Since you discredit the entire article I don't expect you to agree with the statement below quoted from the article that Apple is not using Core Data in document type apps for syncing, which is how I would characterize iWork apps. I seems more likely they are using file syncing.
I discredited the article because there were no facts. Just silly innuendo and a couple of developers complaining. No evidence of widespread problems or how many people are affected.
I discredited your post for the same reason. OP said that his apps worked fine - and you immediately said that's because Apple doesn't use CoreData. No facts, no evidence - just your continued FUD about Apple. Where's the evidence that Apple doesn't use CoreData? And where's the evidence that that's why iWork doesn't have problems? And where's the evidence that any significant number of people DO have problems?
Well I'm only quoting the article and combined that information with other articles on the net posted by actual developers wrestling with inexplicable loss of data using Core Data. Of course well reasoned documentation from several credible sources is always trumped by a single anonymous naive poster on AI. Since some developers are having an issue with it, I can think of only one reason that the problem is not widespread: The developers have not released any apps using Core Data to sync to iCloud, perhaps, because they can't rely on it yet.
Edit: According to Apple's developer tech documentation, it states that Keynote and Numbers use Core Data syncing to iCloud. I'm watching the relevant developer videos right now so I can verify the actual methodology.
FYI, Apple released Core Data in 2004 at WWDC with the Tiger Preview. (have the wwdc videos to prove it).
On a side note, my experience with iCloud and Core Data has been positive as of late. When it first came out it wasn't working AT ALL. Even last year around WWDC we were still running into many issues. But lately it's been working as expected going from iOS to iOS device. We still run into issues going Mac -> iOS though, but not very frequent.
Well I'm only quoting the article and combined that information with other articles on the net posted by actual developers wrestling with inexplicable loss of data using Core Data. Of course well reasoned documentation from several credible sources is always trumped by a single anonymous naive poster on AI. Since some developers are having an issue with it, I can think of only one reason that the problem is not widespread: The developers have not released any apps using Core Data to sync to iCloud, perhaps, because they can't rely on it yet.
Where's the "reasoned documentation from several credible sources"? Maybe you can point out the evidence as to how many people are affected and where someone has identified an actual flaw in the system?
It's the same as the Maps nonsense. A few people whine about a 'problem' and people like you jump on the bandwagon and start spreading FUD about how bad it is - even without a single shred of quantitative data showing it to be any worse than the alternatives. Apparently, in your FUD-filled mind, simply saying something bad about Apple makes it true - and means that every human being on the planet should start screaming about it, as well.
Edit: According to Apple's developer tech documentation, it states that Keynote and Numbers use Core Data syncing to iCloud. I'm watching the relevant developer videos right now so I can verify the actual methodology.
Soooo, why does Dropbox just work? And why does it work across all platforms?
...
I disagree with mstone that ubiquitous internet connect is necessary. ...
Dropbox doesn't alway "just work". Dealing with "conflicted" documents can be a headache. Things like Office's autosave feature can make it even worse.
iCloud isn't perfect, and they do need to work out the core data issues (although, bi- or multi-directional database syncing is not a trivial issue, especially when network connections are not continuous (and even when they are)), but what does work works well.
I do agree that cloud solutions for personal use that require internet connections just to access the data are not the solution. (Good luck with Google solutions on the subway.) Those are just remote database access solutions, and barely even deserve the designation "cloud". iCloud's approach is the correct solution, they just need work out some of the remaining issues. I'm confident that they will, but some of them are not easy problems to solve.
Where's the "reasoned documentation from several credible sources"? Maybe you can point out the evidence as to how many people are affected and where someone has identified an actual flaw in the system?
I did a search on Google and Apple. You could too instead of asking me to post links. You wouldn't read them anyway since you apparently already know everything.
I was looking into the statement in the article that Apple has not used SQLite databases to sync to iCloud. As indicated in the documentation there are two different ways to sync to iCloud using CoreData: Library and Document. In the library method you are supposed to use SQLite but in the document method you use atomic, which is apparently what Keynote and Numbers do, however in either case it is recommended that you use the local storage or iCloud storage but not both. If you choose iCloud only, your data will not show up unless you are connected to the Internet and signed into iCloud so it is unclear how Apple is doing a combination of the two because they recommend against doing that with CoreData in the documentation. The developer posts I have read they are trying to do this very thing but no examples are given in the Apple developer code snippets. Using file sync is trivial for using both iCloud and local, but that is not at issue in this discussion.
