According to the WSJ Ive and Greg Christie (VP of Human Interface) have "very different styles". Not sure if they mean personality wise or in terms of UI direction. Since Christie reports to Federighi and not Ive I wonder how much direction he'll take from Ive.
I'm curious to know more about these 'stealth' software designers that assisted with hardware prototypes. Did they work for Forstall or Federighi?
I don't get it. Your insult doesn't work with his post. You'd have to stop reading halfway through and completely ignore the fact that he's talking about how we don't know what the hell Ive means by "flat."
I think he posted without knowing exactly what I meant. I, too, do not know exactly what Jony Ive is referring to by using the term "flat" but if I apply the vernacular from my business, flat is non-dynamical or without emotion. I hope I don't know what I'm talking about, if you know what I mean.
Edit: I was a big boy, did my own homework and learned that flat UI design is pretty much the opposite of skeuomorphic design. So does this mean Jony is taking flat UI design cues from Microsoft's Metro.....and Android?
I think he posted without knowing exactly what I meant. I, too, do not know exactly what Jony Ive is referring to by using the term "flat" but if I apply the vernacular from my business, flat is non-dynamical or without emotion. I hope I don't know what I'm talking about, if you know what I mean.
I guess 'flat' could mean dead and featureless as a negative descriptive term, but in terms of a design 'style' it means less use of drop shadows, outlines (specially high contrast ones), less graduated and textured areas, and more of a two dimensional flat look. It's not exactly new. Drop shadows come under the umbrella of skeuomorphic design and are looked at as very 'old school' by many designers (for the last 20 years or so!)
Tasked with overseeing Apple's human interface efforts, Senior Vice President of Industrial Design Jony Ive has reportedly brought the company's hardware and mobile software design teams together in a push toward a simpler and more cohesive "flat design," according to a new report.
People familiar with Apple's daily operations told The Wall Street Journal that Ive has been briefing the human interface team on prototypes earlier than usual in hopes of fostering a collaborative environment, and to allow software engineers time to better take advantage of upcoming hardware. The new inter-office dynamic, called "a thawing," is a change from Apple's previous workflow, which largely kept iOS software and hardware designers separate.
Apple SVP of Industrial Design Jony Ive.
Ive, who took over human interface design duties in October after former iOS chief Scott Forstall was ousted in October, is reportedly looking to make Apple's software more in line with his minimalist hardware aesthetic. Developers who have spoken to Apple employees said the new "flat design" will be more simple than the current iteration of iOS, but failed to offer further details.
The publication noted that Ive is now sitting in on human interface design team meetings to add his perspective on new developments, but despite the added input, no drastic modifications to iOS are expected for the near future.
Following Ive's lead, SVP of Software Engineering Craig Federighi is also said to be moving his Mac teams toward a more collaborative process, but that change hasn't been as rapid. Sources claim Federighi plans to keep Mac and iOS teams separate for the time being, though one person expects the two groups to reorganize this summer.
If flat means Windows 8 crap that is nothing but different size and color post-its the idea sucks. If flat means the iOS and OS X teams work together to produce a common UI with not so much skeuomorphism but still some drop shadows and animation built into core I think we can have a very nice modern UI. If we go to Win8 or Android minimalist or clutter we are screwed. I don't see Jony going minimalist just for the sake of minimalist. It would not fit to have all square without an easing of the corners, IMHO. But Aqua has seen its day and this mix and match hodge-podge of Aqua, brushed metal, skeuomorphism, and random artsy-fartsy interface is for the birds. One of the best things about the Mac/NeXT machines is you didn't need a manual for the basic 85%, you just new how it worked -- it would be great if more of that crossed over with iOS and OS X so they are not exactly the same but have an identity that says Apple. Microsoft tried this -- just badly.
Lets see what Jony Ive has to show us before we guess what flat means, yell come on everyone, stop yelling "Apple is Doomed"!
I guess 'flat' could mean dead and featureless as a negative descriptive term, but in terms of a design 'style' it means less use of drop shadows, outlines (specially high contrast ones), less graduated and textured areas, and more of a two dimensional flat look. It's not exactly new. Drop shadows come under the umbrella of skeuomorphic design and are looked at as very 'old school' by many designers (for the last 20 years or so!)
