I think this makes sense seeing a retina display ipad mini coming out this year. Everyone wants this to happen so it doesn't surprise me. I have the nexus 7 and it works fine for what I do with it but if the ipad mini with retina comes out it will blow away the competition.
I still contend that it'll be technically possible the 2nd half of this year (and only technically possible the 2nd half of this year if you want to maintain the current weight, thickness, and battery life windows), but that it's still up in the air since they started with a year old ASIC with the A5 instead of the A6 which makes me question whether Apple wants to use the most the current, state-of-the-art tech in the iPad mini.
We know it's generating less profit per unit and a lower profit margin than the larger iPad. I guess they could balance it out by making it more expensive than the non-Retina iPad (not unlike what they did with the Retina MBPs) but so far they've never done that with an iDevice specifically for going Retina.
For the sake of being thorough they do have two iPod Touches at scaled prices but both are Retina, it's a 2010 model at 3.5" v. 2012 at 4". Both are Retina but the 3.5" model only uses a TN panel instead of IPS. Since the iPad mini already uses an IPS panel that cost is already accounted for, as well an interest in the 7.85" size which has already far exceeded the original iPad sales which makes it the fastest selling Apple product and fastest selling CE in the world.
Based on all this info I'd say that they will offer a Retina model before Christmas but at an increased cost.
I don't think history is a good indicator for this case. I feel size and weight (especially weight) are highly important factors to with the iPad mini. Then consider that the iPad mini will have the the same jump to 4x as many pixels as the previous version, like the iPad but in about 1/2 the volume. If they want the the thickness and weight to be close to what it is now I don't think they'll be using the A6X that is found in the iPad 4.
The iPad mini is also seriously underpowered as it stands today. It struggles with large applications and switching between two large apps sometimes engenders delays of between 5 to 15 seconds which is a hell of a lot considering how virtually instantaneous the switching is on other iOS devices.
Making the mini into a Retina device has to also take into account that the mini needs a bit more power as it is. As you also point out, all of that has to happen in pretty much the same size and weight range of the current mini. If the next mini is thicker or heavier it kind of goes against the main reason for the product's existence.
The iPad mini is also seriously underpowered as it stands today. It struggles with large applications and switching between two large apps sometimes engenders delays of between 5 to 15 seconds which is a hell of a lot considering how virtually instantaneous the switching is on other iOS devices.
Making the mini into a Retina device has to also take into account that the mini needs a bit more power as it is. As you also point out, all of that has to happen in pretty much the same size and weight range of the current mini. If the next mini is thicker or heavier it kind of goes against the main reason for the product's existence.
No argument here. I would add that there is a thickness and weight window. I think it can get a little thicker and heavier without having a major affect on the UX, but I think that window is small, especially with weigh.
As mentioned in my previous reply to quest01 I think that a cost window might be fairly wide. With the success of the iPad mini do you think a $70 premium for a $399 iPad mIni with Retina Display is feasible?
No argument here. I would add that there is a thickness and weight window. I think it can get a little thicker and heavier without having a major affect on the UX, but I think that window is small, especially with weigh.
As mentioned in my previous reply to quest01 I think that a cost window might be fairly wide. With the success of the iPad mini do you think a $70 premium for a $399 iPad mIni with Retina Display is feasible?
I think a $399 iPad mini Retina is feasible as long as they lower the price of the iPad mini to $299 then we'd have the following;
iPad mini - starting @ $299
iPad mini Retina - starting @ $399
iPad Retina - starting @ $499
I don't see the iPad 2 sticking around come this holiday season, or even earlier. What I'd also like to see Apple do, at least for the retina models, is start the storage capacity @ 32GB instead of 16GB.
If the current mini has a ppi of 163, and you double the resolution on both axes, wouldn't that give you a ppi of 326? So how did Appleinsider get 324? Oh, because they started with the wrong screen size of 7.9 inch when it should be 7.85. Even then, isn't it obvious math that 326 should be the correct figure?
He's right. We've been through this before. Well, I've been through this before. Apple rounded up to the nearest tenth. It's not only easier than going to the hundredth but it's also the inverse 9.7, their other iPad size.