I did a search on Google and Apple. You could too instead of asking me to post links. You wouldn't read them anyway since you apparently already know everything.
I was looking into the statement in the article that Apple has not used SQLite databases to sync to iCloud. As indicated in the documentation there are two different ways to sync to iCloud using CoreData: Library and Document. In the library method you are supposed to use SQLite but in the document method you use atomic, which is apparently what Keynote and Numbers do, however in either case it is recommended that you use the local storage or iCloud storage but not both. If you choose iCloud only, your data will not show up unless you are connected to the Internet and signed into iCloud so it is unclear how Apple is doing a combination of the two because they recommend against doing that with CoreData in the documentation. The developer posts I have read they are trying to do this very thing but no examples are given in the Apple developer code snippets. Using file sync is trivial for using both iCloud and local, but that is not at issue in this discussion.
It's SQLite at all times on iOS, yet it can be multiple types on OS X. plists (XML), Sqlite, or anything that Apple chooses. They reserve the right to change it at any time with Core Data. It being SQLite is supposed to be behind the scenes.
Edit: Was on the phone, shouldn't have been positing as I completely missed your point
I'm not sure what you mean you are supposed to use SQLite for Library method. You don't directly interact with SQLite, you use a managed object context to do all the communication with your data structure (which could be SQLite, XML, etc).
You still have a data model on your device when utilizing iCloud / Core Data. It syncs only when it gets a connection. In fact, they've even worked it to where you don't even have to go out to their servers, iCloud is smart enough to sync through your LAN if all devices are on the same Network. Apple has a "Last to store wins" rule as well.
I did a search on Google and Apple. You could too instead of asking me to post links. You wouldn't read them anyway since you apparently already know everything.
You're the one who made the claim, it's up to you to back it up.
But you apparently don't understand that. You think that you can spread FUD all day and everyone is supposed to simply accept it without question. Unfortunately, for you, it doesn't work that way.
As a developer, my main problem with iCloud isn't even its reliability, but rather the fact that there is no public API to access its content from the web. This means that even if it does become reliable, anything stored on iCloud cannot be accessed outside of iOS or OS X apps. Many apps want to offer a companion web service sharing account info, app data and so on. For me, this is the real showstopper: imagine Dropbox without the web access! Ironically, Apple's own apps (Mail, Calendar) DO access iCloud from their web interface!... Oh well.
It's SQLite at all times on iOS, yet it can be multiple types on OS X. plists (XML), Sqlite, or anything that Apple chooses. They reserve the right to change it at any time with Core Data. It being SQLite is supposed to be behind the scenes.
True about iOS but some applications such as Numbers, etc. have both an OS X and an iOS version.
You're the one who made the claim, it's up to you to back it up.
But you apparently don't understand that. You think that you can spread FUD all day and everyone is supposed to simply accept it without question. Unfortunately, for you, it doesn't work that way.
Any of the 206,000 documents returned by this Google search: icloud core data problems
or the dozens of posts on the iOS Developer forums which I am not allowed to post links to.
Maybe I am just a Mac simpleton but somehow Apple manages to do this splendidly with the iWork suite (Pages, Numbers, and Keynote); moreover, I use GoodReader and Scanner Pro with iCloud to great success.
It sounds a lot like some "developers" do not want to put in the homework to make their apps work properly, but that's just my conjecture.
As noted in the post just above yours there are two methods of syncing: Core Data and file syncing. Core Data is the one that is being criticized. The examples you mentioned are most likely using the file syncing method which is working fine, perhaps because it is a lot easier to do. Syncing rows of a database is done by updating specific rows using SQL queries to change data objects, which is incrementally more difficult than simply overwriting a file.
Any of the 206,000 documents returned by this Google search: icloud core data problems
Foolishness. I hope you've simply left off the quotation marks for the purpose of unnecessary truncation. I get ~48,000 with [iCloud "Core Data" problems] in Google and ~1,600 in Bing with the same.
Of course, neither of these searches are in and of themselves useful in determining anything meaningful about the state of affairs, so I'm not sure why you'd even bring it up.
Search "Google bankruptcy" and you'll get ~51,200,000 and ~580,000 on the big G and B, respectively.
