A desktop can be very revolutionary. Look how the iMac evolved in it's first six years. Laptops are good for some but not all. I don't know why others haven't moved to a competitor but the reason I haven't moved is because I would like to stay on the Mac OS. I am not staying because I like their desktop line up.
So why aren't you complaining about how the laptops "aren't revolutionary"? Your repeated cries about the desktops are patently (literally!) false, and they're obviously based in some erroneous thinking somewhere, so I figure you'd have the same complaint with the laptop lineup.
That's easy for you to say, if you don't have any skin in the game. I don't have any skin in the game right now at the moment either, but this is not good for Apple or for those people who invest their hard earned money in that company. Most people aren't Al Gore, who gets to buy their shares at around $7.
Actually, if you are an actual investor instead of a speculator or day trader then the current stock moves likely have no impact at all. I have a lot of skin in on AAPL, but I consider it a 5-10 year investment. If I actually see a problem with the fundamentals, I'll bail out but trying to guess when the stock is going to move a few dollars one way or the other is a fool's errand.
So why aren't you complaining about how the laptops "aren't revolutionary"?
I figure you'd have the same complaint with the laptop lineup.
No, I don't have any complaints about the laptop line because it has been revolutionized recently. The MacBook Air was a revolutionary design that replaced the MacBook only about two years ago. Many people are using the iPad and iPad Mini as a laptop replacements and that is a revolutionary design that is only about there years old. That's two revolutionary designs to the laptop line in three years. I'd say that is pretty good. People in the other forum were calling me an "Apple hater" which couldn't be any further from the truth. I like a lot of their non desktop products. I am just not a delusional fan boy that heaps praise on anything with an Apple logo on it. btw what happened to that comment someone posted about you being the biggest troll on AI? It was getting tons of likes and then it just disappeared just like that... *poof*.
A desktop can be very revolutionary. Look how the iMac evolved in it's first six years. Laptops are good for some but not all. I don't know why others haven't moved to a competitor but the reason I haven't moved is because I would like to stay on the Mac OS. I am not staying because I like their desktop line up.
Yeah and the iMac evolved when it became thinner with the LCD tech. The just made the iMac even thinner and you're complaining. They fit a friggin computer in an LCD screen for Lord's sake. What would be the next revolution? Don't say that's Apple's job because that is such a copout.
So to sum it up, if Apple can't leverage it's domination on carrier subsidy with strong demand for iPhones, then carriers will do away with subsidies, and will most likely either 1) Stop selling the iPhone, and let Apple sell it themselves or 2) The bulk order of iPhones will be at a much lesser price than Apple is currently demanding
Margins will go down, and Margins is basically what has kept Apple insanely profitable.
Your premise is absolutely right, but your conclusion is ridiculously false. If there isn't strong demand for iPhones, then carriers will not accept subsidizing the iPhone. But if that ever came true, it's not margins that will go down but sales.
Of course, demand for the iPhone isn't going down. It's going up. Do you think Verizon or AT&T or any other major mobile operator is going to give up carrying the iPhone. The iPhone accounted for 84% of smartphone activations on AT&T and 62% on Verizon. Would you advise either of them to stop offering the iPhone?
That's easy for you to say, if you don't have any skin in the game. I don't have any skin in the game right now at the moment either, but this is not good for Apple or for those people who invest their hard earned money in that company. Most people aren't Al Gore, who gets to buy their shares at around $7.
You too could have bought it at $7 at the time that Gore (and other directors and employees -- some of whom are, I am sure, even right-wing fanatics like you) got his at-the-money for providing his services to the company.
Yeah and the iMac evolved when it became thinner with the LCD tech. The just made the iMac even thinner and you're complaining. They fit a friggin computer in an LCD screen for Lord's sake. What would be the next revolution? Don't say that's Apple's job because that is such a copout.
We have already been discussing what the next revolution could be if you have been reading the forum. Of course I am complaining about a thinner iMac screen. Thin is not the most important attribute of a desktop. The same complaint can be said of the Mini.
The second greatest advice my father ever gave me was: You never make or lose money in the stock market until you sell.
