Don's Europeans understand that warranty does not come for free?
That the 2-year warranty comes with a price increase that you must pay whether you want it or not. No wonder that the most common question on consumer goods forums is " Why does this camera (computer, phone) cost so much more in EU than in the USA, even VAT accounted for?". Wouldn't be much better if a consumer decides for himself whether he wants a 2year warranty and pay extra? I guess, the government knows better
Yes, we europeans are too stupid to understand that. Give me a break.
That's what I'm saying. The EU customers have to pay more for many reasons - VAT, customs.. The mandatory 2-year warrant is just another add-on that was put on top of that, you want it or not.
Case in point - Apple Store in the US, Mac Book Air top model $1499, in the UK £1249 or $1998 in $ equivalent. You still want that warranty
You stiil don't seem to understand. The warranty has a negligible impact on the price to the point it does not account for the price difference. Prices were higher in Europe than the US, long before the 2 year warrant legislation was introduced. The main cause of the price difference is manufacturers artificially discounting their prices just for the US market, because they percieve that market wouldn't accept the same prices as in other countries.
Australia doesn't have 2 year warranties. The top model Macbook Air is $1782 there. Those 802D speakers are $26,381 there - way more than double the US price. The length of the warranty has no meaningful bearing on those price differences.
You stiil don't seem to understand. The warranty has a negligible impact on the price to the point it does not account for the price difference. Prices were higher in Europe than the US, long before the 2 year warrant legislation was introduced. The main cause of the price difference is manufacturers artificially discounting their prices just for the US market, because they percieve that market wouldn't accept the same prices as in other countries.
Australia doesn't have 2 year warranties. The top model Macbook Air is $1782 there. Those 802D speakers are $26,381 there - way more than double the US price. The length of the warranty was no meaningful bearing on the price.
Poor naivete. If you still believe that the extra year warranty comes comes for free (or negligible, as you put it), I have the Brooklyn Bridge for sale.
They cost more in Europe 'before' the EU legislation was enacted. The US market is pre-dominated by cheapskates. Many products cost less in the US than even in their home markets. It's got next to nothing to do with the cost of honouring warranties.
A pair of B&W 802D speakers will cost you $12,000 in the US and the £ equivalent of $18,481 in the UK. Sales/Vat tax differences also play a part.
Cheapskates? Really? They sell their products for what the market will pay and price them accordingly to meet their target margin. If Europeans choose to pay more even after all taxes that is their fault.
Cheapskates? Really? They sell their products for what the market will pay and price them accordingly to meet their target margin. If Europeans choose to pay more even after all taxes that is their fault.
Talking about cheapskates...
I know many Londoners who fly to NYC to buy a photo camera. Saves a few bucks even with the air fare on top of the camera price.
This forum remains the same cesspit of misinformation and bigotry as ever.
[quote]EU mandate is 'warranty' by seller, not manufacturer.[/quote]
Nope, any of the parties involved in the sale are equally responsible for honoring the warranty. This is not to mention that Apple is actually a seller here, with fully blown brick ad mortar stores, stores in stores, and online stores. If your products are sold in the EU, you are responsible for respecting EU laws.
[quote]All these complaints are basically that Apple doesn't cater to the lazy and stupid and spell out what those 'in addition to protections provided by local laws' protections mean.[/quote]
Nope, the complaints are about Apple breaking the law, which states that they must explicitly mention the two-year warranty period.
[quote]I say Apple just kill all Apple programs in the EU. Lets see what happens when someone's totally functioning mic in the iPhone they bought at a carrier store fails at 11 months in and local law says they have to prove it wasn't working when they bought it tries to get a free replacement from Apple.[/quote]
Neither Directive 99/44/EC nor any local laws that I'm aware of make such a requirement. Legally, the burden of proof is on the vendor / distributor / manufacturer because the consumer can always argue plausible inability to provide evidence without voiding the warranty. Furthermore, most other vendors / distributors / manufacturers follow the law; Apple is the exception here, not the norm.
[quote]Won't happen but it would have under Apple's voluntary 1 year manufacturer's program. I say they refuse to let folks buy service parts even. Let them buy retail to replace it.[/quote]
It's two years, not one, and as demonstrated above, it wouldn't happen in the 23rd month either, because the responsibility of proving that the mic wasn't damaged by a manufacturing fault is Apple's.