But the dates on those results should be noted. IMO, it's much improved since iOS 6. Perfect? Hell no, but I don't expect it that quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Originally Posted by mstone
Any of the 206,000 documents returned by this Google search: icloud core data problems
Foolishness.
Sorry I was just being flippant. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion about the topic at hand with out criticizing anyone, or Apple and some jackass keeps stalking me. Very annoying. I have not used iCloud syncing however I did do some research on it at Apple Developer and watched the WWDC videos as well as read some recent blogs, 30 of which show up on the first page of the proposed Google search with every one being relevant to the topic of this thread. This guy is just in a completely unprovoked attack mode.
Who pissed in your cornflakes today? Way to cover their ass for them. Good job!
And oh yes..I'm just a troll because I badmouthed Apple! *gasps* God forbid Apple not do something right and they get called out on it. Never mind the countless times iCloud goes down, the fact that both .mac and mobileme were complete failures, etc, etc. But I'm a troll.... *rolls eyes* I guess I should now say to stop drinking so much koolaid.
And since my signature bothers you so much, I'll leave it there...maybe I'll make it bold too so it stands out more just to piss you off.
I'll ignore most of your post because you didn't bother to actually address any of the points I made, instead of just resorting to attacking me. Apple doesn't need me to defend them, but what people like you need is some perspective, and I was attempting to give that to you. Unfortunately, instead of reflecting on it, and aknowledging that your statement of "Apple sucks at the cloud and always will" is flat out wrong, you bring out obsolete software services like .mac and mobileme which do not exist anymore, just to pad whatever non-point that you had. I never suggested Apple's cloud services are absolutely perfect, because they are not, but that doesn't mean that they're the other extreme. You never aknowledged the fact that that noone is attempting to do what Apple is doing, so you have absolutely nothing to compare it to to prove it's subpar. Noone in the industry that knows their head from their ass believes Apple is incompetent with cloud services. Quite the opposite, most of the industry has continually emulated the steps Apple has taken. You take offense to calling you a troll, but how is "Apple sucks at the cloud AND ALWAYS WILL" not a completely trollish statement? The company that pretty much pioneered and popularized so many cloud services that are standard today? As far as iCloud, noone is even attempting or executing anything close to the scale of what Apple is doing in the cloud.
As for your signature, it's cool that your motivation for leaving it is to bother me, but I guarantee you it has a negative effect on every single other person on this board, and you still haven't answered me question, and articulated WHY we need to know the specs of YOUR computer, when none of us think it's important enough to post the specs of whatever computer we have in every single post and making posts tougher to read for everyone else for absolutely no reason. You're one of these people that yells really loudly but actually has nothing of substance to say, except mindless attacks.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Since you discredit the entire article I don't expect you to agree with the statement below quoted from the article that Apple is not using Core Data in document type apps for syncing, which is how I would characterize iWork apps. I seems more likely they are using file syncing.
I discredited the article because there were no facts. Just silly innuendo and a couple of developers complaining. No evidence of widespread problems or how many people are affected.
I discredited your post for the same reason. OP said that his apps worked fine - and you immediately said that's because Apple doesn't use CoreData. No facts, no evidence - just your continued FUD about Apple. Where's the evidence that Apple doesn't use CoreData? And where's the evidence that that's why iWork doesn't have problems? And where's the evidence that any significant number of people DO have problems?
Well I'm only quoting the article and combined that information with other articles on the net posted by actual developers wrestling with inexplicable loss of data using Core Data. Of course well reasoned documentation from several credible sources is always trumped by a single anonymous naive poster on AI. Since some developers are having an issue with it, I can think of only one reason that the problem is not widespread: The developers have not released any apps using Core Data to sync to iCloud, perhaps, because they can't rely on it yet.
Edit: According to Apple's developer tech documentation, it states that Keynote and Numbers use Core Data syncing to iCloud. I'm watching the relevant developer videos right now so I can verify the actual methodology.
On a side note, my experience with iCloud and Core Data has been positive as of late. When it first came out it wasn't working AT ALL. Even last year around WWDC we were still running into many issues. But lately it's been working as expected going from iOS to iOS device. We still run into issues going Mac -> iOS though, but not very frequent.
Where's the "reasoned documentation from several credible sources"? Maybe you can point out the evidence as to how many people are affected and where someone has identified an actual flaw in the system?