Of course, dividends are an exception but the general rules of thumb always have caveats. Think of the stock market as Schrödinger's Investment. You don't know if you'll ultimately make or lose money on an investment until you decide to cash out.
What's the greatest? And why isn't that on your tagline?
No, I don't have any complaints about the laptop line because it has been revolutionized recently.
Can you explain to me why revolutionizing product categories is something only expected of Apple? Why don't I hear "HP should be revolutionizing the desktop."? I mean, sure, you can argue that the current iMac design is just evolutionary from the G5 version released in 2004 (which I don't agree with) but you would think that the vendors which make up 90% of the desktop market should have more responsibility to produce revolutionary design than the 10% market share holder.
So Apple now is expected to reinvent the smartphone, tablet, laptop, and desktop segments on an annual basis. Otherwise their stock will take a beating!
As I mentioned in another thread, dividends never do that. All they do is to burst the speculation bubble, because once you start giving out dividends, people start caring about actual profit. Microsoft made the same mistake and Jobs knew this, but Cook is only now learning it the hard way.
You are exactly right. It attracts a completely new clientele, namely, 'value' or 'income' funds (whose charter does not typically allow them to buy non-dividend-paying stocks). Once they get into the game, they simply start pulling you relentlessly in the direction of "want more dividends, want more dividends, want more dividends.....". In the meantime, your previous clientele -- growth funds -- didn't want that in the first place. So you end up with shareholders at war with themselves and a schizophrenic stock.
That is why some of us bemoaned the decision to initiate dividends. A share repurchase would have been so much better. Indeed, that's Apple needs to do now to change the market's mindset.
Short of that (or some mind-boggling, world-changing product announcement), except a long, sideways winter......
you do realize APPL has 85% of ATT 65% of Verizon 60% of sprint, right?
They wouldn't dare. In fact, it the rumor comes that verizon will do it, Apple just needs to ask for a much bigger deal (all iphones free on contract) otherwise they stop selling iPhones to verizon and they disappear 1 year later. You just can't piss off Apple right now.
It depends - it will be an all or nothing thing. They are going to see how subsidy-free phones sell on T-Mobile. I wouldn't bet on it happening either, at least until each of the carriers has higher smartphone penetration. I could see them cutting subsidies and then lowering the monthly bills somewhat. If one does it, they'll get hammered. If they all do it, then Apple's the one that's screwed.
total BS.....Apple as lost its growth potentiel ......
Total BS.
Originally Posted by herbapou
What Apple should have done is rise the dividend to support the stock until they can announce new products or prove they can still get there thing back together. They can double the div and still continu to pile up cash. Or maybe they know they are going down and just want to keep all the cash in, which means the company is now dead meat.
On the contrary, the valuation is the objective part of the price. All stocks are worth what they can output in profits then distribute on dividends. Currently the market average PE on valuation stocks is 15 because interest rate are so low. At 15 PE youre typical value stock will pay 3% to 5% yields.
you would think that the vendors which make up 90% of the desktop market should have more responsibility to produce revolutionary design than the 10% market share holder.
So Apple now is expected to reinvent the smartphone, tablet, laptop, and desktop segments on an annual basis. Otherwise their stock will take a beating!
Yes, the PC market does have a very wide range of desktops to pick from which might explain a lot of the reason behind their 97% market share. I don't think that phones, tablets, and laptops should be radically changed every year since the goal for mobile devices should be to have them be very thin. That is not the main goal of desktops.
No, I don't have any complaints about the laptop line because it has been revolutionized recently.
So has the desktop lineup. Argument completely over.
Many people are using the iPad and iPad Mini as a laptop replacements and that is a revolutionary design that is only about there years old. That's two revolutionary designs to the laptop line in three years.
*BZZT* Tablets aren't laptops. They're also not desktops. But they're the successor to both.
I am just not a delusional fan boy that heaps praise on anything with an Apple logo on it.
I don't remember anyone heaping praise on the Mac Pro recently.
It was getting tons of likes and then it just disappeared just like that... *poof*.
Two "likes". One from YOU, the other from another user whose opinion is perpetually anti-Apple, but who, had he read your post, would have disagreed with its measure himself. If this is 'tons' to you, much less indicative of any actual support in the measure, I find that funny.
