, but still, Office is very popular with Mac users, especially in the corporate environmen
I am sure you remember when Word and Excel were introduced on the Original Mac in the mid 1980s -- each app came on a 400 KB (yes, folks that is 400 thousand Bytes) microfloppy disk
Both were well-designed, powerful and efficient apps that set the standard for their time...
Excel, especially, in the hands of an expert, could make the computer sing (and dance)... In those days it was pretty easy to become an expert!
I no-longer use either Word or Excel -- nor do I have dealings with the "power users" who exploit the more esoteric features of these apps.
I suspect that your 80-20 assessment is correct! I guess my questions are:
what real * capabilities has MS added to the basic apps from 1980s?
which of these are capabilities are needed in a Touch Tablet interface?
can they be implemented without destroying the advantages of the Touch Tablet user UX?
* I don't consider nice-to-have feature creep and half/full-screen toolbars as capabilities.
Your point: that the Mac implementation of Office lacked many features of the Windows implementation... but was still an important product -- is a valid point!
It is also likely that iWork on the Mac and the iPad can satisfy many of the needs of Mac Office users.
And, Apple could/should identify and implement the most-needed features in iWork for OS X and iOS. I suspect that Apple has already done this and was/is holding off to "encourage" MS to improve the Mac versions and release iPad versions.
Finally, do you think that MS can provide workable-enough versions of these apps on the iPad... by March 2013?
From what I read, and have seen, I do not think they can -- it may already be too late!
Comments
Depending g on the reception to these tablets, and even Win Phone 8 overall, they may have to do this.
For over a year I had been saying that MS should bring Office to the iPad -- that MS needed to get its feet wet (gain experience) with post-PC devices -- limited resources and the [relatively] stark "in your face" (single window) UI. I thought that this would also help sales of iPads into businesses where Office compatibility was needed.
Now, I'm not so sure! According to reviews I've read, by Peter Bright, Office running on a tablet is not a successful implementation, nor a satisfactory experience. It seems that Microsoft has put a touch interface on the highest levels of the Office apps but the UI quickly degrades when you go deeper into the apps... To the point of being unusable.
So, brilliantly, MS comes up with a strategy of furnishing tablets with keyboards… There are a few Metro touch widgets, but the bread-and-butter apps: i.e. Office -- are unusable without a keyboard and trackpad.
This is just the way Windows and Office have been running on tablets for the last 10 years! It was unusable then, and I suspect it will be just as unusable today.
So why bring this "disaster in the wings" to the iPad?
You might answer: "Because business needs compatibility with the office apps running on their computers. "
But what do you gain if the app (tablet Office) providing compatibility -- is unusable?
Wouldn't you be better off with the designed-for-iPad iWork apps -- and put up with some format and feature compatibilities with Office running on a computer?
iWork running on an iPad will, likely, never be 100 percent compatible with office running on a computer...
But, according to Peter Bright, Office running on Windows RT will never be 100 percent compatible either!
Originally Posted by melgross
Depending g on the reception to these tablets, and even Win Phone 8 overall, they may have to do this.
Hey, Ballmer himself said that 8 might be their last consumer OS if it doesn't sell well*. And it's not gonna sell well! So there's that facet killed off, potentially. But I also think he meant desktop. I'll bet (and I approve of) them continuing work with Windows Phone 8 in the phone and partial tablet space. We need an honest competitor to iOS.
… Wow. Microsoft being responsible for the honest competitor to an Apple product. How far Google has made the world fall…
*Now, here I'm running on something I read about 8 early on, meaning over 20 minutes ago. Since that's the case, I'm not sure it's exactly what I read, so if I'm wrong, correct me.
This is great news. I will be buy Office for iPad the day it comes out. The Apple office apps are good, especially Keynote & Pages, but Numbers is just not good enough for a lot of people. It's a very simplified version of Excel. I think that this is a pretty big deal & will result in a lot of sales for Microsoft. What company that is using iPads wouldn't equip their sales people (or whoever they are giving the iPads to) with mobile versions of office? This will be great for Microsoft on the softwre side & great for Apple on the hardware side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkral
This is great news. I will be buy Office for iPad the day it comes out. The Apple office apps are good, especially Keynote & Pages, but Numbers is just not good enough for a lot of people. It's a very simplified version of Excel. I think that this is a pretty big deal & will result in a lot of sales for Microsoft. What company that is using iPads wouldn't equip their sales people (or whoever they are giving the iPads to) with mobile versions of office? This will be great for Microsoft on the softwre side & great for Apple on the hardware side.
You may not get what you think you are you are getting... or need!