Adding to what you're saying here is what I believe is a screenshot of Mac OS X 10.1. Between brushed metal and full blown aqua buttons, as well as the the other attempts to give a raised, 3D effect to items it's just very outdated looking. I remember how impressive it all way when it first came out but it had it's time and served its purpose, and we've seen Apple slowly (and I mean slowly) move away from the most eye-popping efforts.
I've seen it referenced — I think by a forum member on the site — that with much better displays from higher pixel densities, to IPS tech, to brighter backlights, and more accurate color reproduction that the need for these somewhat comical effects have lost their potency and usefulness.
Adding to what you're saying here is what I believe is a screenshot of Mac OS X 10.1. Between brushed metal and full blown aqua buttons, as well as the the other attempts to give a raised, 3D effect to items it's just very outdated looking. I remember how impressive it all way when it first came out but it had it's time and served its purpose, and we've seen Apple slowly (and I mean slowly) move away from the most eye-popping efforts.
I've seen it referenced — I think by a forum member on the site — that with much better displays from higher pixel densities, to IPS tech, to brighter backlights, and more accurate color reproduction that the need for these somewhat comical effects have lost their potency and usefulness.
I hope they don't bring back that flat dock in the picture above. I agree with SX's previous post. There are some 3D items like the 3D OSX dock and iOS iBooks page turning that are great and some that are not so great. I'm sure we could endlessly debate each one but in Ive we must trust.
"iOS needs a little of this, all the shiny glass effect is getting a little old."
An interface should be attractive (whatever that means to you and you and you and me) as you're going to look at it every time you use the device. It should allow you to achieve what's needed in the most elegant way without getting in the way. The rest is fashion.
Old? The sistine chapel and the Mona Lisa are old but I don't hear people complaining! If iOS had begun flat like Android (as I believe it is not having studied one myself) or Windows phones and then they started bringing in more rounded and glossy styles then people would be saying ""iOS needs a little of this, all this matt texture is getting a little old." People on this board (bored?) have said that they may "consider a Samsung phone next as iOS is looking tired now".
Fashion is in. Then out. Then in. Now you can be retro cool and have what was derided 10 years ago and pay a fortune for it. At the time of course it's never fashion, it's just the way things make sense.
There seems to be a fashion in newer iOS apps for stripping out interface elements and using gestures. That could work as long as each app maker agrees on what all these new gestures should do otherwise it's back to the 70s when each application was an exciting path of discovery as you worked out how to quit because nothing in the previously used application would give you any guidance at all. As I recall, they had a fairly "flat" interface with no menus, mice, icons or gestures. No that's really minimal design.
... how do you quit iPhoto and how do quit Safari? iPhoto has adopted the Windows' way which I have to say I have always preferred in spite of Cmd-Q now being hardwired into my hand finger muscle memory.
Err, Command-Q
iPhoto, like Aperture, System Preferences and other applications have only one window and when you close that window the app quits. Safari, like Numbers, Pages and so on can have multiple windows and so closing one does not quit the application.
If that's what you're referring to. It's always been that way as far as I know.
According to the WSJ Ive and Greg Christie (VP of Human Interface) have "very different styles". Not sure if they mean personality wise or in terms of UI direction. Since Christie reports to Federighi and not Ive I wonder how much direction he'll take from Ive.
I'm curious to know more about these 'stealth' software designers that assisted with hardware prototypes. Did they work for Forstall or Federighi?
Possibly neither. At least in the past, a project team would be put together for a new product of significance, pulling talent from any group necessary. The team would report to its leader, who would report directly to Jobs.
Old? The sistine chapel and the Mona Lisa are old but I don't hear people complaining!
If there is no history behind them and we are not taught from grade 1 about the marvels of these masterpieces, would they still be held in such high regard?
Damn_Its_Hot: "not so much skeuomorphism but still some drop shadows and animation"
Isn't that called 'Almost Flat'? <-serious question
(Sorry, not sure how to partially quote)
There seems to be misunderstanding here that the foundation of flat design is primarily about removing shadows, sheen and figurative metaphors. That would be wrong.
If there is no history behind them and we are not taught from grade 1 about the marvels of these masterpieces, would they still be held in such high regard?
