So what problem does Steambox solve? What is Valve trying to prove?
That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
I don't expect Apple to produce a dedicated game console, or bring console-style gaming to the AppleTV. However, their current product lines already satisfy much of the potential market growth.
The casual gaming market is definitely a big market but there will always be a desire to play certain types of games. Take the following movie for example:
[VIDEO]
It has characters, it tells a story, it has nice visuals. For a game to replicate that experience, it's in the category of serious/hardcore games. People will always want that immersion. The market for repetitive, dumbed down games is huge and they appeal to a lot of people but it has to wear out. I know people still watch a lot of poor TV shows but where can casual games really go?
I think we'll see lesser demand for dedicated devices just like with the iPod but developers will probably bring more mature titles to the wider audiences and I'd like to see Apple being more active in bringing it about.
I can see this happening once they get the next PowerVR GPUs in there with OpenGL ES 3. Developers one day soon will be able to deploy games to all the platforms at once but the price expectations in the App Store are going to have to go up. Square Enix has already tried this with their games:
For a full AAA game title, I'd say $15-20 is a good target. They have to keep in mind that every game purchase is a new sale and there is no resale possible and the userbase is much bigger so they don't need to be as expensive as the console games.
That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
The casual gaming market is definitely a big market but there will always be a desire to play certain types of games. Take the following movie for example:
[VIDEO]
It has characters, it tells a story, it has nice visuals. For a game to replicate that experience, it's in the category of serious/hardcore games. People will always want that immersion. The market for repetitive, dumbed down games is huge and they appeal to a lot of people but it has to wear out. I know people still watch a lot of poor TV shows but where can casual games really go?
I think we'll see lesser demand for dedicated devices just like with the iPod but developers will probably bring more mature titles to the wider audiences and I'd like to see Apple being more active in bringing it about.
I can see this happening once they get the next PowerVR GPUs in there with OpenGL ES 3. Developers one day soon will be able to deploy games to all the platforms at once but the price expectations in the App Store are going to have to go up. Square Enix has already tried this with their games:
For a full AAA game title, I'd say $15-20 is a good target. They have to keep in mind that every game purchase is a new sale and there is no resale possible and the userbase is much bigger so they don't need to be as expensive as the console games.
That was really great little flick.
Yeah, Angry Birds and likes are great quick time-killers, and people can accumulate a lot of time playing them in small doses. But.
Playing game like, for example, Uncharted franchise... is like having a part in interactive Indiana Jones movie. All 3 games have great stories, great likeable characters, excellent voice acting, cut scenes, music, top notch visuals with beautifully recreated locations and variety in gameplay - tactical 3rd person shooting, brawler, platforming, puzzle solving, occasional on-rail sequence, even an odd driving/horse riding sequences. Stories are based on history and legends, with a fiction twist (Sir Francis Drake, Incas, Shambala...). It is completely different experience than shooting birds, cutting ropes and landing aeroplanes.
Can it be done on phone/tablet? Technically, yes. Uncharted: Golden Abyss on PS Vita, much as I have seen, doesn't trail much behind PS3 Uncharted titles in terms of visuals etc., and Vita is on hardware comparable to iPhone/iPad. However, there are couple of problems at present, much as I can see them:
1. Storage/distribution. PS3 titles are coming on BD that seem to be filled decently for AAA games. Idea of downloading 20GB + of data and transferring/keeping that on tablet/phone is a bit over the top, even on 64GB devices. As storage grows, maybe... but not just yet. Granted, Vita games are smaller - even Vita's Uncharted is around 3GB, probably stripped off cinematics, compared to PS3 titles... but we are talking about replacing consoles in living rooms, not portables.
2. Controls. Most AAA action games have reasonably complex control scheme. I'd say over 10 separate controls: stick for moving, stick for turning around, directional pad (4 keys, basically) for selecting items and weapons, front sholder keys for shooting, aiming, throwing explosive devices, melee combat, plus keys for jump, duck, stick/unstick to cover, "use" key. Then, general controls for map, pause/calling menu... unless someone comes up with standardised control attachment for phone/tablet, how are you going to simulate all that when only thumbs are free, and are controls going to be even remotely accurate to replace physical controls?
3. Audience. Yes iPad and iPhone have larger user base than consoles. However, most if not all buy consoles for games, so creator of good AAA title can in theory hope that every console owner can be interested in new game. Of tablet/phone users, primary motive for purchase is not gaming. How many users would be interested in complex AAA game, and how many of them will be willing to pay price much chunkier than average iGame, even for just $20? At the end, number of sold copies on iDevice, regardless of user base, could end up being lower than on console, making $20 price completely unsustainable to cover development and other expenses.
Fishstick... I think what Newell is about is computers for geeks. Bring back the complexity in the PC and Windows (and Linux) worlds. 'Computers aren't for the rest of us'. That, I think is why he seems to hate Apple. It has been easy for guys like this to whip up hatred against those who try to make computers useful for the rest of society, not just tools for geeks and business.
Could this be the same Gabe Newell who I am corresponding with on YouTube over a video comparing Dennis Ritchie with Steve Jobs:
and I had to correct the lies:
Ian Joyner 7 months ago
Well, Ritchie invented C which put computers back in the hands of geeks. Jobs fought geeks and 'engineers' to make computers useful for all. Jobs really got it, and that is? his legacy.