Web surf for "peter bright office windows rt" and read what an MS proponent thinks...
Quote:
Having the real Office applications and their perfect support for Office documents is valuable—but this needs to be married to simpler interfaces that are engineered around reading and light editing, and that remove entire features and user interfaces that are too complex for finger usage.
As things stand, far from being a valuable feature of Windows RT, the Office 2013 applications threaten to make it worse.
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/why-bother-the-sad-state-of-office-2013-touch-support/
and this
Quote:
Windows RT tablets are expected to ship at the end of October with a Preview version of Office 2013 RT, but users will be able to upgrade to a final version in early 2013. Nonetheless, Office Home and Student 2013 RT won’t come with some staple features, including macros, third-party add-ins or VBA (visual basic for applications) support. And Microsoft will reportedly remove other smaller features as well.
If the report proves true, Microsoft’s decision could hurt the deployment of Windows RT tablets in enterprise situations, where users depend on full-featured Office functions. And if Microsoft needs to remove much more from Office RT, leaving it relatively bare-bones, it might also affect whether everyday consumers purchase Windows RT devices, including Surface. Office currently costs as much as $120 to install on a single PC, so having a full version of the suite on Windows RT has been a big selling point of the Windows RT platform.
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/surface-pre-launch-woes-stripped-down-office-2013-and-oem-warnings/
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
If this rumor turns out to actually be true, Microsoft's tablet and phone sales are DOA. The only possible way they can get a foothold in the tablet market at this point is to leverage Office as a unique "advantage" on the platform. It's not a guaranty or success, but it's really their only chance right now. Throwing that away by producing versions for other mobile platforms, would be giving up the fight for Win 8 tablets and phones before it even starts.
Even Microsoft isn't betting that heavy on Office RT with the ARM processor
Nope, turns out I read it right. His claim has been denied by the US office, saying there are no such plans for such a release.
IF they got Office for iOS out by March they might have done okay. Especially if it was school friendly. But they are quickly approaching the land of way way too late to bother on this front.
On their own equipment, Office is running in the Desktop. This is even true with ARM RT tablets, though there is no real Desktop there. If they did this for the iPad, I would have to assume they wouldn't, because they couldn't, do it that way. Apples guidelines must be observed.
We know the Desktop is being depreciated, because Microsoft has said so. The Modern UI (MUI) will be the UI for the future, along with the programming model, which is actually pretty good. But that dang UI is where people are hung up. Right now, I've been running the previews, and spend most of my time in the Desktop. But when that goes away, unless Microsoft makes the MUI much more sophisticated, they will lose their commercial and professional base. Those users require the complexity of "standard" Windows, just as some users here have already been complaining about the iOSification of OS X.
Because, at this point in time, whenever you need to do anything past the more basic operations, you need the Desktop to do it. The MUI is the new Start button, except that it's the entire screen.
I also see a lot of confusion between the "Pro" Win 8 and RT. they look exactly the same right now. So if you have two tablets side by side running the UI, you can't tell them apart. Only when you pick them up and feel the extra half pound or so and extra thickness of the Pro tablets can you tell they are different. But, even then, as we see with different notebooks, they are all different sizes and weights, but run the same Windows OS, so even those differences don't tell us much. The price will say something, but even there, for most uninformed consumers (and aren't most consumers, almost by definition, uninformed?) that won't tell them anything either. They will just buy the cheaper machine.
The fun will start once they get them home.
I agree. Despite those here who think anything Microsoft is a waste of time, Office really is a pretty important piece of software. But they had better do this soon. March is fine. But a lot of users are finding that they don't need office on their tablets because of the apps that give compatability in some way. If they wait too long, those users will find that maybe they don't need Office at all.
After all, most word processing, spreadsheet work, and presentations can be done with Apple's apps now. Remember the old saying about Office, 80% of the users only use 20% of the features. If Apple, or some other company can get those 20% nailed, then those 80% won't need Office (assuming, of course, that they all need that same 20%). So to cover most people, all it really needs is perhaps 30% of the features.
So Office will be great, but not if they wait too long.
Don't forget that none of those features ever made it to the Mac version of Office anyway, but still, Office is very popular with Mac users, especially in the corporate environment.
Originally Posted by melgross
The Modern UI (MUI) will be the UI for the future, along with the programming model, which is actually pretty good. But that dang UI is where people are hung up. But when that goes away, unless Microsoft makes the MUI much more sophisticated, they will lose their commercial and professional base. Those users require the complexity of "standard" Windows, just as some users here have already been complaining about the iOSification of OS X. The price will say something, but even there, for most uninformed consumers (and aren't most consumers, almost by definition, uninformed?) that won't tell them anything either. They will just buy the cheaper machine.