It's the same as the Maps nonsense. A few people whine about a 'problem' and people like you jump on the bandwagon and start spreading FUD about how bad it is - even without a single shred of quantitative data showing it to be any worse than the alternatives. Apparently, in your FUD-filled mind, simply saying something bad about Apple makes it true - and means that every human being on the planet should start screaming about it, as well.
So you were wrong. Not surprising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
So you were wrong. Not surprising.
I am not afraid to admit it when I discover it unlike some people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMoeller
Soooo, why does Dropbox just work? And why does it work across all platforms?
...
I disagree with mstone that ubiquitous internet connect is necessary. ...
Dropbox doesn't alway "just work". Dealing with "conflicted" documents can be a headache. Things like Office's autosave feature can make it even worse.
iCloud isn't perfect, and they do need to work out the core data issues (although, bi- or multi-directional database syncing is not a trivial issue, especially when network connections are not continuous (and even when they are)), but what does work works well.
I do agree that cloud solutions for personal use that require internet connections just to access the data are not the solution. (Good luck with Google solutions on the subway.) Those are just remote database access solutions, and barely even deserve the designation "cloud". iCloud's approach is the correct solution, they just need work out some of the remaining issues. I'm confident that they will, but some of them are not easy problems to solve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Where's the "reasoned documentation from several credible sources"? Maybe you can point out the evidence as to how many people are affected and where someone has identified an actual flaw in the system?
I did a search on Google and Apple. You could too instead of asking me to post links. You wouldn't read them anyway since you apparently already know everything.
I was looking into the statement in the article that Apple has not used SQLite databases to sync to iCloud. As indicated in the documentation there are two different ways to sync to iCloud using CoreData: Library and Document. In the library method you are supposed to use SQLite but in the document method you use atomic, which is apparently what Keynote and Numbers do, however in either case it is recommended that you use the local storage or iCloud storage but not both. If you choose iCloud only, your data will not show up unless you are connected to the Internet and signed into iCloud so it is unclear how Apple is doing a combination of the two because they recommend against doing that with CoreData in the documentation. The developer posts I have read they are trying to do this very thing but no examples are given in the Apple developer code snippets. Using file sync is trivial for using both iCloud and local, but that is not at issue in this discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I did a search on Google and Apple. You could too instead of asking me to post links. You wouldn't read them anyway since you apparently already know everything.
I was looking into the statement in the article that Apple has not used SQLite databases to sync to iCloud. As indicated in the documentation there are two different ways to sync to iCloud using CoreData: Library and Document. In the library method you are supposed to use SQLite but in the document method you use atomic, which is apparently what Keynote and Numbers do, however in either case it is recommended that you use the local storage or iCloud storage but not both. If you choose iCloud only, your data will not show up unless you are connected to the Internet and signed into iCloud so it is unclear how Apple is doing a combination of the two because they recommend against doing that with CoreData in the documentation. The developer posts I have read they are trying to do this very thing but no examples are given in the Apple developer code snippets. Using file sync is trivial for using both iCloud and local, but that is not at issue in this discussion.
It's SQLite at all times on iOS, yet it can be multiple types on OS X. plists (XML), Sqlite, or anything that Apple chooses. They reserve the right to change it at any time with Core Data. It being SQLite is supposed to be behind the scenes.
Edit: Was on the phone, shouldn't have been positing as I completely missed your point
I'm not sure what you mean you are supposed to use SQLite for Library method. You don't directly interact with SQLite, you use a managed object context to do all the communication with your data structure (which could be SQLite, XML, etc).
You still have a data model on your device when utilizing iCloud / Core Data. It syncs only when it gets a connection. In fact, they've even worked it to where you don't even have to go out to their servers, iCloud is smart enough to sync through your LAN if all devices are on the same Network. Apple has a "Last to store wins" rule as well.
You're the one who made the claim, it's up to you to back it up.
But you apparently don't understand that. You think that you can spread FUD all day and everyone is supposed to simply accept it without question. Unfortunately, for you, it doesn't work that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647
It's SQLite at all times on iOS, yet it can be multiple types on OS X. plists (XML), Sqlite, or anything that Apple chooses. They reserve the right to change it at any time with Core Data. It being SQLite is supposed to be behind the scenes.
True about iOS but some applications such as Numbers, etc. have both an OS X and an iOS version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
True about iOS but some applications such as Numbers, etc. have both an OS X and an iOS version.