AI took this value from other site that used the 7.9" size to get 324 when figuring out the pixel density. Consider why Apple used the iPad mini size they did? it uses the 163.xx PPI of the original iPhone. Now consider how we got the Retina iPhone and iPod Touch. It's doubling the resolution which is 326.xx PPI. It's an exact doubling. Same thing with the iPad 2 to the iPad (3), except with an 132.xx to 264.xx PPI.
When they make the iPad mini Retina it will be 326.xx thus using the same process they have perfected back in 2010 with the iPhone 4.
PS: Note that the 3.5" and 4" iPhone and iPod Touch, and 9.7" iPad are not exactly those sizes, but rounded values.
Not everyone is comfortable with paying 1200 dollars a year for a smartphone, and by "not everyone" I mean the large majority of the world, especially on those countries where people know they can't live with more than what they earn.
For those of us: Apple does not give an option, Windows sucks, so we have no choice but android. I'm proud of myself, proud that i'm not part of the "haz cheezeburgerz" crowd, just like my friends. Far from it.
I don't come close to paying 1200 a year for using the iPhone 5. I have no idea what you are comparing. Closer to 750/year on Verizon.
... With the success of the iPad mini do you think a $70 premium for a $399 iPad mIni with Retina Display is feasible?
I don't see anyone paying "extra" for Retina. While a lot of people have gotten caught up in the retina hype, the average person sees it as something "cool" that they would like to have, but IMO they don't really see the big deal about it. If the Retina one costs more than a non-retina one and both models are available, I think the non-retina would be the biggest seller all other things being equal.
My prediction is that the next iPad mini will be twice as powerful as the predecessor with twice as much system RAM (as is typical with all iOS releases so far), it will have a Retina display (because it would be impossible not to given the competition at this stage), and it will be the same price as the current one.
Based on the parts leaks I've seen, it will probably be thicker (and probably heavier), but only by a smidge because again ... considering the context ... anything more than a millimetre or so thicker would be "outrageously thick" at this point.
I'm already a die-hard iPad mini user and wouldn't use anything else so I'm not really worried about it since I will likely buy whatever it is regardless.
Could you restate that for me? Are you saying I'm incorrect in thinking Rogue 6 is likely to happen in the 2nd half of the year, at all, that it won't offer power savings, that I assumed it would be at the 32nm process or something else entirely?
I must have seen you implying it came with the Rogue 6 already, in which to my original comment I stated, ``Incorrect.'' Chalk it up to late hours. And yes, the Rogue 6 series is the direction for the next generation iOS devices.
The real question is how Apple differentiates between the iPad Mini and iPad and the choice of 6 series being based upon the number of cores for the GPGPU.
Quote:
PowerVR G6200 and G6400 are designed to deliver the best performance at the smallest area possible for two and four cluster architectures respectively, while the PowerVR G6230 and G6430 ‘go all out’, adding incremental extra area for maximum performance whilst minimising power consumption.
I'm betting the custom Apple A series SoC for the mini Retina will house the PowerVR G6200 variant and the iPad Retina will house the Power VR G6400 variant that matches Apple's custom designed ARM which I think will be a 4 core A15 variant for the iPad and a 4 core A9 variant for the iPad mini.
You have to give distinct differentiation between the two, and with both being Retina based the main distinction outside of the form factor will be performance/watt and battery size.
I agree that the iPad and iPad mini both can become a tad thicker while not over straining the biggest whiners out there.
The iPad is 13.4 mm thick
The iPad 2 is 8.8 mm thick [obscenely thin]
The iPad 3/4 is 9.4 mm thick
If you take the average of both ends from the iPad to the iPad 2 you get 11.1 mm thickness which would accomodate more hardware capabilities and a bigger battery. Newer battery tech will be where the biggest area for weight balance is achievable. The extra thickness will give the feel a sweet spot in durability and not the feel of an overly thick piece of paper.
You can then move the iPad mini to the original thinness of the iPad 2 (8.8mm) making room for better sensors, cameras, bigger battery, etc., and a feeling it isn't a damn oversized thin mint.
It gives Apple the ability to make them using larger batteries and more CPU/GPGPU SoC cores and room for other circuitry like NFC and more.
Finally, it gives them more volume to let heat passively dissipate leaving the device cooler to the touch, even at full operation during game play.
I was just in an Apple store and looked at the iPad Mini again...and the size and particularly the weight difference between the Mini and the reg. iPad is amazing.