The fun will start once they get them home.
"Metro" was such a funnier better name. Calling it "modern" immediately dates it.
The future doesn't look very bright for Microsoft, should this be the case. They're killing off the old without preparing for the new.
My only concern is that Apple won't be able to keep up with the manufacturing demand for new Macs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
For over a year I had been saying that MS should bring Office to the iPad -- that MS needed to get its feet wet (gain experience) with post-PC devices -- limited resources and the [relatively] stark "in your face" (single window) UI. I thought that this would also help sales of iPads into businesses where Office compatibility was needed.
Now, I'm not so sure! According to reviews I've read, by Peter Bright, Office running on a tablet is not a successful implementation, nor a satisfactory experience. It seems that Microsoft has put a touch interface on the highest levels of the Office apps but the UI quickly degrades when you go deeper into the apps... To the point of being unusable.
So, brilliantly, MS comes up with a strategy of furnishing tablets with keyboards… There are a few Metro touch widgets, but the bread-and-butter apps: i.e. Office -- are unusable without a keyboard and trackpad.
This is just the way Windows and Office have been running on tablets for the last 10 years! It was unusable then, and I suspect it will be just as unusable today.
So why bring this "disaster in the wings" to the iPad?
You might answer: "Because business needs compatibility with the office apps running on their computers. "
But what do you gain if the app (tablet Office) providing compatibility -- is unusable?
Wouldn't you be better off with the designed-for-iPad iWork apps -- and put up with some format and feature compatibilities with Office running on a computer?
iWork running on an iPad will, likely, never be 100 percent compatible with office running on a computer...
But, according to Peter Bright, Office running on Windows RT will never be 100 percent compatible either!
On their own equipment, Office is running in the Desktop. This is even true with ARM RT tablets, though there is no real Desktop there. If they did this for the iPad, I would have to assume they wouldn't, because they couldn't, do it that way. Apples guidelines must be observed.
Excellent point! I hadn't even considered that! So, it isn't only Touch UI issues and missing features like maros -- inaccessable OS features like the File System, Document Sharing, etc. could be insurmountable hurdles to successful implementation on iDevices and possibly Android devices.
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/10/microsofts-czech-unit-reportedly-confirms-office-for-ios-coming-in-march-2013/
Originally Posted by melgross
read the updates at the bottom of the article:
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/10/microsofts-czech-unit-reportedly-confirms-office-for-ios-coming-in-march-2013/
They just really don't like getting their users' hopes up about Office, do they? Second time they've denied it.
HOLY FREAKING COW THE EMOTICONS WORK.
Eh, I've already moved to emoji.
There's an issue that I keep bringing up in various sites that is mostly being ignored.
The Desktop for Win 8 isn't that much different from the Desktop in Win 7, or anything before, other than for the flattening (and amazingly boring, and cheap looking) of all UI elements in Win 8. Otherwise, except for the removal of the start button to the MUI, it's pretty much the same.
Now, for those who used them, or just remember what was written about them, those 13-15.4" convertables that were being sold as Windows tablets for all those years weren't very popular because of three things. One was the price, as they were expensive. More than a standard laptop. Two was because they were big and heavy. Hard to use a "tablet" that weighs 3.5-7 pounds on your arm.
And three was the real biggie! It's almost Impossible to use windows, and its software, with a stylus on a "small" 13-15.4" screen. Note those sizes.
So now what have they come up with? 10.6-11.6" screens! Hey! How are these going to be easier to use? Well, they obviously won't be. So every "tablet" will either come with a keyboard, or will have one available from the manufacturer. You pretty much HAVE to use a keyboard and touchpad with the Desktop. No choice, really. It's almost impossible to go about in any other way.
Anyone here want to use OS X on a 10" screen with your finger, or a stylus? They also need more screen accuracy, to use that stylus with the tiny touch points there are, so a lot of these things will have a resistive layer as well as a capacitive layer. Not because its a great feature the iPad doesn't have, but the extra accuracy of a resistive screen is a requirement.
People will just love all of this, I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Srice
i am stunned by this, but I guess it makes sense -- the MS Office division isn't going to go down with the Windows 8 ship.
Windows 8 is a joke. I would never recommend it to any person. Microsloft Orifice (office tee hee) though? Yes I would recommend that product. I have run Winders 8. Not my first choice for productivity. Winders 8 is like changing the way a car steers. Microsoft basically said we will make the car turn right then you turn the steering wheel left.
Originally Posted by tylerk36
Winders 8 is like changing the way a car steers. Microsoft basically said we will make the car turn right then you turn the steering wheel left.