Sorry for the ninja edit post. I edited, let me know if you want to add anything since I didn't do you or me any favors by posting early
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
You're the one who made the claim, it's up to you to back it up.
But you apparently don't understand that. You think that you can spread FUD all day and everyone is supposed to simply accept it without question. Unfortunately, for you, it doesn't work that way.
Any of the 206,000 documents returned by this Google search: icloud core data problems
or the dozens of posts on the iOS Developer forums which I am not allowed to post links to.
Agreed. They continue to tarnish their reputation in many ways.
They need to stop talking about how "perfect" they are.
Now, my MacBook Pro is awesome, along with my iPhone 4S.
They have those two things right for sure.
iOS is a different matter, along with other things.
Perhaps the best, most detailed explanation of the problems that I've seen:
The Gathering Storm: Our Travails with iCloud Sync
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Any of the 206,000 documents returned by this Google search: icloud core data problems
or the dozens of posts on the iOS Developer forums which I am not allowed to post links to.
But the dates on those results should be noted. IMO, it's much improved since iOS 6. Perfect? Hell no, but I don't expect it that quickly.
I think the problem is a corrupted .mdb file.
Originally Posted by mstone
Any of the 206,000 documents returned by this Google search: icloud core data problems
Foolishness. I hope you've simply left off the quotation marks for the purpose of unnecessary truncation. I get ~48,000 with [iCloud "Core Data" problems] in Google and ~1,600 in Bing with the same.
Of course, neither of these searches are in and of themselves useful in determining anything meaningful about the state of affairs, so I'm not sure why you'd even bring it up.
Search "Google bankruptcy" and you'll get ~51,200,000 and ~580,000 on the big G and B, respectively.
It's utterly meaningless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647
But the dates on those results should be noted. IMO, it's much improved since iOS 6. Perfect? Hell no, but I don't expect it that quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Originally Posted by mstone
Any of the 206,000 documents returned by this Google search: icloud core data problems
Foolishness.
Sorry I was just being flippant. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion about the topic at hand with out criticizing anyone, or Apple and some jackass keeps stalking me. Very annoying. I have not used iCloud syncing however I did do some research on it at Apple Developer and watched the WWDC videos as well as read some recent blogs, 30 of which show up on the first page of the proposed Google search with every one being relevant to the topic of this thread. This guy is just in a completely unprovoked attack mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress
Who pissed in your cornflakes today? Way to cover their ass for them. Good job!
And oh yes..I'm just a troll because I badmouthed Apple! *gasps* God forbid Apple not do something right and they get called out on it. Never mind the countless times iCloud goes down, the fact that both .mac and mobileme were complete failures, etc, etc. But I'm a troll.... *rolls eyes* I guess I should now say to stop drinking so much koolaid.
And since my signature bothers you so much, I'll leave it there...maybe I'll make it bold too so it stands out more just to piss you off.
I'll ignore most of your post because you didn't bother to actually address any of the points I made, instead of just resorting to attacking me. Apple doesn't need me to defend them, but what people like you need is some perspective, and I was attempting to give that to you. Unfortunately, instead of reflecting on it, and aknowledging that your statement of "Apple sucks at the cloud and always will" is flat out wrong, you bring out obsolete software services like .mac and mobileme which do not exist anymore, just to pad whatever non-point that you had. I never suggested Apple's cloud services are absolutely perfect, because they are not, but that doesn't mean that they're the other extreme. You never aknowledged the fact that that noone is attempting to do what Apple is doing, so you have absolutely nothing to compare it to to prove it's subpar. Noone in the industry that knows their head from their ass believes Apple is incompetent with cloud services. Quite the opposite, most of the industry has continually emulated the steps Apple has taken. You take offense to calling you a troll, but how is "Apple sucks at the cloud AND ALWAYS WILL" not a completely trollish statement? The company that pretty much pioneered and popularized so many cloud services that are standard today? As far as iCloud, noone is even attempting or executing anything close to the scale of what Apple is doing in the cloud.
As for your signature, it's cool that your motivation for leaving it is to bother me, but I guarantee you it has a negative effect on every single other person on this board, and you still haven't answered me question, and articulated WHY we need to know the specs of YOUR computer, when none of us think it's important enough to post the specs of whatever computer we have in every single post and making posts tougher to read for everyone else for absolutely no reason. You're one of these people that yells really loudly but actually has nothing of substance to say, except mindless attacks.