Gabe Newell 1 week ago
Back in the hands of geeks? You're an ignorant ****. The first Apple operating system was? written on a Unix kernel. What was the Unix kernel written in? C. Without Dennis Ritchie, Steve Jobs would have died unknown.
in reply to Ian Joyner
Ian Joyner 1 week ago
Yes, a really intelligent reply. Suggest you research the history. Apple was a very successful company without Unix and developed the Mac without Unix. Jobs would have been known without Unix. There is a long Apple history before 1997 when Unix came along. Check it out - especially before you use such ignorant language.
C is a terrible language, so full of holes - C++ much? worse. They are geared towards 'computers' rather than 'computing' so are not based on a solid computational model.
Reply · in reply to Gabe Newell
Gabe Newell 2 hours ago
"C is a terrible? language" -Ian Joyner, 2013.
Without C, you wouldn't have any of your shitty HLLs.
Ian Joyner 18 minutes ago
Gabe you show total ignorance of computing history. The original HLLs were COBOL and FORTRAN. These weren't particularly good, so ALGOL was developed in 1958 then 1960 as a wonderful achievement. LISP was also developed in 1958 - another wonderful achievement except all the '()'s and IBM CAR, CDR operators silly.
C was a retrograde step to dumb down HLLs and put? back in terrible assembler features that ALGOL carefully avoided.
Do some research beyond the C world. It's out there.
------------------------------------------
I followed his name and he had posted videos of computer games. The one I looked at was completely tasteless of the player chasing after animals to shoot them. If it's the same Gabe Newell, I wouldn't trust anything he says - he's living in a completely fabricated world with C and Unix being the beginning of all history.
That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
I don't think Valve is going after casual gamers, which is why I don't get why he feels threatened by Apple. Valve is targeting "mainstream gamers." Say, people who would play Half-Life, Portal, Skyrim, or Guild Wars. Gamers probably have a console and/or a Windows PC for gaming. The Xbox 360 is all but the de facto standard console for 3rd party (independent) titles. If Steambox is supposed to be a gaming appliance that connects to an HDTV, then I'd say it's intended to complete against consoles. It would also explain why Gabe feels competition from Apple, since Apple has several devices that can display HD game content on a TV (namely the iPod Touch and iPad via AirPlay). But if Steambox is going head-to-head with Xbox, PS3, and Wii, I don't see what Linux brings to that fight. Maybe it's the lowest hanging branch on the OS tree.
I think the YouTube v. Cinematic Films are great example. A $150 million dollar sci-fi/action movie might be all the talk but YouTube and Vevo will get a lot more views (Gangnam Style has 1.25 billion views on YouTube. Consider the ad revenue from that many views on that single video compared to the risk of investing in a huge blockbuster film).
I hate to say this but the future isn't more of these huge investments in entertainment but a lot more smaller operations that will then be expanded if they become a hit.
We are already seeing this yes. But I'm confident that 'big' productions will still be made a lot.
That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
The casual gaming market is definitely a big market but there will always be a desire to play certain types of games. Take the following movie for example:
It has characters, it tells a story, it has nice visuals. For a game to replicate that experience, it's in the category of serious/hardcore games. People will always want that immersion. The market for repetitive, dumbed down games is huge and they appeal to a lot of people but it has to wear out. I know people still watch a lot of poor TV shows but where can casual games really go?
I think we'll see lesser demand for dedicated devices just like with the iPod but developers will probably bring more mature titles to the wider audiences and I'd like to see Apple being more active in bringing it about.
I can see this happening once they get the next PowerVR GPUs in there with OpenGL ES 3. Developers one day soon will be able to deploy games to all the platforms at once but the price expectations in the App Store are going to have to go up. Square Enix has already tried this with their games:
For a full AAA game title, I'd say $15-20 is a good target. They have to keep in mind that every game purchase is a new sale and there is no resale possible and the userbase is much bigger so they don't need to be as expensive as the console games.
Great video! And yes, not anybody can achieve that quality. And more money doesn't mean good either of course. This small video is better than the entire series of Transformers imo.
This is just another video game bubble waiting to burst.
Fishstick... I think what Newell is about is computers for geeks. Bring back the complexity in the PC and Windows (and Linux) worlds. 'Computers aren't for the rest of us'. That, I think is why he seems to hate Apple. It has been easy for guys like this to whip up hatred against those who try to make computers useful for the rest of society, not just tools for geeks and business.
Trying to make computers work for geeks and novices alike left everyone not completely satisfied. My hope is that the iPad can satisfy the computing needs of non-geeks and, if anything, enable computers to become *more* geeky again.
Playing game like, for example, Uncharted franchise... is like having a part in interactive Indiana Jones movie. All 3 games have great stories, great likeable characters, excellent voice acting, cut scenes, music, top notch visuals with beautifully recreated locations and variety in gameplay - tactical 3rd person shooting, brawler, platforming, puzzle solving, occasional on-rail sequence, even an odd driving/horse riding sequences. Stories are based on history and legends, with a fiction twist (Sir Francis Drake, Incas, Shambala...). It is completely different experience than shooting birds, cutting ropes and landing aeroplanes.
Yeah the variety in the games is important. The following videos show how varied the scenes, characters and gameplay can be between higher-end titles:
1. Storage/distribution. PS3 titles are coming on BD that seem to be filled decently for AAA games. Idea of downloading 20GB + of data and transferring/keeping that on tablet/phone is a bit over the top, even on 64GB devices.