Having flat growth is not the same as being without profit. YoY when you adjust for the week difference Apple's profit growth is around 10%. For a company that makes more profit in a quarter than most companies make in revenue a year near 3x what Amazon has made in profit over its entire life as a company that's really quite remarkable. I have no idea how people expect a company as large as Apple to continue to do 20% growth YoY. That is not sustainable but they can still make billions more in profit per year which more than I can say for many of those other companies people believe in.
Also, looking at quarter-to-quarter between years says very little, except to investors who have horizons that rival that of gnats. It you look at annual rates of growth, Apple has been on a superb trajectory. Obviously that will slow (a process that has perhaps started) down over time, but it's still quite impressive, and (as many have pointed) even at those reduced levels, supports a much, much higher stock price.
Heck, look at Google's growth: it's CAGR in the past few years is lower than that of Apple's, yet, it's P/E is twice as high. AMZN? Let's not even go there....
It's going to take a lot more than one little positive story about an iMac, IMO. There have been 1,000 negative stories and BS in the past months, so we need a bunch more positive stories coming out.
I'd like to see Apple release a press release next week announcing the China Mobile deal. I'd like to see Apple announcing some brand new product within the next few months that not a single person here knows about. Something totally new and unexpected. I'd like to see Apple being more forceful and countering a lot of the BS that gets written by trashy media outlets. Basically, there are a lot of things that I'd like to see, but we'll see what happens.
I don't think they need a whole new product category like iPod, iPhone, or iPad. A major redesigned iPhone might be good. But what I really want to see is a very impressive iOS 7. I think iOS hasn't changed much and badly needs a big refresh to blow away Android OS. Rethink the notification center, rethink how to move and organize apps, more integration with Siri and mapping applications. More hooks into the core functionality so apps can greatly enhance the power of the phone. Apple can make iOS devices much more flexible and capable without completely going to the free-for-all model of Android and Google Play.
Comments
For speakers of a Romance language, the past participle is often used as a noun: "miscreado" = "miscreant."
You also miscorrected "herd" above. Cut the ESL person some slack.
Originally Posted by pik80
A desktop can be very revolutionary. Look how the iMac evolved in it's first six years. Laptops are good for some but not all. I don't know why others haven't moved to a competitor but the reason I haven't moved is because I would like to stay on the Mac OS. I am not staying because I like their desktop line up.
So why aren't you complaining about how the laptops "aren't revolutionary"? Your repeated cries about the desktops are patently (literally!) false, and they're obviously based in some erroneous thinking somewhere, so I figure you'd have the same complaint with the laptop lineup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
That's easy for you to say, if you don't have any skin in the game. I don't have any skin in the game right now at the moment either, but this is not good for Apple or for those people who invest their hard earned money in that company. Most people aren't Al Gore, who gets to buy their shares at around $7.
Actually, if you are an actual investor instead of a speculator or day trader then the current stock moves likely have no impact at all. I have a lot of skin in on AAPL, but I consider it a 5-10 year investment. If I actually see a problem with the fundamentals, I'll bail out but trying to guess when the stock is going to move a few dollars one way or the other is a fool's errand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So why aren't you complaining about how the laptops "aren't revolutionary"?
I figure you'd have the same complaint with the laptop lineup.
No, I don't have any complaints about the laptop line because it has been revolutionized recently. The MacBook Air was a revolutionary design that replaced the MacBook only about two years ago. Many people are using the iPad and iPad Mini as a laptop replacements and that is a revolutionary design that is only about there years old. That's two revolutionary designs to the laptop line in three years. I'd say that is pretty good. People in the other forum were calling me an "Apple hater" which couldn't be any further from the truth. I like a lot of their non desktop products. I am just not a delusional fan boy that heaps praise on anything with an Apple logo on it. btw what happened to that comment someone posted about you being the biggest troll on AI? It was getting tons of likes and then it just disappeared just like that... *poof*.
