Better Apple have a plan for their excess cash than wait for the IRS to penalize them for it. I'm curious to those that prefer the status quo (even though Apple agrees with those of us that want to participate in some of the profits). At what point do you start speaking out for distributions or buybacks? When Apple has a trillion in cash on hand? Two trillion? More?
It depends on the size of Apple when they reach a trillion. Or in other words: How much could they potentially lose in another dot com crash? And how quickly could they recover? You need that amount in the bank plus a sizeable buffer.
A trillion in the bank would mean that AAPL would rise irrespective of buybacks, else the value of the shares may be less than the value in the bank (or book value).
Except now this guy and every other douche will think that making a wild claim against Apple will result in an official Apple response.
No, it has to be seen as a serious proposal from a large shareholder.
Even though I am a shareholder and I want Apple to do a $40B repurchase -- one shot -- I couldn't do something similar to Einhorn and generate a response, for example.
Those of you calling for Apple to give the money to investors are frankly just short term thinking idiots.
(oh and I'm fully AAPL long and would be one of those who would supposedly 'benefit' from frivolously throwing money down the drain.)
Rather than moan that the stock has dropped, use you brain and realise that this is a short term negative blip and the product of 100% pure manipulation. Buy more shares and capitalise on the situation, rather than moan about it. These dips are your friend, not your enemy.
There is SO much more money to be made on the return journey, than whatever handouts you desire in the form of dividends.
Still believe in the fantasy of manipulation as the reason for the stock getting hammered.. are you serious? Please share with us who has the money to manipulate 10 billion of market cap in AAPL every day for the past several months. It's not manipulation when the stock went up from low 400s to 700s though, but it is when it goes down?
The reason why this stock has been plummeting is because the bus was over levered, over crowded with hedge funds who thought AAPL would continue to innovate and keep their massive profit margins. Well the street doubts AAPL's ability to innovate in the near-med term until it proves itself again, competition has clearly caught up, and hedge funds scrambled to get out at the same time. That's not manipulation.
So AAPL's margins are shrinking fast, demand is flattening, innovation is in question so why would any hedge fund want to pour any more money into this broken stock when so many hedgies are still invested in it already?
This was a growth stock, not anymore and the street has voted. The only way AAPL can attract more institutional money right now is if they fix those problems, and since they can't fast enough, they have to offer some incentive to invest ie., attract the value investors to up the divvy.
The Einhorn proposal is a solid one if you analyse it thoroughly while protecting the common.
There is absolutely no reason for AAPL to continue letting all that cash rot and do nothing with big investors giving up, fleeing daily and weekly because the company won't do more to protect its shareholder value because it is anti-wall street. Don't forget, its the big institutional investors like Einhrn who end up BUYING the stock and lifting the share price and help YOU the retailers make money.
Still believe in the fantasy of manipulation as the reason for the stock getting hammered.. are you serious?
Oh come on, any fool can see the manipulation surely? It doesn't take a genius. Institutions own 67% and hedge funds don't need the raw cash because they use huge leverage.
Plus you don't need that much money because much of the manipulation happens in low volume premarket.
It's 100% the result of actions by market participants, for better or worse, reasonable or emotionally driven. Call it manipulation if it makes you feel better. If you have evidence of actual crimes, please forward that to the authorities. I have a hard time believing in wide conspiracies for a stock under as much scrutiny as AAPL.
That they responded so quickly illustrates that 1) they consider this an important issue 2) they've likely been thinking about the issue and anticipating an action like Einhorn's.
they don't want this to cause the stock price to drop any lower.
Quote:
Also, they went beyond boilerplate when they said that have much more cash than they need to run their business since early last year. The implication of that statement, along with the continued repetition that they are evaluating options implies they are up to something.
I'm not sure I agree. Stating that they have more cash than needed is really only stating the obvious. And 'evaluating options'--even noting that the article said they were holding active discussions--is about as weak on information as any statement could ever be.
Apple has a duty to its shareholders to run the company well etc. etc.