[quote]These warranty laws are BS, and not surprisingly apple has run afoul of this nonsense.[/quote]
Why are they BS or nonsense? Mind to elaborate a little on it and state your logical ground so that I can refute?
[quote]They don't actually ignore it. They follow it to the letter of the law.[/quote]
No, they do not. They are required to explicitly advertise two years of warranty and only advertise one.
[quote]The issue seems to be the confusion around Applecare. Applecare goes above and beyond what the law requires, but they complain as it looks like Apple is telling people they must buy Applecare for coverage.[/quote]
No, it does not. AppleCare does not offer you anything beyond what the voluntary 2-year warranty period already offers. This is actually another issue with the way Apple advertises their warranties, they talk about limited 2-year warranty when AppleCare is just as limited, in an attempt to confuse people into buying something they don't need.
[quote]What they are doing is legal, but they need to make it more obvious to keep these consumer protection organizations from complaining.[/quote]
If it was legal, consumer protection groups would have no legal ground to complain.
[quote]Don's Europeans understand that warranty does not come for free?[/quote]
Theoretically, it does. Warranty only stops being free when things start to break, so it's in the manufacturer's interest to make sure that doesn't happen often, if at all.
[quote]That the 2-year warranty comes with a price increase that you must pay whether you want it or not. No wonder that the most common question on consumer goods forums is " Why does this camera (computer, phone) cost so much more in EU than in the USA, even VAT accounted for?". Wouldn't be much better if a consumer decides for himself whether he wants a 2year warranty and pay extra? I guess, the government knows better [/quote]
Ignorance breeds ignorance. For starters, sellers are required to announce the final price here, VAT included, whereas in the US the price does not include VAT, which varies on a state to state and sometimes city to city basis. Secondly, VAT here is traditionally much higher than in the US, and this has absolutely nothing to do with warranties. Thirdly, consumer electronics have historically always been more expensive in the EU than in the US, even before Directive 99/44/EC.
"Seeing as Apple is so keen to take a 30% cut, maybe they should pay 30% of damages (should it be the case) and the developer 70%"
Apple provides the software to create the app, Apple does the marketing to get customers to come to the online store, which Apple provides for free. Developers can even give away their software; ie 30% of $0.00 = Loss to Apple because they still have fixed costs. Standard retail markup is 100%, so Apple is a good bargain
Don's Europeans understand that warranty does not come for free?
Originally Posted by Vaelian
Theoretically, it does. Warranty only stops being free when things start to break, so it's in the manufacturer's interest to make sure that doesn't happen often, if at all.
Soon you will believe that because KIA cars have 10 year warranty they don't break during the warranty period. Have to disappoint you, they do. The only reason KIA can offer this is because the price of repair is already included in the list price. Exactly the way your 2-year warranted electronics. But, to paraphrase you - ignorance breeds blissfulness.
Do you honestly believe that if Apple could legally offer a 1 year only warranty in the EU then the price would go down?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSteelers
If Europeans choose to pay more even after all taxes that is their fault.
Yes, because everyone in Europe gather around a table to decide on the price of things. Maybe we should all team up and not buy Apple products.
Of course, that's not gonna happen because the other options are PCs and Android.
Clearly no American understands the real reason for the difference between the US and EU price, It's nothing to do with shipping, VAT, import or warranties.
There are more people in Europe than in USA and Canada combined and there are 11 currencies used in Europe.
As Europe has very similar pricing throughout, the price of products have to take into account the highest and lowest currency worth.
The "worth" of a certain currency fluctuates in comparison to all other currencies (Dollar, Yen etc) depending on financial climate.
If the worth of a certain EU currency bombed out totally and (for example) £1000 suddenly equalled $10 then the American company would be selling at a massive loss. They wouldn't store the Euros until the exchange rate was better in case the currency was disbanded or a country went bankrupt (currently quite common in Europe) and the currency was suddenly worth nothing.
Because of these variations of worth, companies have to decide on a safe price. They can't continually vary pricing.
Personally I have no issue paying more than Americans for Apple products. If it's worth the money, people will buy it. Apple products are worth that money.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen
Don's Europeans understand that warranty does not come for free?