The sistine chapel would be a marvel without pre-knowledge or history. Mona Lisa ... that's interesting one to ponder.
Comments
According to the WSJ Ive and Greg Christie (VP of Human Interface) have "very different styles". Not sure if they mean personality wise or in terms of UI direction. Since Christie reports to Federighi and not Ive I wonder how much direction he'll take from Ive.
I'm curious to know more about these 'stealth' software designers that assisted with hardware prototypes. Did they work for Forstall or Federighi?
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
I don't get it. Your insult doesn't work with his post. You'd have to stop reading halfway through and completely ignore the fact that he's talking about how we don't know what the hell Ive means by "flat."
I think he posted without knowing exactly what I meant. I, too, do not know exactly what Jony Ive is referring to by using the term "flat" but if I apply the vernacular from my business, flat is non-dynamical or without emotion. I hope I don't know what I'm talking about, if you know what I mean.
Edit: I was a big boy, did my own homework and learned that flat UI design is pretty much the opposite of skeuomorphic design. So does this mean Jony is taking flat UI design cues from Microsoft's Metro.....and Android?
Maybe it's like flats they refer to as apartments in the UK?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
Tasked with overseeing Apple's human interface efforts, Senior Vice President of Industrial Design Jony Ive has reportedly brought the company's hardware and mobile software design teams together in a push toward a simpler and more cohesive "flat design," according to a new report.
People familiar with Apple's daily operations told The Wall Street Journal that Ive has been briefing the human interface team on prototypes earlier than usual in hopes of fostering a collaborative environment, and to allow software engineers time to better take advantage of upcoming hardware. The new inter-office dynamic, called "a thawing," is a change from Apple's previous workflow, which largely kept iOS software and hardware designers separate.
Apple SVP of Industrial Design Jony Ive.
Ive, who took over human interface design duties in October after former iOS chief Scott Forstall was ousted in October, is reportedly looking to make Apple's software more in line with his minimalist hardware aesthetic. Developers who have spoken to Apple employees said the new "flat design" will be more simple than the current iteration of iOS, but failed to offer further details.
The publication noted that Ive is now sitting in on human interface design team meetings to add his perspective on new developments, but despite the added input, no drastic modifications to iOS are expected for the near future.
Following Ive's lead, SVP of Software Engineering Craig Federighi is also said to be moving his Mac teams toward a more collaborative process, but that change hasn't been as rapid. Sources claim Federighi plans to keep Mac and iOS teams separate for the time being, though one person expects the two groups to reorganize this summer.
If flat means Windows 8 crap that is nothing but different size and color post-its the idea sucks. If flat means the iOS and OS X teams work together to produce a common UI with not so much skeuomorphism but still some drop shadows and animation built into core I think we can have a very nice modern UI. If we go to Win8 or Android minimalist or clutter we are screwed. I don't see Jony going minimalist just for the sake of minimalist. It would not fit to have all square without an easing of the corners, IMHO. But Aqua has seen its day and this mix and match hodge-podge of Aqua, brushed metal, skeuomorphism, and random artsy-fartsy interface is for the birds. One of the best things about the Mac/NeXT machines is you didn't need a manual for the basic 85%, you just new how it worked -- it would be great if more of that crossed over with iOS and OS X so they are not exactly the same but have an identity that says Apple. Microsoft tried this -- just badly.
Lets see what Jony Ive has to show us before we guess what flat means, yell come on everyone, stop yelling "Apple is Doomed"!
Adding to what you're saying here is what I believe is a screenshot of Mac OS X 10.1. Between brushed metal and full blown aqua buttons, as well as the the other attempts to give a raised, 3D effect to items it's just very outdated looking. I remember how impressive it all way when it first came out but it had it's time and served its purpose, and we've seen Apple slowly (and I mean slowly) move away from the most eye-popping efforts.
I've seen it referenced — I think by a forum member on the site — that with much better displays from higher pixel densities, to IPS tech, to brighter backlights, and more accurate color reproduction that the need for these somewhat comical effects have lost their potency and usefulness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Check this out via Gruber:
http://hypercritical.co/2013/03/08/the-case-for-a-true-mac-pro-successor
Very inspirational reading - that from the perspective of a Mac Pro owner.