No they don't. Shareholders expect profits at any cost so running the company into the ground for short term profit would suit them just fine. To hell with running it "well." That would mean looking to the future at the possible expense of profits and we can't have that can we. Gimme that money now¡
Here is what I'd do with "all that cash" if I were in charge of Apple:
Listen up, shareholders (read Einhorn and all others complaining about the cash). We will start selling every iPhone, every iPad, every iPod and every Mac at cost or at loss. This will solve two problems: 1. Our cash reserves will stop growing and gradually diminish. 2. Our market share will go sky high.
After a decade of this, we will no longer be irresponsibly sitting on too much cash. Our market share will be dominant. To boot, since our strategy will be aligned with that of Amazon, investors should value our company the same way, while taking into account our stratospherically high revenues.
It's 100% the result of actions by market participants, for better or worse, reasonable or emotionally driven. Call it manipulation if it makes you feel better. If you have evidence of actual crimes, please forward that to the authorities. I have a hard time believing in wide conspiracies for a stock under as much scrutiny as AAPL.
Well, you keep thinking that, and I will continue making money from the naive! I have no monetary interest in convincing people otherwise that's for sure.
Here is what I'd do with "all that cash" if I were in charge of Apple:
Listen up, shareholders (read Einhorn and all others complaining about the cash). We will start selling every iPhone, every iPad, every iPod and every Mac at cost or at loss. This will solve two problems: 1. Our cash reserves will stop growing and gradually diminish. 2. Our market share will go sky high.
After a decade of this, we will no longer be irresponsibly sitting on too much cash. Our market share will be dominant. To boot, since our strategy will be aligned with that of Amazon, investors should value our company the same way, while taking into account our stratospherically high revenues.
No... That would result in charges of "unfair competition", "dumping" or some such nonsense from government overseers.
It is simply not an option in a situation like this. They -- Steve or no Steve -- have to respond. You can be cute on internet boards, but not on corporate boards.
That they responded so quickly illustrates that 1) they consider this an important issue 2) they've likely been thinking about the issue and anticipating an action like Einhorn's.
Also, they went beyond boilerplate when they said that have much more cash than they need to run their business since early last year. The implication of that statement, along with the continued repetition that they are evaluating options implies they are up to something.
Nothing of that sort. Yes, it is a material issue, and any halfway decent corporate law team in a company will have a boilerplate response to something like this (along with other similar requests that may show up, such as "we want more diversity on our Board").
Apple has said many times before that they have more cash than they need and that they'e evaluating options. Oppenheimer has mentioned that in prior conference calls with analysts. Nothing new there.
It is simply not an option in a situation like this. They -- Steve or no Steve -- have to respond. You can be cute on internet boards, but not on corporate boards.
Absolutely. They're dealing with an actual lawsuit here. Regardless of the intelligence behind it, they'd have to say something meaningful.
(I have no idea why your quote didn't show).
You just have nested quotes turned off. You can turn them on in your user page's preferences. I think it's actually a lot better this way, since after long conversations you don't wind up looking down ten formatting steps for the actual content.
And because I'm the only one that removes the extra space inside quotes (and the unnecessary "Quote:" line above), it saves all that formatting space, too.
Good for Einhorn, at least he got their attention. Anyone saying they shouldn't raise the dividend is a moron. They cant possibly have any use for ALL the cash they have and if they ever do it will be a dark day indeed. Now factor in even a 25% increase raises the quarterly payout from 2.5 to 3.125 billion, ie they will still be piling up cash faster than they can count it, and it's even more obvious that is what they should do.
My guess is the increase will come in March, one year after they announced the original dividend. Hopefully it will be a 25% increase which should attract a whole new class of investors.
Terrific news for AAPL longs. About time a brilliant investor and hedge fund titan like Einhorn step in and open the eyes of the InCompetence in Cupertino. Enough destruction of shareholder value, Apple's image and its public perception, and it only took several months late.
The next step is to strike the Samdung dogs back, and start being the leader in innovating again. David Einhorn for special advisor to Tim Cook!
Good for Einhorn, at least he got their attention. Anyone saying they shouldn't raise the dividend is a moron.
I don't consider myself a moron and I don't want them to raise the dividend. I think they actually do have plans for that cash and self-serving lawsuits by suspect investors to goad Apple into acting in a manner that is not beneficial to the company should be squashed.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw
Better Apple have a plan for their excess cash than wait for the IRS to penalize them for it. I'm curious to those that prefer the status quo (even though Apple agrees with those of us that want to participate in some of the profits). At what point do you start speaking out for distributions or buybacks? When Apple has a trillion in cash on hand? Two trillion? More?