Yeah and the iMac evolved when it became thinner with the LCD tech. The just made the iMac even thinner and you're complaining. They fit a friggin computer in an LCD screen for Lord's sake. What would be the next revolution? Don't say that's Apple's job because that is such a copout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrodriguez
So to sum it up, if Apple can't leverage it's domination on carrier subsidy with strong demand for iPhones, then carriers will do away with subsidies, and will most likely either 1) Stop selling the iPhone, and let Apple sell it themselves or 2) The bulk order of iPhones will be at a much lesser price than Apple is currently demanding
Margins will go down, and Margins is basically what has kept Apple insanely profitable.
Your premise is absolutely right, but your conclusion is ridiculously false. If there isn't strong demand for iPhones, then carriers will not accept subsidizing the iPhone. But if that ever came true, it's not margins that will go down but sales.
Of course, demand for the iPhone isn't going down. It's going up. Do you think Verizon or AT&T or any other major mobile operator is going to give up carrying the iPhone. The iPhone accounted for 84% of smartphone activations on AT&T and 62% on Verizon. Would you advise either of them to stop offering the iPhone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
That's easy for you to say, if you don't have any skin in the game. I don't have any skin in the game right now at the moment either, but this is not good for Apple or for those people who invest their hard earned money in that company. Most people aren't Al Gore, who gets to buy their shares at around $7.
You too could have bought it at $7 at the time that Gore (and other directors and employees -- some of whom are, I am sure, even right-wing fanatics like you) got his at-the-money for providing his services to the company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
Yeah and the iMac evolved when it became thinner with the LCD tech. The just made the iMac even thinner and you're complaining. They fit a friggin computer in an LCD screen for Lord's sake. What would be the next revolution? Don't say that's Apple's job because that is such a copout.
We have already been discussing what the next revolution could be if you have been reading the forum. Of course I am complaining about a thinner iMac screen. Thin is not the most important attribute of a desktop. The same complaint can be said of the Mini.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
The second greatest advice my father ever gave me was: You never make or lose money in the stock market until you sell.
Of course, dividends are an exception but the general rules of thumb always have caveats. Think of the stock market as Schrödinger's Investment. You don't know if you'll ultimately make or lose money on an investment until you decide to cash out.
What's the greatest? And why isn't that on your tagline?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pik80
No, I don't have any complaints about the laptop line because it has been revolutionized recently.
Can you explain to me why revolutionizing product categories is something only expected of Apple? Why don't I hear "HP should be revolutionizing the desktop."? I mean, sure, you can argue that the current iMac design is just evolutionary from the G5 version released in 2004 (which I don't agree with) but you would think that the vendors which make up 90% of the desktop market should have more responsibility to produce revolutionary design than the 10% market share holder.
So Apple now is expected to reinvent the smartphone, tablet, laptop, and desktop segments on an annual basis. Otherwise their stock will take a beating!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
As I mentioned in another thread, dividends never do that. All they do is to burst the speculation bubble, because once you start giving out dividends, people start caring about actual profit. Microsoft made the same mistake and Jobs knew this, but Cook is only now learning it the hard way.
You are exactly right. It attracts a completely new clientele, namely, 'value' or 'income' funds (whose charter does not typically allow them to buy non-dividend-paying stocks). Once they get into the game, they simply start pulling you relentlessly in the direction of "want more dividends, want more dividends, want more dividends.....". In the meantime, your previous clientele -- growth funds -- didn't want that in the first place. So you end up with shareholders at war with themselves and a schizophrenic stock.
That is why some of us bemoaned the decision to initiate dividends. A share repurchase would have been so much better. Indeed, that's Apple needs to do now to change the market's mindset.
Short of that (or some mind-boggling, world-changing product announcement), except a long, sideways winter......
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins
you do realize APPL has 85% of ATT 65% of Verizon 60% of sprint, right?
They wouldn't dare. In fact, it the rumor comes that verizon will do it, Apple just needs to ask for a much bigger deal (all iphones free on contract) otherwise they stop selling iPhones to verizon and they disappear 1 year later. You just can't piss off Apple right now.
It depends - it will be an all or nothing thing. They are going to see how subsidy-free phones sell on T-Mobile. I wouldn't bet on it happening either, at least until each of the carriers has higher smartphone penetration. I could see them cutting subsidies and then lowering the monthly bills somewhat. If one does it, they'll get hammered. If they all do it, then Apple's the one that's screwed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou
total BS.....Apple as lost its growth potentiel ......