Inspirational...
That was the exact word I came up with while reading the article!
Also, I had the impression that the subject of the article could have been almost anything -- it was so well presented...
Now, that's a UX.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Adding to what you're saying here is what I believe is a screenshot of Mac OS X 10.1. Between brushed metal and full blown aqua buttons, as well as the the other attempts to give a raised, 3D effect to items it's just very outdated looking. I remember how impressive it all way when it first came out but it had it's time and served its purpose, and we've seen Apple slowly (and I mean slowly) move away from the most eye-popping efforts.
I've seen it referenced — I think by a forum member on the site — that with much better displays from higher pixel densities, to IPS tech, to brighter backlights, and more accurate color reproduction that the need for these somewhat comical effects have lost their potency and usefulness.
I hope they don't bring back that flat dock in the picture above. I agree with SX's previous post. There are some 3D items like the 3D OSX dock and iOS iBooks page turning that are great and some that are not so great. I'm sure we could endlessly debate each one but in Ive we must trust.
Isn't that called 'Almost Flat'? <-serious question
(Sorry, not sure how to partially quote)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82
Uh, I don't want iOS to be MORE simple. I just want to be able to upload a damn PDF file to the Internet after 6 years...
I think they mean simpler design not simpler functionality.
"iOS needs a little of this, all the shiny glass effect is getting a little old."
An interface should be attractive (whatever that means to you and you and you and me) as you're going to look at it every time you use the device. It should allow you to achieve what's needed in the most elegant way without getting in the way. The rest is fashion.
Old? The sistine chapel and the Mona Lisa are old but I don't hear people complaining! If iOS had begun flat like Android (as I believe it is not having studied one myself) or Windows phones and then they started bringing in more rounded and glossy styles then people would be saying ""iOS needs a little of this, all this matt texture is getting a little old." People on this board (bored?) have said that they may "consider a Samsung phone next as iOS is looking tired now".
Fashion is in. Then out. Then in. Now you can be retro cool and have what was derided 10 years ago and pay a fortune for it. At the time of course it's never fashion, it's just the way things make sense.
There seems to be a fashion in newer iOS apps for stripping out interface elements and using gestures. That could work as long as each app maker agrees on what all these new gestures should do otherwise it's back to the 70s when each application was an exciting path of discovery as you worked out how to quit because nothing in the previously used application would give you any guidance at all. As I recall, they had a fairly "flat" interface with no menus, mice, icons or gestures. No that's really minimal design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman
... how do you quit iPhoto and how do quit Safari? iPhoto has adopted the Windows' way which I have to say I have always preferred in spite of Cmd-Q now being hardwired into my hand finger muscle memory.
Err, Command-Q
iPhoto, like Aperture, System Preferences and other applications have only one window and when you close that window the app quits. Safari, like Numbers, Pages and so on can have multiple windows and so closing one does not quit the application.
If that's what you're referring to. It's always been that way as far as I know.
Ive is a hardware guy, what does he really know about software design?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
According to the WSJ Ive and Greg Christie (VP of Human Interface) have "very different styles". Not sure if they mean personality wise or in terms of UI direction. Since Christie reports to Federighi and not Ive I wonder how much direction he'll take from Ive.
I'm curious to know more about these 'stealth' software designers that assisted with hardware prototypes. Did they work for Forstall or Federighi?
Possibly neither. At least in the past, a project team would be put together for a new product of significance, pulling talent from any group necessary. The team would report to its leader, who would report directly to Jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen
Old? The sistine chapel and the Mona Lisa are old but I don't hear people complaining!
If there is no history behind them and we are not taught from grade 1 about the marvels of these masterpieces, would they still be held in such high regard?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziadjk
Damn_Its_Hot: "not so much skeuomorphism but still some drop shadows and animation"
Isn't that called 'Almost Flat'? <-serious question
(Sorry, not sure how to partially quote)
There seems to be misunderstanding here that the foundation of flat design is primarily about removing shadows, sheen and figurative metaphors. That would be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater
If there is no history behind them and we are not taught from grade 1 about the marvels of these masterpieces, would they still be held in such high regard?
The sistine chapel would be a marvel without pre-knowledge or history. Mona Lisa ... that's interesting one to ponder.