It depends on the size of Apple when they reach a trillion. Or in other words: How much could they potentially lose in another dot com crash? And how quickly could they recover? You need that amount in the bank plus a sizeable buffer.
A trillion in the bank would mean that AAPL would rise irrespective of buybacks, else the value of the shares may be less than the value in the bank (or book value).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Except now this guy and every other douche will think that making a wild claim against Apple will result in an official Apple response.
No, it has to be seen as a serious proposal from a large shareholder.
Even though I am a shareholder and I want Apple to do a $40B repurchase -- one shot -- I couldn't do something similar to Einhorn and generate a response, for example.
That's the way the system works...
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
Those of you calling for Apple to give the money to investors are frankly just short term thinking idiots.
(oh and I'm fully AAPL long and would be one of those who would supposedly 'benefit' from frivolously throwing money down the drain.)
Rather than moan that the stock has dropped, use you brain and realise that this is a short term negative blip and the product of 100% pure manipulation. Buy more shares and capitalise on the situation, rather than moan about it. These dips are your friend, not your enemy.
There is SO much more money to be made on the return journey, than whatever handouts you desire in the form of dividends.
Still believe in the fantasy of manipulation as the reason for the stock getting hammered.. are you serious? Please share with us who has the money to manipulate 10 billion of market cap in AAPL every day for the past several months. It's not manipulation when the stock went up from low 400s to 700s though, but it is when it goes down?
The reason why this stock has been plummeting is because the bus was over levered, over crowded with hedge funds who thought AAPL would continue to innovate and keep their massive profit margins. Well the street doubts AAPL's ability to innovate in the near-med term until it proves itself again, competition has clearly caught up, and hedge funds scrambled to get out at the same time. That's not manipulation.
So AAPL's margins are shrinking fast, demand is flattening, innovation is in question so why would any hedge fund want to pour any more money into this broken stock when so many hedgies are still invested in it already?
This was a growth stock, not anymore and the street has voted. The only way AAPL can attract more institutional money right now is if they fix those problems, and since they can't fast enough, they have to offer some incentive to invest ie., attract the value investors to up the divvy.
The Einhorn proposal is a solid one if you analyse it thoroughly while protecting the common.
There is absolutely no reason for AAPL to continue letting all that cash rot and do nothing with big investors giving up, fleeing daily and weekly because the company won't do more to protect its shareholder value because it is anti-wall street. Don't forget, its the big institutional investors like Einhrn who end up BUYING the stock and lifting the share price and help YOU the retailers make money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingChael
Still believe in the fantasy of manipulation as the reason for the stock getting hammered.. are you serious?
Oh come on, any fool can see the manipulation surely? It doesn't take a genius. Institutions own 67% and hedge funds don't need the raw cash because they use huge leverage.
Plus you don't need that much money because much of the manipulation happens in low volume premarket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
100% pure manipulation
It's 100% the result of actions by market participants, for better or worse, reasonable or emotionally driven. Call it manipulation if it makes you feel better. If you have evidence of actual crimes, please forward that to the authorities. I have a hard time believing in wide conspiracies for a stock under as much scrutiny as AAPL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Except now this guy and every other douche will think that making a wild claim against Apple will result in an official Apple response.
Yeah. Apple just fed the troll. I would have loved a two-word response from SJ, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creid1987
I think its a bit more.
That they responded so quickly illustrates that 1) they consider this an important issue 2) they've likely been thinking about the issue and anticipating an action like Einhorn's.
they don't want this to cause the stock price to drop any lower.
Quote:
Also, they went beyond boilerplate when they said that have much more cash than they need to run their business since early last year. The implication of that statement, along with the continued repetition that they are evaluating options implies they are up to something.
I'm not sure I agree. Stating that they have more cash than needed is really only stating the obvious. And 'evaluating options'--even noting that the article said they were holding active discussions--is about as weak on information as any statement could ever be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by palomine
Apple has a duty to its shareholders to run the company well etc. etc.