Darn Microsofties, copying Apple again! Everyone knows Cupertino has a monopoly on "natural ________"!
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
There are ways around this. Office could come as one app, with tappable buttons for the other portions. Besides, what is meant by suites of apps? I have several apps that qualify as suites. You have a main menu, and from that you select which app in the suite you want. You can purchase more apps for the suite as you need.
I'm sure the developer could assign common memory storage for the suite so that figures from a spreadsheet could be used in a word processor or presentation app. Apple chose to not do it that way so that they could sell the suite one at a time. Microsoft may choose differently.
Look up AudioTools for one. That definitely qualifies as a suite.
Yeah, it comes down to "what is a suite?" of course, and depending on how you define it, a "suite" could certainly be fudged into iOS. It would likely not be workable with something as complex as Office is though and would require a rewrite of all the base apps anyway. I am 99% certain that at some point in the process of boiling down all that complexity, that someone would see the simpler, clearer solution of doing separate apps like Apple has instead.
Technically apps can now talk to each other and send things to each other also so the original "ban" on suites of inter-related apps is not quite moot but getting there.
I just don't see Microsoft doing this at all though. It makes no sense for them to make a "proper" touch-enabled Word app for iOS until they can make one for Metro and everything they have shown so far indicates that they are having no luck at all in doing that. Their phone software is capable, and their existing iOS apps are "ok" but there is no excitement there. As I said, I seriously doubt they have the talent to make a "post-PC" Office at all.
Microsoft hasn't made anything (software wise), that would make anyone go "wow" for decades now IMO. They still get the press when they make their announcements, but it's just been one PoS after another since almost Windows XP days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkral
This is great news. I will be buy Office for iPad the day it comes out. The Apple office apps are good, especially Keynote & Pages, but Numbers is just not good enough for a lot of people. It's a very simplified version of Excel. I think that this is a pretty big deal & will result in a lot of sales for Microsoft. What company that is using iPads wouldn't equip their sales people (or whoever they are giving the iPads to) with mobile versions of office? This will be great for Microsoft on the softwre side & great for Apple on the hardware side.
I agree. Despite those here who think anything Microsoft is a waste of time, Office really is a pretty important piece of software. But they had better do this soon. March is fine. But a lot of users are finding that they don't need office on their tablets because of the apps that give compatability in some way. If they wait too long, those users will find that maybe they don't need Office at all.
After all, most word processing, spreadsheet work, and presentations can be done with Apple's apps now. Remember the old saying about Office, 80% of the users only use 20% of the features. If Apple, or some other company can get those 20% nailed, then those 80% won't need Office (assuming, of course, that they all need that same 20%). So to cover most people, all it really needs is perhaps 30% of the features.
So Office will be great, but not if they wait too long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
You may not get what you think you are you are getting... or need!
Web surf for "peter bright office windows rt" and read what an MS proponent thinks...
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/why-bother-the-sad-state-of-office-2013-touch-support/
and this
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/surface-pre-launch-woes-stripped-down-office-2013-and-oem-warnings/
Don't forget that none of those features ever made it to the Mac version of Office anyway, but still, Office is very popular with Mac users, especially in the corporate environmen
I am sure you remember when Word and Excel were introduced on the Original Mac in the mid 1980s -- each app came on a 400 KB (yes, folks that is 400 thousand Bytes) microfloppy disk
Both were well-designed, powerful and efficient apps that set the standard for their time...
Excel, especially, in the hands of an expert, could make the computer sing (and dance)... In those days it was pretty easy to become an expert!
I no-longer use either Word or Excel -- nor do I have dealings with the "power users" who exploit the more esoteric features of these apps.
I suspect that your 80-20 assessment is correct! I guess my questions are:
what real * capabilities has MS added to the basic apps from 1980s?
which of these are capabilities are needed in a Touch Tablet interface?
can they be implemented without destroying the advantages of the Touch Tablet user UX?
* I don't consider nice-to-have feature creep and half/full-screen toolbars as capabilities.
Your point: that the Mac implementation of Office lacked many features of the Windows implementation... but was still an important product -- is a valid point!
It is also likely that iWork on the Mac and the iPad can satisfy many of the needs of Mac Office users.
And, Apple could/should identify and implement the most-needed features in iWork for OS X and iOS. I suspect that Apple has already done this and was/is holding off to "encourage" MS to improve the Mac versions and release iPad versions.
Finally, do you think that MS can provide workable-enough versions of these apps on the iPad... by March 2013?
From what I read, and have seen, I do not think they can -- it may already be too late!