That the 2-year warranty comes with a price increase that you must pay whether you want it or not. No wonder that the most common question on consumer goods forums is " Why does this camera (computer, phone) cost so much more in EU than in the USA, even VAT accounted for?". Wouldn't be much better if a consumer decides for himself whether he wants a 2year warranty and pay extra? I guess, the government knows better
Yes, we europeans are too stupid to understand that. Give me a break.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX
Yes, we europeans are too stupid to understand that. Give me a break.
And you still support it. Socialism at its best. Good thing I left Europe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen
That's what I'm saying. The EU customers have to pay more for many reasons - VAT, customs.. The mandatory 2-year warrant is just another add-on that was put on top of that, you want it or not.
Case in point - Apple Store in the US, Mac Book Air top model $1499, in the UK £1249 or $1998 in $ equivalent. You still want that warranty
You stiil don't seem to understand. The warranty has a negligible impact on the price to the point it does not account for the price difference. Prices were higher in Europe than the US, long before the 2 year warrant legislation was introduced. The main cause of the price difference is manufacturers artificially discounting their prices just for the US market, because they percieve that market wouldn't accept the same prices as in other countries.
Australia doesn't have 2 year warranties. The top model Macbook Air is $1782 there. Those 802D speakers are $26,381 there - way more than double the US price. The length of the warranty has no meaningful bearing on those price differences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
You stiil don't seem to understand. The warranty has a negligible impact on the price to the point it does not account for the price difference. Prices were higher in Europe than the US, long before the 2 year warrant legislation was introduced. The main cause of the price difference is manufacturers artificially discounting their prices just for the US market, because they percieve that market wouldn't accept the same prices as in other countries.
Australia doesn't have 2 year warranties. The top model Macbook Air is $1782 there. Those 802D speakers are $26,381 there - way more than double the US price. The length of the warranty was no meaningful bearing on the price.
Poor naivete. If you still believe that the extra year warranty comes comes for free (or negligible, as you put it), I have the Brooklyn Bridge for sale.
Cheapskates? Really? They sell their products for what the market will pay and price them accordingly to meet their target margin. If Europeans choose to pay more even after all taxes that is their fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSteelers
Cheapskates? Really? They sell their products for what the market will pay and price them accordingly to meet their target margin. If Europeans choose to pay more even after all taxes that is their fault.
Talking about cheapskates...
I know many Londoners who fly to NYC to buy a photo camera. Saves a few bucks even with the air fare on top of the camera price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen
Talking about cheapskates...
I know many Londoners who fly to NYC to buy a photo camera. Saves a few bucks even with the air fare on top of the camera price.
That, and there's nothing better than a visit to B&H!
[quote]EU mandate is 'warranty' by seller, not manufacturer.[/quote]
Nope, any of the parties involved in the sale are equally responsible for honoring the warranty. This is not to mention that Apple is actually a seller here, with fully blown brick ad mortar stores, stores in stores, and online stores. If your products are sold in the EU, you are responsible for respecting EU laws.
[quote]All these complaints are basically that Apple doesn't cater to the lazy and stupid and spell out what those 'in addition to protections provided by local laws' protections mean.[/quote]
Nope, the complaints are about Apple breaking the law, which states that they must explicitly mention the two-year warranty period.
[quote]I say Apple just kill all Apple programs in the EU. Lets see what happens when someone's totally functioning mic in the iPhone they bought at a carrier store fails at 11 months in and local law says they have to prove it wasn't working when they bought it tries to get a free replacement from Apple.[/quote]
Neither Directive 99/44/EC nor any local laws that I'm aware of make such a requirement. Legally, the burden of proof is on the vendor / distributor / manufacturer because the consumer can always argue plausible inability to provide evidence without voiding the warranty. Furthermore, most other vendors / distributors / manufacturers follow the law; Apple is the exception here, not the norm.
[quote]Won't happen but it would have under Apple's voluntary 1 year manufacturer's program. I say they refuse to let folks buy service parts even. Let them buy retail to replace it.[/quote]
It's two years, not one, and as demonstrated above, it wouldn't happen in the 23rd month either, because the responsibility of proving that the mic wasn't damaged by a manufacturing fault is Apple's.