Sizes are increasing more in the desktop market. Max Payne 3 is around 30GB on Steam. Most games tend to be around the 10GB mark but it is an issue. Deus Ex Human Revolution is under 9GB and is a reasonable size they could aim for. The XBox 360 still uses DVDs and although some games have to ship on two discs, I reckon it would work for most games. It's still a bit tight on portable device as you might only get one game on the 16GB units at a time.
One way they get round this in the App Store already is splitting the game, which is easier with digital downloads. Riven for the iPad is one of the bigger titles and they got away with 1.8GB:
2. Controls. Most AAA action games have reasonably complex control scheme. I'd say over 10 separate controls... how are you going to simulate all that when only thumbs are free, and are controls going to be even remotely accurate to replace physical controls?
I think they can overcome this largely by just having shoulder buttons or touch on the back or sides. It's really about simultaneous inputs rather than how many total. Contollers let you have 6 simultaneous inputs. The touch screens only really give you two when you hold the device so the first two fingers of each hand need to be put to use on the back or sides of the device. Context controls and motion gestures can make up for a lot of the others.
3. Audience. Yes iPad and iPhone have larger user base than consoles. However, most if not all buy consoles for games, so creator of good AAA title can in theory hope that every console owner can be interested in new game. Of tablet/phone users, primary motive for purchase is not gaming. How many users would be interested in complex AAA game, and how many of them will be willing to pay price much chunkier than average iGame, even for just $20? At the end, number of sold copies on iDevice, regardless of user base, could end up being lower than on console, making $20 price completely unsustainable to cover development and other expenses.
That's what happened with Nintendo. When Sony dropped the first Playstation into the market, they made a clear statement that it was for older players and they've massively outsold Nintendo with the PS 1 and 2. They didn't do so well with the PS3 so hopefully they've learned from it - the failure from the big consoles now is mostly lack of titles and price. They have something coming soon but they haven't clarified what it is:
[VIDEO]
Apple has sort of let the market decide but all that ever seems to make it into the charts are games like actual Tetris. Imagine if Tetris was in the top 10 charts for the PS3. They at least put up a section for collections and in the Big Name games, they have a good list of higher quality titles.
Fifa 13, Rayman, GTA Vice City, NFS: Most Wanted, Dead Space, The Sims, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Lego Harry potter, Mirror's Edge, Soul Caliber, Tomb Raider Guardian of Light.
A few are still watered down and most are older games but they are creeping in. I wish they'd keep coming and it wasn't the same list but maybe we'll see more once mobile OpenGL has feature parity with desktop OpenGL.
Part of it seems to be the open hardware model. Apple software only runs on Apple hardware. The problem with Windows is:
"The thing about Windows 8 wasn’t just [Microsoft's] distribution. Windows 8 was like this giant sadness. There’s supposed to be a 40 percent uptake, not a 20 percent decline, so that’s what really scares me. When I started using it I was like "oh my god..." I find [Windows 8] unusable."
Then they have a multi-store plan. They want users to be able to sell their own content (like hats for games) and setup their own store. The other store models would make it impossible for users to sell their own downloadable-content for it. One gamer apparently made over $500,000 selling digital hats or something.
for mobile gaming:
"So this [Steam Box] is called "Bigfoot" internally, and we also have "Littlefoot." [Littlefoot] says "what do we need to do to extend this to the mobile space?" Our approach will be pretty similar. We also think there’s a lot that needs to be done in the tablet and mobile space to improve input for games. I understand Apple's [approach]; all the way back in '83 when I met Jobs for the first time, he was so super anti-gaming.
In one of the designs that we’re building on the controller side, it has this touchpad and we’re trying to figure out where that’s useful. We don’t want to waste people’s money by just throwing in a touchpad. Once we understand what the role is of multitouch in these kind of applications then it’s easy to say you can use your phone for it."
That comes back to the open hardware model. With Apple's model, games have to be adapted to the hardware rather than the other way round.
People are already buying traditional laptops and computers so I doubt that a Steam Box would offer much. Some of them look quite cool but so does a Mac Mini. I'd take a Mini over a Linux Steam Box. People will also install Windows on the boxes anyway (Windows 7 most likely) because there aren't enough games for Linux so it doesn't really achieve anything.
Yeah, Angry Birds and likes are great quick time-killers, and people can accumulate a lot of time playing them in small doses. But.
There are more immersive iOS games than Angry Birds.
Quote:
1. Storage/distribution. PS3 titles are coming on BD that seem to be filled decently for AAA games. Idea of downloading 20GB + of data and transferring/keeping that on tablet/phone is a bit over the top, even on 64GB devices. As storage grows, maybe... but not just yet. Granted, Vita games are smaller - even Vita's Uncharted is around 3GB, probably stripped off cinematics, compared to PS3 titles... but we are talking about replacing consoles in living rooms, not portables.
Given that I download most of my AAA titles from Steam this does not appear to be a problem for consoles in living rooms. The aTV would need more local storage or the ability to store these on a Time Capsule. The latter more likely and more useful than the former.
Quote:
2. Controls. Most AAA action games have reasonably complex control scheme. I'd say over 10 separate controls: stick for moving, stick for turning around, directional pad (4 keys, basically) for selecting items and weapons, front sholder keys for shooting, aiming, throwing explosive devices, melee combat, plus keys for jump, duck, stick/unstick to cover, "use" key. Then, general controls for map, pause/calling menu... unless someone comes up with standardised control attachment for phone/tablet, how are you going to simulate all that when only thumbs are free, and are controls going to be even remotely accurate to replace physical controls?