I know the iPad has more screen real estate than the mini, but the weight difference is wonderful. Mini for me...I hope then don't have to make it heavier or thicker just to have a Retina display. It that were the case, I would prefer no Retina.
I still contend that it'll be technically possible the 2nd half of this year (and only technically possible the 2nd half of this year if you want to maintain the current weight, thickness, and battery life windows), but that it's still up in the air since they started with a year old ASIC with the A5 instead of the A6 which makes me question whether Apple wants to use the most the current, state-of-the-art tech in the iPad mini.
We know it's generating less profit per unit and a lower profit margin than the larger iPad. I guess they could balance it out by making it more expensive than the non-Retina iPad (not unlike what they did with the Retina MBPs) but so far they've never done that with an iDevice specifically for going Retina.
For the sake of being thorough they do have two iPod Touches at scaled prices but both are Retina, it's a 2010 model at 3.5" v. 2012 at 4". Both are Retina but the 3.5" model only uses a TN panel instead of IPS. Since the iPad mini already uses an IPS panel that cost is already accounted for, as well an interest in the 7.85" size which has already far exceeded the original iPad sales which makes it the fastest selling Apple product and fastest selling CE in the world.
Based on all this info I'd say that they will offer a Retina model before Christmas but at an increased cost.
I was just in an Apple store and looked at the iPad Mini again...and the size and particularly the weight difference between the Mini and the reg. iPad is amazing.
I know the iPad has more screen real estate than the mini, but the weight difference is wonderful. Mini for me...I hope then don't have to make it heavier or thicker just to have a Retina display. It that were the case, I would prefer no Retina.
Best
Yes that's why I'm hoping (expecting) the next full size iPad goes the mini design form, a definite possibility if it were to utilize the IGZO screen tech with it's lower power requirements.
Comments
I still contend that it'll be technically possible the 2nd half of this year (and only technically possible the 2nd half of this year if you want to maintain the current weight, thickness, and battery life windows), but that it's still up in the air since they started with a year old ASIC with the A5 instead of the A6 which makes me question whether Apple wants to use the most the current, state-of-the-art tech in the iPad mini.
We know it's generating less profit per unit and a lower profit margin than the larger iPad. I guess they could balance it out by making it more expensive than the non-Retina iPad (not unlike what they did with the Retina MBPs) but so far they've never done that with an iDevice specifically for going Retina.
For the sake of being thorough they do have two iPod Touches at scaled prices but both are Retina, it's a 2010 model at 3.5" v. 2012 at 4". Both are Retina but the 3.5" model only uses a TN panel instead of IPS. Since the iPad mini already uses an IPS panel that cost is already accounted for, as well an interest in the 7.85" size which has already far exceeded the original iPad sales which makes it the fastest selling Apple product and fastest selling CE in the world.
Based on all this info I'd say that they will offer a Retina model before Christmas but at an increased cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I don't think history is a good indicator for this case. I feel size and weight (especially weight) are highly important factors to with the iPad mini. Then consider that the iPad mini will have the the same jump to 4x as many pixels as the previous version, like the iPad but in about 1/2 the volume. If they want the the thickness and weight to be close to what it is now I don't think they'll be using the A6X that is found in the iPad 4.
The iPad mini is also seriously underpowered as it stands today. It struggles with large applications and switching between two large apps sometimes engenders delays of between 5 to 15 seconds which is a hell of a lot considering how virtually instantaneous the switching is on other iOS devices.
Making the mini into a Retina device has to also take into account that the mini needs a bit more power as it is. As you also point out, all of that has to happen in pretty much the same size and weight range of the current mini. If the next mini is thicker or heavier it kind of goes against the main reason for the product's existence.
Seriously? You're offended by that comment?
File under: PEDRO MARTINS - I CAN HAZ BUTTONZ PUSHED
No argument here. I would add that there is a thickness and weight window. I think it can get a little thicker and heavier without having a major affect on the UX, but I think that window is small, especially with weigh.
As mentioned in my previous reply to quest01 I think that a cost window might be fairly wide. With the success of the iPad mini do you think a $70 premium for a $399 iPad mIni with Retina Display is feasible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
No argument here. I would add that there is a thickness and weight window. I think it can get a little thicker and heavier without having a major affect on the UX, but I think that window is small, especially with weigh.