Total BS.
Originally Posted by herbapou
What Apple should have done is rise the dividend to support the stock until they can announce new products or prove they can still get there thing back together. They can double the div and still continu to pile up cash. Or maybe they know they are going down and just want to keep all the cash in, which means the company is now dead meat.
What did I tell you? (See Post #63 above)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
The third greatest advice he told me was: "The stock market is run two emotions: fear and greed."
Actually, there's a third one that very few people seem to mention: impatience (i.e., we always want our $$ sooner than later).
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou
On the contrary, the valuation is the objective part of the price. All stocks are worth what they can output in profits then distribute on dividends. Currently the market average PE on valuation stocks is 15 because interest rate are so low. At 15 PE youre typical value stock will pay 3% to 5% yields.
Groan.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher
you would think that the vendors which make up 90% of the desktop market should have more responsibility to produce revolutionary design than the 10% market share holder.
So Apple now is expected to reinvent the smartphone, tablet, laptop, and desktop segments on an annual basis. Otherwise their stock will take a beating!
Yes, the PC market does have a very wide range of desktops to pick from which might explain a lot of the reason behind their 97% market share. I don't think that phones, tablets, and laptops should be radically changed every year since the goal for mobile devices should be to have them be very thin. That is not the main goal of desktops.
Originally Posted by pik80
No, I don't have any complaints about the laptop line because it has been revolutionized recently.
So has the desktop lineup. Argument completely over.
Many people are using the iPad and iPad Mini as a laptop replacements and that is a revolutionary design that is only about there years old. That's two revolutionary designs to the laptop line in three years.
*BZZT* Tablets aren't laptops. They're also not desktops. But they're the successor to both.
I am just not a delusional fan boy that heaps praise on anything with an Apple logo on it.
I don't remember anyone heaping praise on the Mac Pro recently.
It was getting tons of likes and then it just disappeared just like that... *poof*.
Two "likes". One from YOU, the other from another user whose opinion is perpetually anti-Apple, but who, had he read your post, would have disagreed with its measure himself. If this is 'tons' to you, much less indicative of any actual support in the measure, I find that funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Having flat growth is not the same as being without profit. YoY when you adjust for the week difference Apple's profit growth is around 10%. For a company that makes more profit in a quarter than most companies make in revenue a year near 3x what Amazon has made in profit over its entire life as a company that's really quite remarkable. I have no idea how people expect a company as large as Apple to continue to do 20% growth YoY. That is not sustainable but they can still make billions more in profit per year which more than I can say for many of those other companies people believe in.
Also, looking at quarter-to-quarter between years says very little, except to investors who have horizons that rival that of gnats. It you look at annual rates of growth, Apple has been on a superb trajectory. Obviously that will slow (a process that has perhaps started) down over time, but it's still quite impressive, and (as many have pointed) even at those reduced levels, supports a much, much higher stock price.
Heck, look at Google's growth: it's CAGR in the past few years is lower than that of Apple's, yet, it's P/E is twice as high. AMZN? Let's not even go there....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
It's going to take a lot more than one little positive story about an iMac, IMO. There have been 1,000 negative stories and BS in the past months, so we need a bunch more positive stories coming out.
I'd like to see Apple release a press release next week announcing the China Mobile deal. I'd like to see Apple announcing some brand new product within the next few months that not a single person here knows about. Something totally new and unexpected. I'd like to see Apple being more forceful and countering a lot of the BS that gets written by trashy media outlets. Basically, there are a lot of things that I'd like to see, but we'll see what happens.
I don't think they need a whole new product category like iPod, iPhone, or iPad. A major redesigned iPhone might be good. But what I really want to see is a very impressive iOS 7. I think iOS hasn't changed much and badly needs a big refresh to blow away Android OS. Rethink the notification center, rethink how to move and organize apps, more integration with Siri and mapping applications. More hooks into the core functionality so apps can greatly enhance the power of the phone. Apple can make iOS devices much more flexible and capable without completely going to the free-for-all model of Android and Google Play.
I actually ended up just increasing my INTC holdings for now. I'll revisit AAPL when it shows a bit more stability.