OMFG. Like it would be difficult to add BT controllers to an aTV or even buttons to an iPhone/iPod Touch. Nor are AAA action games the be all and end all of AAA gaming. For example, Mass Effect can be played without two analog sticks, a d-pad and 16 buttons.
Quote:
3. Audience. Yes iPad and iPhone have larger user base than consoles. However, most if not all buy consoles for games, so creator of good AAA title can in theory hope that every console owner can be interested in new game. Of tablet/phone users, primary motive for purchase is not gaming. How many users would be interested in complex AAA game, and how many of them will be willing to pay price much chunkier than average iGame, even for just $20? At the end, number of sold copies on iDevice, regardless of user base, could end up being lower than on console, making $20 price completely unsustainable to cover development and other expenses.
Given that the majority of the revenue stream in the App Store is games I would guess a whole lot even at $20, certainly at $10. Not so much at $60.
A Mass Effect or KOTOR like game would do well on the iPad. The key to profitability is to sell a AAA base game with a shorter main plot line (8 hours vs 20 hours of playtime content if you zerg rush through the main plotlline) for $19.99 and then several medium sized DLCs (2-3 hour playtime) for $4.99 shortly after launch. 5 high quality 2-3 hour DLCs will get you to about the same level of voice content, level design and additional art assets as the original 20 hour target with a total revenue of $45.00.
Diablo like games (aka Dungeon Hunter) do well. I haven't bothered with DH3 because I tend to not like Freemium games.
I suppose HL3 wouldn't be in the list but it could be powerful enough to run full AAA games. The current iPad is PS3/XBox 360 quality and they have 1GB shared memory and it runs passively cooled.
Those are all very impressive but I'd personally rather see a movie with all those elements than play a first-person shooter game.
Having a directed movie scene is usually more interesting but there are many gameplay scenarios that don't involve shooting everything that moves. The 3rd person view works best for this. Scenes can vary from looking out from a destroyed spaceship across a planet surface, to a psychotic dream sequence to a horror scenario where you don't know where the noises are coming from:
[VIDEO]
[VIDEO]
[VIDEO]
[VIDEO]
A lot of games do go down the 'let's just make another first-person shooter' route and most at least have that gameplay element somewhere but a few developers take time to flesh out the good bits. I wish Apple had in internal game studio like Microsoft or at least partner with one (Square Enix would be my preference) so they could set a standard for games and just commission them to develop a few top-tier games that have these more visceral experiences.
A Mass Effect or KOTOR like game would do well on the iPad.
They made a mobile version of Mass Effect but it's nowhere near as good as the full Mass Effect.
[VIDEO]
You can see at 3:05 the combat just doesn't work very well because aim and shoot aren't really separate. Plus the AI and collision detection is quite poor. The AI is one of the worst things about the mobile games. Gameloft games are appalling at this. It could be down to the CPU processing power but they need to fix it.
D...the conference where Apple CEO's go to deny what they are working on.
Jobs 2003: "No plans at the current moment to make a tablet."
He was totally convincing too. Tim seems to be a bit too honest but maybe that's his diversion. I doubt it though, I don't think they care much about games. They demoed Halo and Quake at the Keynotes and had Carmack and EA as speakers at times but I see them being dragged into it more than they want to be involved in it.
I understand that feeling towards games because especially older games, you were really messing around with very unrealistic graphics and AI. We are getting much closer to interactive cinema / emotional gaming and it doesn't have to be looked down on.
It would make some serious amounts of revenue too. Imagine if they had major game franchise launches at the keynotes exclusive to iOS. It doesn't matter if they only appeal to a small portion of users, that can bring in a lot of money and makes iOS more attractive over Android.
They made a mobile version of Mass Effect but it's nowhere near as good as the full Mass Effect.
[video deleted]
You can see at 3:05 the combat just doesn't work very well because aim and shoot aren't really separate. Plus the AI and collision detection is quite poor. The AI is one of the worst things about the mobile games. Gameloft games are appalling at this. It could be down to the CPU processing power but they need to fix it.
...
I understand that feeling towards games because especially older games, you were really messing around with very unrealistic graphics and AI. We are getting much closer to interactive cinema / emotional gaming and it doesn't have to be looked down on.
First interactive cinema and emotional gaming is possible with 2003 level graphics and CPU. Meaning XBox level. How do we know this? KOTOR.
Second the Mass Effect Infiltrator game was designed to be played with shoot-on-aim as a game design decision. You click on the target and then maneuver the cross hair onto the target. With auto-aim turned off in the update it plays more like other FPS.
Mass Effect Infiltrator is NOT in the same ARPG genre as Mass Effect. The linear story is designed to move you from combat scene to combat scene. There are no roleplaying aspects to the game and it's just a 3rd person shooter with an interesting (but not so well liked) take on shooting mechanics.
Thus comparing Mass Effect to Mass Effect Infiltrator is dumb.
For interactive cinema/emotional gaming the combat mechanics are less important than the characters and plot. The iPad is certainly good enough for KOTOR level combat mechanics of queued combat maneuvers and cooldowns. Frankly such combat mechanisms are far more approachable for non-twitch ARPG gamers than hard core FPS or fighting game mechanics. The combat mechanics of Jade Empire were not that complex either in comparison to fighting games that require twitch-combos to win. Also something adaptable to the iPad.