As mentioned in my previous reply to quest01 I think that a cost window might be fairly wide. With the success of the iPad mini do you think a $70 premium for a $399 iPad mIni with Retina Display is feasible?
I think a $399 iPad mini Retina is feasible as long as they lower the price of the iPad mini to $299 then we'd have the following;
iPad mini - starting @ $299
iPad mini Retina - starting @ $399
iPad Retina - starting @ $499
I don't see the iPad 2 sticking around come this holiday season, or even earlier. What I'd also like to see Apple do, at least for the retina models, is start the storage capacity @ 32GB instead of 16GB.
Originally Posted by johntan
Oh, because they started with the wrong screen size of 7.9 inch when it should be 7.85.
Except it isn't.
Originally Posted by johntan
Even then, isn't it obvious math that 326 should be the correct figure?
Also, you're wrong.
He's right. We've been through this before. Well, I've been through this before. Apple rounded up to the nearest tenth. It's not only easier than going to the hundredth but it's also the inverse 9.7, their other iPad size.
AI took this value from other site that used the 7.9" size to get 324 when figuring out the pixel density. Consider why Apple used the iPad mini size they did? it uses the 163.xx PPI of the original iPhone. Now consider how we got the Retina iPhone and iPod Touch. It's doubling the resolution which is 326.xx PPI. It's an exact doubling. Same thing with the iPad 2 to the iPad (3), except with an 132.xx to 264.xx PPI.
When they make the iPad mini Retina it will be 326.xx thus using the same process they have perfected back in 2010 with the iPhone 4.
PS: Note that the 3.5" and 4" iPhone and iPod Touch, and 9.7" iPad are not exactly those sizes, but rounded values.
I don't come close to paying 1200 a year for using the iPhone 5. I have no idea what you are comparing. Closer to 750/year on Verizon.
I pay much closer to $1200 per year:
Even if I kept my iPhone 5 for two years that's still:
I even get about 25% off my voice plan from Verizon.
Google - slapping a high resolution screen on a pile of crap doesn't make it better than the iPad mini.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I pay much closer to $1200 per year:
( $199 [16GB iPhone 5] + $99 [AC+] + 9% [tax] ) + $35 [Activation Fee] + [approx.] $90 x 12 = $1,439.82
Even if I kept my iPhone 5 for two years that's still:
( ( $199 [16GB iPhone 5] + $99 [AC+] + 9% [tax] ) + $35 [Activation Fee] ÷ 2 ) + [approx.] $90 x 12 = $1,242.41
I even get about 25% off my voice plan from Verizon.
How many minutes is your plan?
Unlimited voice and text, which I can't lower. I don't like talking 'on' the phone and I don't use SMS/MMS so it's mostly wasted on me.
I have 1GB of data even though I only use about 250MB. I can save $10/month by going to 300MB but that's cutting it too close.
My actual monthly fee with Verizon before any of the many taxes are added is $89 so it's actually close to $95 with the taxes applied.
It was cheaper when I was on AT&T but with the iPhone being LTE now Verizon is finally the faster option. However, I do miss SV&D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
... With the success of the iPad mini do you think a $70 premium for a $399 iPad mIni with Retina Display is feasible?
I don't see anyone paying "extra" for Retina. While a lot of people have gotten caught up in the retina hype, the average person sees it as something "cool" that they would like to have, but IMO they don't really see the big deal about it. If the Retina one costs more than a non-retina one and both models are available, I think the non-retina would be the biggest seller all other things being equal.
My prediction is that the next iPad mini will be twice as powerful as the predecessor with twice as much system RAM (as is typical with all iOS releases so far), it will have a Retina display (because it would be impossible not to given the competition at this stage), and it will be the same price as the current one.
Based on the parts leaks I've seen, it will probably be thicker (and probably heavier), but only by a smidge because again ... considering the context ... anything more than a millimetre or so thicker would be "outrageously thick" at this point.
I'm already a die-hard iPad mini user and wouldn't use anything else so I'm not really worried about it since I will likely buy whatever it is regardless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
How many nexi (nexuses?) have sold/shipped so far?
nexus - it's an u declination
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Could you restate that for me? Are you saying I'm incorrect in thinking Rogue 6 is likely to happen in the 2nd half of the year, at all, that it won't offer power savings, that I assumed it would be at the 32nm process or something else entirely?