No they don't. Shareholders expect profits at any cost so running the company into the ground for short term profit would suit them just fine. To hell with running it "well." That would mean looking to the future at the possible expense of profits and we can't have that can we. Gimme that money now¡
Here is what I'd do with "all that cash" if I were in charge of Apple:
Listen up, shareholders (read Einhorn and all others complaining about the cash). We will start selling every iPhone, every iPad, every iPod and every Mac at cost or at loss. This will solve two problems: 1. Our cash reserves will stop growing and gradually diminish. 2. Our market share will go sky high.
After a decade of this, we will no longer be irresponsibly sitting on too much cash. Our market share will be dominant. To boot, since our strategy will be aligned with that of Amazon, investors should value our company the same way, while taking into account our stratospherically high revenues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul
It's 100% the result of actions by market participants, for better or worse, reasonable or emotionally driven. Call it manipulation if it makes you feel better. If you have evidence of actual crimes, please forward that to the authorities. I have a hard time believing in wide conspiracies for a stock under as much scrutiny as AAPL.
Well, you keep thinking that, and I will continue making money from the naive! I have no monetary interest in convincing people otherwise that's for sure.
Originally Posted by BigBillyGoatGruff
I would have loved a two-word response from SJ, though.
No.
Sent from my iPad
At this point, we think the way we handle our money is fine.
We have no plans to give you a dime.
I respect and admire shareholders. We just don't waste our money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
Here is what I'd do with "all that cash" if I were in charge of Apple:
Listen up, shareholders (read Einhorn and all others complaining about the cash). We will start selling every iPhone, every iPad, every iPod and every Mac at cost or at loss. This will solve two problems: 1. Our cash reserves will stop growing and gradually diminish. 2. Our market share will go sky high.
After a decade of this, we will no longer be irresponsibly sitting on too much cash. Our market share will be dominant. To boot, since our strategy will be aligned with that of Amazon, investors should value our company the same way, while taking into account our stratospherically high revenues.
No... That would result in charges of "unfair competition", "dumping" or some such nonsense from government overseers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
It is simply not an option in a situation like this. They -- Steve or no Steve -- have to respond. You can be cute on internet boards, but not on corporate boards.
(I have no idea why your quote didn't show).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creid1987
That they responded so quickly illustrates that 1) they consider this an important issue 2) they've likely been thinking about the issue and anticipating an action like Einhorn's.
Also, they went beyond boilerplate when they said that have much more cash than they need to run their business since early last year. The implication of that statement, along with the continued repetition that they are evaluating options implies they are up to something.
Nothing of that sort. Yes, it is a material issue, and any halfway decent corporate law team in a company will have a boilerplate response to something like this (along with other similar requests that may show up, such as "we want more diversity on our Board").
Apple has said many times before that they have more cash than they need and that they'e evaluating options. Oppenheimer has mentioned that in prior conference calls with analysts. Nothing new there.
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
It is simply not an option in a situation like this. They -- Steve or no Steve -- have to respond. You can be cute on internet boards, but not on corporate boards.
Absolutely. They're dealing with an actual lawsuit here. Regardless of the intelligence behind it, they'd have to say something meaningful.
(I have no idea why your quote didn't show).
You just have nested quotes turned off. You can turn them on in your user page's preferences. I think it's actually a lot better this way, since after long conversations you don't wind up looking down ten formatting steps for the actual content.
And because I'm the only one that removes the extra space inside quotes (and the unnecessary "Quote:" line above), it saves all that formatting space, too.
My guess is the increase will come in March, one year after they announced the original dividend. Hopefully it will be a 25% increase which should attract a whole new class of investors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingChael
Terrific news for AAPL longs. About time a brilliant investor and hedge fund titan like Einhorn step in and open the eyes of the InCompetence in Cupertino. Enough destruction of shareholder value, Apple's image and its public perception, and it only took several months late.
The next step is to strike the Samdung dogs back, and start being the leader in innovating again. David Einhorn for special advisor to Tim Cook!
phhhst - King Chael ?
Come off it Dave, we know that's you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkell31
Good for Einhorn, at least he got their attention. Anyone saying they shouldn't raise the dividend is a moron.
I don't consider myself a moron and I don't want them to raise the dividend. I think they actually do have plans for that cash and self-serving lawsuits by suspect investors to goad Apple into acting in a manner that is not beneficial to the company should be squashed.