If anything the Paperman short you posted above shows that a compelling story does not require uber realistic CGI where every hair is rendered and every boob jiggle run through a high fidelity PhysX simulation.
The iPad is certainly good enough for KOTOR level combat mechanics of queued combat maneuvers and cooldowns. Frankly such combat mechanisms are far more approachable for non-twitch ARPG gamers than hard core FPS or fighting game mechanics. The combat mechanics of Jade Empire were not that complex either in comparison to fighting games that require twitch-combos to win. Also something adaptable to the iPad.
Yes the iPad is perfect for traditional RPG style combat. Ironically a "dumbed-down" device needs to go back to more hardcore, nerdy, numbers-game type combat. But I have tried and tried and given up playing shooters on the iPad.
Comments
That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
The casual gaming market is definitely a big market but there will always be a desire to play certain types of games. Take the following movie for example:
[VIDEO]
It has characters, it tells a story, it has nice visuals. For a game to replicate that experience, it's in the category of serious/hardcore games. People will always want that immersion. The market for repetitive, dumbed down games is huge and they appeal to a lot of people but it has to wear out. I know people still watch a lot of poor TV shows but where can casual games really go?
I think we'll see lesser demand for dedicated devices just like with the iPod but developers will probably bring more mature titles to the wider audiences and I'd like to see Apple being more active in bringing it about.
I can see this happening once they get the next PowerVR GPUs in there with OpenGL ES 3. Developers one day soon will be able to deploy games to all the platforms at once but the price expectations in the App Store are going to have to go up. Square Enix has already tried this with their games:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/final-fantasy-iv/id575119311?mt=8
For a full AAA game title, I'd say $15-20 is a good target. They have to keep in mind that every game purchase is a new sale and there is no resale possible and the userbase is much bigger so they don't need to be as expensive as the console games.
That was really great little flick.
Yeah, Angry Birds and likes are great quick time-killers, and people can accumulate a lot of time playing them in small doses. But.
Playing game like, for example, Uncharted franchise... is like having a part in interactive Indiana Jones movie. All 3 games have great stories, great likeable characters, excellent voice acting, cut scenes, music, top notch visuals with beautifully recreated locations and variety in gameplay - tactical 3rd person shooting, brawler, platforming, puzzle solving, occasional on-rail sequence, even an odd driving/horse riding sequences. Stories are based on history and legends, with a fiction twist (Sir Francis Drake, Incas, Shambala...). It is completely different experience than shooting birds, cutting ropes and landing aeroplanes.
Can it be done on phone/tablet? Technically, yes. Uncharted: Golden Abyss on PS Vita, much as I have seen, doesn't trail much behind PS3 Uncharted titles in terms of visuals etc., and Vita is on hardware comparable to iPhone/iPad. However, there are couple of problems at present, much as I can see them:
1. Storage/distribution. PS3 titles are coming on BD that seem to be filled decently for AAA games. Idea of downloading 20GB + of data and transferring/keeping that on tablet/phone is a bit over the top, even on 64GB devices. As storage grows, maybe... but not just yet. Granted, Vita games are smaller - even Vita's Uncharted is around 3GB, probably stripped off cinematics, compared to PS3 titles... but we are talking about replacing consoles in living rooms, not portables.
2. Controls. Most AAA action games have reasonably complex control scheme. I'd say over 10 separate controls: stick for moving, stick for turning around, directional pad (4 keys, basically) for selecting items and weapons, front sholder keys for shooting, aiming, throwing explosive devices, melee combat, plus keys for jump, duck, stick/unstick to cover, "use" key. Then, general controls for map, pause/calling menu... unless someone comes up with standardised control attachment for phone/tablet, how are you going to simulate all that when only thumbs are free, and are controls going to be even remotely accurate to replace physical controls?
3. Audience. Yes iPad and iPhone have larger user base than consoles. However, most if not all buy consoles for games, so creator of good AAA title can in theory hope that every console owner can be interested in new game. Of tablet/phone users, primary motive for purchase is not gaming. How many users would be interested in complex AAA game, and how many of them will be willing to pay price much chunkier than average iGame, even for just $20? At the end, number of sold copies on iDevice, regardless of user base, could end up being lower than on console, making $20 price completely unsustainable to cover development and other expenses.
Fishstick... I think what Newell is about is computers for geeks. Bring back the complexity in the PC and Windows (and Linux) worlds. 'Computers aren't for the rest of us'. That, I think is why he seems to hate Apple. It has been easy for guys like this to whip up hatred against those who try to make computers useful for the rest of society, not just tools for geeks and business.
Could this be the same Gabe Newell who I am corresponding with on YouTube over a video comparing Dennis Ritchie with Steve Jobs:
and I had to correct the lies:
Ian Joyner 7 months ago
Well, Ritchie invented C which put computers back in the hands of geeks. Jobs fought geeks and 'engineers' to make computers useful for all. Jobs really got it, and that is? his legacy.
Gabe Newell 1 week ago
Back in the hands of geeks? You're an ignorant ****. The first Apple operating system was? written on a Unix kernel. What was the Unix kernel written in? C. Without Dennis Ritchie, Steve Jobs would have died unknown.
in reply to Ian Joyner
Ian Joyner 1 week ago
Yes, a really intelligent reply. Suggest you research the history. Apple was a very successful company without Unix and developed the Mac without Unix. Jobs would have been known without Unix. There is a long Apple history before 1997 when Unix came along. Check it out - especially before you use such ignorant language.