I must have seen you implying it came with the Rogue 6 already, in which to my original comment I stated, ``Incorrect.'' Chalk it up to late hours. And yes, the Rogue 6 series is the direction for the next generation iOS devices.
http://www.imgtec.com/news/release/index.asp?NewsID=686
The real question is how Apple differentiates between the iPad Mini and iPad and the choice of 6 series being based upon the number of cores for the GPGPU.
Quote:
PowerVR G6200 and G6400 are designed to deliver the best performance at the smallest area possible for two and four cluster architectures respectively, while the PowerVR G6230 and G6430 ‘go all out’, adding incremental extra area for maximum performance whilst minimising power consumption.
I'm betting the custom Apple A series SoC for the mini Retina will house the PowerVR G6200 variant and the iPad Retina will house the Power VR G6400 variant that matches Apple's custom designed ARM which I think will be a 4 core A15 variant for the iPad and a 4 core A9 variant for the iPad mini.
You have to give distinct differentiation between the two, and with both being Retina based the main distinction outside of the form factor will be performance/watt and battery size.
I agree that the iPad and iPad mini both can become a tad thicker while not over straining the biggest whiners out there.
The iPad is 13.4 mm thick
The iPad 2 is 8.8 mm thick [obscenely thin]
The iPad 3/4 is 9.4 mm thick
If you take the average of both ends from the iPad to the iPad 2 you get 11.1 mm thickness which would accomodate more hardware capabilities and a bigger battery. Newer battery tech will be where the biggest area for weight balance is achievable. The extra thickness will give the feel a sweet spot in durability and not the feel of an overly thick piece of paper.
You can then move the iPad mini to the original thinness of the iPad 2 (8.8mm) making room for better sensors, cameras, bigger battery, etc., and a feeling it isn't a damn oversized thin mint.
It gives Apple the ability to make them using larger batteries and more CPU/GPGPU SoC cores and room for other circuitry like NFC and more.
Finally, it gives them more volume to let heat passively dissipate leaving the device cooler to the touch, even at full operation during game play.
I was just in an Apple store and looked at the iPad Mini again...and the size and particularly the weight difference between the Mini and the reg. iPad is amazing.
I know the iPad has more screen real estate than the mini, but the weight difference is wonderful. Mini for me...I hope then don't have to make it heavier or thicker just to have a Retina display. It that were the case, I would prefer no Retina.
Best
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I still contend that it'll be technically possible the 2nd half of this year (and only technically possible the 2nd half of this year if you want to maintain the current weight, thickness, and battery life windows), but that it's still up in the air since they started with a year old ASIC with the A5 instead of the A6 which makes me question whether Apple wants to use the most the current, state-of-the-art tech in the iPad mini.
We know it's generating less profit per unit and a lower profit margin than the larger iPad. I guess they could balance it out by making it more expensive than the non-Retina iPad (not unlike what they did with the Retina MBPs) but so far they've never done that with an iDevice specifically for going Retina.
For the sake of being thorough they do have two iPod Touches at scaled prices but both are Retina, it's a 2010 model at 3.5" v. 2012 at 4". Both are Retina but the 3.5" model only uses a TN panel instead of IPS. Since the iPad mini already uses an IPS panel that cost is already accounted for, as well an interest in the 7.85" size which has already far exceeded the original iPad sales which makes it the fastest selling Apple product and fastest selling CE in the world.
Based on all this info I'd say that they will offer a Retina model before Christmas but at an increased cost.
"and a lower profit margin"
There's some dispute about that:
"The IPad Mini Margin Myth"
http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/4549281-eric-rolfe/1353191-the-ipad-mini-margin-myth
In which case they COULD "make it up with volume"....
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126
I was just in an Apple store and looked at the iPad Mini again...and the size and particularly the weight difference between the Mini and the reg. iPad is amazing.
I know the iPad has more screen real estate than the mini, but the weight difference is wonderful. Mini for me...I hope then don't have to make it heavier or thicker just to have a Retina display. It that were the case, I would prefer no Retina.
Best
Yes that's why I'm hoping (expecting) the next full size iPad goes the mini design form, a definite possibility if it were to utilize the IGZO screen tech with it's lower power requirements.