[quote]These warranty laws are BS, and not surprisingly apple has run afoul of this nonsense.[/quote]
Why are they BS or nonsense? Mind to elaborate a little on it and state your logical ground so that I can refute?
[quote]They don't actually ignore it. They follow it to the letter of the law.[/quote]
No, they do not. They are required to explicitly advertise two years of warranty and only advertise one.
[quote]The issue seems to be the confusion around Applecare. Applecare goes above and beyond what the law requires, but they complain as it looks like Apple is telling people they must buy Applecare for coverage.[/quote]
No, it does not. AppleCare does not offer you anything beyond what the voluntary 2-year warranty period already offers. This is actually another issue with the way Apple advertises their warranties, they talk about limited 2-year warranty when AppleCare is just as limited, in an attempt to confuse people into buying something they don't need.
[quote]What they are doing is legal, but they need to make it more obvious to keep these consumer protection organizations from complaining.[/quote]
If it was legal, consumer protection groups would have no legal ground to complain.
[quote]Don's Europeans understand that warranty does not come for free?[/quote]
Theoretically, it does. Warranty only stops being free when things start to break, so it's in the manufacturer's interest to make sure that doesn't happen often, if at all.
[quote]That the 2-year warranty comes with a price increase that you must pay whether you want it or not. No wonder that the most common question on consumer goods forums is " Why does this camera (computer, phone) cost so much more in EU than in the USA, even VAT accounted for?". Wouldn't be much better if a consumer decides for himself whether he wants a 2year warranty and pay extra? I guess, the government knows better
Ignorance breeds ignorance. For starters, sellers are required to announce the final price here, VAT included, whereas in the US the price does not include VAT, which varies on a state to state and sometimes city to city basis. Secondly, VAT here is traditionally much higher than in the US, and this has absolutely nothing to do with warranties. Thirdly, consumer electronics have historically always been more expensive in the EU than in the US, even before Directive 99/44/EC.
Apple provides the software to create the app, Apple does the marketing to get customers to come to the online store, which Apple provides for free. Developers can even give away their software; ie 30% of $0.00 = Loss to Apple because they still have fixed costs. Standard retail markup is 100%, so Apple is a good bargain
Cheers !
Quote:
Don's Europeans understand that warranty does not come for free?
Originally Posted by Vaelian
Theoretically, it does. Warranty only stops being free when things start to break, so it's in the manufacturer's interest to make sure that doesn't happen often, if at all.
Soon you will believe that because KIA cars have 10 year warranty they don't break during the warranty period. Have to disappoint you, they do. The only reason KIA can offer this is because the price of repair is already included in the list price. Exactly the way your 2-year warranted electronics. But, to paraphrase you - ignorance breeds blissfulness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
So Apple honored the warranty. Therefore your claims that they are breaking the law are false.
and you are purposefully acting like someone having trouble using his brain, troll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen
You still want that warranty
Do you honestly believe that if Apple could legally offer a 1 year only warranty in the EU then the price would go down?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSteelers
If Europeans choose to pay more even after all taxes that is their fault.
Yes, because everyone in Europe gather around a table to decide on the price of things. Maybe we should all team up and not buy Apple products.
Of course, that's not gonna happen because the other options are PCs and Android.
Clearly no American understands the real reason for the difference between the US and EU price, It's nothing to do with shipping, VAT, import or warranties.
There are more people in Europe than in USA and Canada combined and there are 11 currencies used in Europe.
As Europe has very similar pricing throughout, the price of products have to take into account the highest and lowest currency worth.
The "worth" of a certain currency fluctuates in comparison to all other currencies (Dollar, Yen etc) depending on financial climate.
If the worth of a certain EU currency bombed out totally and (for example) £1000 suddenly equalled $10 then the American company would be selling at a massive loss. They wouldn't store the Euros until the exchange rate was better in case the currency was disbanded or a country went bankrupt (currently quite common in Europe) and the currency was suddenly worth nothing.
Because of these variations of worth, companies have to decide on a safe price. They can't continually vary pricing.
Personally I have no issue paying more than Americans for Apple products. If it's worth the money, people will buy it. Apple products are worth that money.