C is a terrible language, so full of holes - C++ much? worse. They are geared towards 'computers' rather than 'computing' so are not based on a solid computational model.
Reply · in reply to Gabe Newell
Gabe Newell 2 hours ago
"C is a terrible? language" -Ian Joyner, 2013.
Without C, you wouldn't have any of your shitty HLLs.
Ian Joyner 18 minutes ago
Gabe you show total ignorance of computing history. The original HLLs were COBOL and FORTRAN. These weren't particularly good, so ALGOL was developed in 1958 then 1960 as a wonderful achievement. LISP was also developed in 1958 - another wonderful achievement except all the '()'s and IBM CAR, CDR operators silly.
C was a retrograde step to dumb down HLLs and put? back in terrible assembler features that ALGOL carefully avoided.
Do some research beyond the C world. It's out there.
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I followed his name and he had posted videos of computer games. The one I looked at was completely tasteless of the player chasing after animals to shoot them. If it's the same Gabe Newell, I wouldn't trust anything he says - he's living in a completely fabricated world with C and Unix being the beginning of all history.
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Originally Posted by Marvin
That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
I don't think Valve is going after casual gamers, which is why I don't get why he feels threatened by Apple. Valve is targeting "mainstream gamers." Say, people who would play Half-Life, Portal, Skyrim, or Guild Wars. Gamers probably have a console and/or a Windows PC for gaming. The Xbox 360 is all but the de facto standard console for 3rd party (independent) titles. If Steambox is supposed to be a gaming appliance that connects to an HDTV, then I'd say it's intended to complete against consoles. It would also explain why Gabe feels competition from Apple, since Apple has several devices that can display HD game content on a TV (namely the iPod Touch and iPad via AirPlay). But if Steambox is going head-to-head with Xbox, PS3, and Wii, I don't see what Linux brings to that fight. Maybe it's the lowest hanging branch on the OS tree.
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I think the YouTube v. Cinematic Films are great example. A $150 million dollar sci-fi/action movie might be all the talk but YouTube and Vevo will get a lot more views (Gangnam Style has 1.25 billion views on YouTube. Consider the ad revenue from that many views on that single video compared to the risk of investing in a huge blockbuster film).
I hate to say this but the future isn't more of these huge investments in entertainment but a lot more smaller operations that will then be expanded if they become a hit.
We are already seeing this yes. But I'm confident that 'big' productions will still be made a lot.
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Originally Posted by Marvin
That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
The casual gaming market is definitely a big market but there will always be a desire to play certain types of games. Take the following movie for example:
It has characters, it tells a story, it has nice visuals. For a game to replicate that experience, it's in the category of serious/hardcore games. People will always want that immersion. The market for repetitive, dumbed down games is huge and they appeal to a lot of people but it has to wear out. I know people still watch a lot of poor TV shows but where can casual games really go?
I think we'll see lesser demand for dedicated devices just like with the iPod but developers will probably bring more mature titles to the wider audiences and I'd like to see Apple being more active in bringing it about.
I can see this happening once they get the next PowerVR GPUs in there with OpenGL ES 3. Developers one day soon will be able to deploy games to all the platforms at once but the price expectations in the App Store are going to have to go up. Square Enix has already tried this with their games:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/final-fantasy-iv/id575119311?mt=8
For a full AAA game title, I'd say $15-20 is a good target. They have to keep in mind that every game purchase is a new sale and there is no resale possible and the userbase is much bigger so they don't need to be as expensive as the console games.
Great video! And yes, not anybody can achieve that quality. And more money doesn't mean good either of course. This small video is better than the entire series of Transformers imo.
This is just another video game bubble waiting to burst.
http://www.nxistence.net/2012/05/09/the-video-game-bubble/
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Originally Posted by ijoyner
Fishstick... I think what Newell is about is computers for geeks. Bring back the complexity in the PC and Windows (and Linux) worlds. 'Computers aren't for the rest of us'. That, I think is why he seems to hate Apple. It has been easy for guys like this to whip up hatred against those who try to make computers useful for the rest of society, not just tools for geeks and business.
Trying to make computers work for geeks and novices alike left everyone not completely satisfied. My hope is that the iPad can satisfy the computing needs of non-geeks and, if anything, enable computers to become *more* geeky again.
Yeah the variety in the games is important. The following videos show how varied the scenes, characters and gameplay can be between higher-end titles:
[VIDEO]
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[VIDEO]
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[VIDEO]
Sizes are increasing more in the desktop market. Max Payne 3 is around 30GB on Steam. Most games tend to be around the 10GB mark but it is an issue. Deus Ex Human Revolution is under 9GB and is a reasonable size they could aim for. The XBox 360 still uses DVDs and although some games have to ship on two discs, I reckon it would work for most games. It's still a bit tight on portable device as you might only get one game on the 16GB units at a time.
One way they get round this in the App Store already is splitting the game, which is easier with digital downloads. Riven for the iPad is one of the bigger titles and they got away with 1.8GB:
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/riven-for-ipad/id536344854?mt=8
Then the price can be lower per part when it's split.
I think they can overcome this largely by just having shoulder buttons or touch on the back or sides. It's really about simultaneous inputs rather than how many total. Contollers let you have 6 simultaneous inputs. The touch screens only really give you two when you hold the device so the first two fingers of each hand need to be put to use on the back or sides of the device. Context controls and motion gestures can make up for a lot of the others.
That's what happened with Nintendo. When Sony dropped the first Playstation into the market, they made a clear statement that it was for older players and they've massively outsold Nintendo with the PS 1 and 2. They didn't do so well with the PS3 so hopefully they've learned from it - the failure from the big consoles now is mostly lack of titles and price. They have something coming soon but they haven't clarified what it is:
[VIDEO]
Apple has sort of let the market decide but all that ever seems to make it into the charts are games like actual Tetris. Imagine if Tetris was in the top 10 charts for the PS3. They at least put up a section for collections and in the Big Name games, they have a good list of higher quality titles.
Fifa 13, Rayman, GTA Vice City, NFS: Most Wanted, Dead Space, The Sims, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Lego Harry potter, Mirror's Edge, Soul Caliber, Tomb Raider Guardian of Light.
A few are still watered down and most are older games but they are creeping in. I wish they'd keep coming and it wasn't the same list but maybe we'll see more once mobile OpenGL has feature parity with desktop OpenGL.
That seems unlikely but you never know. He developed Mac software when he was at Microsoft so maybe he decided to put up his opinion on things.
There's an interview with him here and he gives some reasons but still leaves a few unanswered questions:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/8/3852144/gabe-newell-interview-steam-box-future-of-gaming
Part of it seems to be the open hardware model. Apple software only runs on Apple hardware. The problem with Windows is:
"The thing about Windows 8 wasn’t just [Microsoft's] distribution. Windows 8 was like this giant sadness. There’s supposed to be a 40 percent uptake, not a 20 percent decline, so that’s what really scares me. When I started using it I was like "oh my god..." I find [Windows 8] unusable."
Then they have a multi-store plan. They want users to be able to sell their own content (like hats for games) and setup their own store. The other store models would make it impossible for users to sell their own downloadable-content for it. One gamer apparently made over $500,000 selling digital hats or something.
for mobile gaming:
"So this [Steam Box] is called "Bigfoot" internally, and we also have "Littlefoot." [Littlefoot] says "what do we need to do to extend this to the mobile space?" Our approach will be pretty similar. We also think there’s a lot that needs to be done in the tablet and mobile space to improve input for games. I understand Apple's [approach]; all the way back in '83 when I met Jobs for the first time, he was so super anti-gaming.
In one of the designs that we’re building on the controller side, it has this touchpad and we’re trying to figure out where that’s useful. We don’t want to waste people’s money by just throwing in a touchpad. Once we understand what the role is of multitouch in these kind of applications then it’s easy to say you can use your phone for it."
That comes back to the open hardware model. With Apple's model, games have to be adapted to the hardware rather than the other way round.
People are already buying traditional laptops and computers so I doubt that a Steam Box would offer much. Some of them look quite cool but so does a Mac Mini. I'd take a Mini over a Linux Steam Box. People will also install Windows on the boxes anyway (Windows 7 most likely) because there aren't enough games for Linux so it doesn't really achieve anything.
Those are all very impressive but I'd personally rather see a movie with all those elements than play a first-person shooter game.
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Originally Posted by nikon133
Yeah, Angry Birds and likes are great quick time-killers, and people can accumulate a lot of time playing them in small doses. But.
There are more immersive iOS games than Angry Birds.
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1. Storage/distribution. PS3 titles are coming on BD that seem to be filled decently for AAA games. Idea of downloading 20GB + of data and transferring/keeping that on tablet/phone is a bit over the top, even on 64GB devices. As storage grows, maybe... but not just yet. Granted, Vita games are smaller - even Vita's Uncharted is around 3GB, probably stripped off cinematics, compared to PS3 titles... but we are talking about replacing consoles in living rooms, not portables.
Given that I download most of my AAA titles from Steam this does not appear to be a problem for consoles in living rooms. The aTV would need more local storage or the ability to store these on a Time Capsule. The latter more likely and more useful than the former.
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2. Controls. Most AAA action games have reasonably complex control scheme. I'd say over 10 separate controls: stick for moving, stick for turning around, directional pad (4 keys, basically) for selecting items and weapons, front sholder keys for shooting, aiming, throwing explosive devices, melee combat, plus keys for jump, duck, stick/unstick to cover, "use" key. Then, general controls for map, pause/calling menu... unless someone comes up with standardised control attachment for phone/tablet, how are you going to simulate all that when only thumbs are free, and are controls going to be even remotely accurate to replace physical controls?
OMFG. Like it would be difficult to add BT controllers to an aTV or even buttons to an iPhone/iPod Touch. Nor are AAA action games the be all and end all of AAA gaming. For example, Mass Effect can be played without two analog sticks, a d-pad and 16 buttons.
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3. Audience. Yes iPad and iPhone have larger user base than consoles. However, most if not all buy consoles for games, so creator of good AAA title can in theory hope that every console owner can be interested in new game. Of tablet/phone users, primary motive for purchase is not gaming. How many users would be interested in complex AAA game, and how many of them will be willing to pay price much chunkier than average iGame, even for just $20? At the end, number of sold copies on iDevice, regardless of user base, could end up being lower than on console, making $20 price completely unsustainable to cover development and other expenses.
Given that the majority of the revenue stream in the App Store is games I would guess a whole lot even at $20, certainly at $10. Not so much at $60.
A Mass Effect or KOTOR like game would do well on the iPad. The key to profitability is to sell a AAA base game with a shorter main plot line (8 hours vs 20 hours of playtime content if you zerg rush through the main plotlline) for $19.99 and then several medium sized DLCs (2-3 hour playtime) for $4.99 shortly after launch. 5 high quality 2-3 hour DLCs will get you to about the same level of voice content, level design and additional art assets as the original 20 hour target with a total revenue of $45.00.
Diablo like games (aka Dungeon Hunter) do well. I haven't bothered with DH3 because I tend to not like Freemium games.
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Those are all very impressive but I'd personally rather see a movie with all those elements than play a first-person shooter game.
That's what god mode is for. LOL.
I had to look that up if that's any indication of my interest in such games.
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Originally Posted by Marvin
I suppose HL3 wouldn't be in the list but it could be powerful enough to run full AAA games. The current iPad is PS3/XBox 360 quality and they have 1GB shared memory and it runs passively cooled.
Tim Cook put a bit of a damper on it though:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/29/3051733/tim-cook-not-interested-in-console-business
"I'm not interested in being in the console business in what is thought of as traditional gaming".
D...the conference where Apple CEO's go to deny what they are working on.
Jobs 2003: "No plans at the current moment to make a tablet."
http://allthingsd.com/video/steve-jobs-at-d1-we-think-the-tablets-gonna-fail/?mod=atd_outbrain&mod=obnetwork
This despite Protoype 035 built in 2002 sitting in their lab.
Having a directed movie scene is usually more interesting but there are many gameplay scenarios that don't involve shooting everything that moves. The 3rd person view works best for this. Scenes can vary from looking out from a destroyed spaceship across a planet surface, to a psychotic dream sequence to a horror scenario where you don't know where the noises are coming from:
[VIDEO]
[VIDEO]
[VIDEO]
[VIDEO]
A lot of games do go down the 'let's just make another first-person shooter' route and most at least have that gameplay element somewhere but a few developers take time to flesh out the good bits. I wish Apple had in internal game studio like Microsoft or at least partner with one (Square Enix would be my preference) so they could set a standard for games and just commission them to develop a few top-tier games that have these more visceral experiences.
They made a mobile version of Mass Effect but it's nowhere near as good as the full Mass Effect.
[VIDEO]
You can see at 3:05 the combat just doesn't work very well because aim and shoot aren't really separate. Plus the AI and collision detection is quite poor. The AI is one of the worst things about the mobile games. Gameloft games are appalling at this. It could be down to the CPU processing power but they need to fix it.
He was totally convincing too. Tim seems to be a bit too honest but maybe that's his diversion. I doubt it though, I don't think they care much about games. They demoed Halo and Quake at the Keynotes and had Carmack and EA as speakers at times but I see them being dragged into it more than they want to be involved in it.
I understand that feeling towards games because especially older games, you were really messing around with very unrealistic graphics and AI. We are getting much closer to interactive cinema / emotional gaming and it doesn't have to be looked down on.
It would make some serious amounts of revenue too. Imagine if they had major game franchise launches at the keynotes exclusive to iOS. It doesn't matter if they only appeal to a small portion of users, that can bring in a lot of money and makes iOS more attractive over Android.
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Originally Posted by Marvin
They made a mobile version of Mass Effect but it's nowhere near as good as the full Mass Effect.
[video deleted]
You can see at 3:05 the combat just doesn't work very well because aim and shoot aren't really separate. Plus the AI and collision detection is quite poor. The AI is one of the worst things about the mobile games. Gameloft games are appalling at this. It could be down to the CPU processing power but they need to fix it.
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I understand that feeling towards games because especially older games, you were really messing around with very unrealistic graphics and AI. We are getting much closer to interactive cinema / emotional gaming and it doesn't have to be looked down on.
First interactive cinema and emotional gaming is possible with 2003 level graphics and CPU. Meaning XBox level. How do we know this? KOTOR.
Second the Mass Effect Infiltrator game was designed to be played with shoot-on-aim as a game design decision. You click on the target and then maneuver the cross hair onto the target. With auto-aim turned off in the update it plays more like other FPS.
Mass Effect Infiltrator is NOT in the same ARPG genre as Mass Effect. The linear story is designed to move you from combat scene to combat scene. There are no roleplaying aspects to the game and it's just a 3rd person shooter with an interesting (but not so well liked) take on shooting mechanics.
Thus comparing Mass Effect to Mass Effect Infiltrator is dumb.
For interactive cinema/emotional gaming the combat mechanics are less important than the characters and plot. The iPad is certainly good enough for KOTOR level combat mechanics of queued combat maneuvers and cooldowns. Frankly such combat mechanisms are far more approachable for non-twitch ARPG gamers than hard core FPS or fighting game mechanics. The combat mechanics of Jade Empire were not that complex either in comparison to fighting games that require twitch-combos to win. Also something adaptable to the iPad.
If anything the Paperman short you posted above shows that a compelling story does not require uber realistic CGI where every hair is rendered and every boob jiggle run through a high fidelity PhysX simulation.
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Originally Posted by nht
The iPad is certainly good enough for KOTOR level combat mechanics of queued combat maneuvers and cooldowns. Frankly such combat mechanisms are far more approachable for non-twitch ARPG gamers than hard core FPS or fighting game mechanics. The combat mechanics of Jade Empire were not that complex either in comparison to fighting games that require twitch-combos to win. Also something adaptable to the iPad.
Yes the iPad is perfect for traditional RPG style combat. Ironically a "dumbed-down" device needs to go back to more hardcore, nerdy, numbers-game type combat. But I have tried and tried and given up playing shooters on the iPad.