AFAIK, this is NOT a tradition of Chinese businesses. In part, this is because most (all?) Chinese businesses are at least partly state-owned.
Well in keeping with Chinese tradition, they did execute two milk company executives for the melamine tainted milk scandal in 2009. Probably not for being responsible for killing hundreds of babies and and causing thousands more to suffer from kidney stones, but because it shamed the Chinese government.
It was later suggested that it was actually the lax inspection and regulation standards of the Chinese government that caused the problem as that just opened the door for the opportunistic ingredient suppliers to tamper with the formula. The milk company was not knowingly providing a tainted product, they just purchased an ingredient with the best protein rating, not knowing that the high protein was actually due to added melamine, a nitrogen fertilizer compound.
You know what. Even though I criticized Apple yesterday, I agree with you that this is the best move for Apple, from a business perspective, and sometimes you just have to suck it up, even though you know that what you are doing is pathetic when dealing with certain alien cultures and extremely authoritarian regimes.
So while I agree that this is probably the right thing for Apple to do, I still think that China's government is complete crap, bordering on evil, and I don't think that people should refrain from criticizing them.
So when US government forcefully moved an Indian tribe away from North Carolin is not evil? When US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1880s is not crap? When Martin Luther King pleaded for civil rights, what kind of society the blacks were living in? Wasn't US a democratic nation at those times?
So when US government forcefully moved an Indian tribe away from North Carolin is not evil? When US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1880s is not crap? When Martin Luther King pleaded for civil rights, what kind of society the blacks were living in? Wasn't US a democratic nation at those times?
I'm not interested in getting into a ridiculous comparison between the USA VS China. The USA is definitely not perfect, but here's one big difference:
In China, the commies are in charge and you can't get rid of them. You don't have any choice, they're going to be around and in control, no matter what you do.
In the USA, you can at least vote the bastards out of office. To give an example, I don't like Obama or his amateurish policies, but the good news is that the Keynesian is on his last term, and then he'll finally be gone.
So when US government forcefully moved an Indian tribe away from North Carolin is not evil? When US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1880s is not crap? When Martin Luther King pleaded for civil rights, what kind of society the blacks were living in? Wasn't US a democratic nation at those times?
You keep comparing the current US government to the shortcomings of decades and centuries ago. Yes, they had a couple hundred year head start on China in terms of forming a modern government and clearly the US is not without faults but that doesn't mean the Chinese have to reinvent the wheel. Surely they should have learned from the US mistakes. But the more likely scenario is that they did learn from the mistakes but attributed them to the inherent problems of governing a free people, hence they decided to try a different solution and copied Russia's Communism. Now they are trying to mix in free enterprise which leaves them with no philosophical guidance because of the conflicting interests of the two ideals. I have a feeling this will not turn out well.
International companies trying to break in to the Chinese market are routinely criticized by state-controlled media, forcing apologies like the one Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook gave this week.
It's because of many things, but here are two of my theories:
1. The Chinese government needs to do everything they can to make it look like they're acting in the best interests of "The People" and not in their own best interest. (You know, keeping themselves in power, preventing civil war, ad nauseam.) And what's the best way to make yourself, an authoritarian government, look good?
Manufacture an enemy, fabricate a threat to "The People," and attack the specious threat on behalf of "The People." ("Never mind all that censorship, all that toxic pollution, all those political prisoners, and anyway, look what the US did to all of their minority groups.") Propaganda 101. Read "1984" by George Orwell. It's all there.
2. The Chinese mentality is complex, but lurking deep down below all that manufacturing prowess and trillions of US $ in Chinese banks is a deeply rooted and long-standing feeling of inferiority. China has been invaded and plundered by many foreign entities. From Ghengis Khan to the European "alliance" that crushed the Boxer Rebellion to Imperalist Japan. (Ever wonder why Tsing Tao beer is so good? It's because Germany seized the Tsing Tao area, German colonists settled there, and the Germans know all about beer.)
Despite all that foreign "influence," it took centuries for China to embrace foreign technology (no thanks to Chairman Mao's efforts to hammer China into a nation of peasants.) Forcing foreign corporations to kowtow and "kiss the ring" is a passive-aggressive way to show the world who's boss. Especially foreign corporations who want to use cheap Chinese labor to manufacture products, then sell those products to the few Chinese who can actually afford them. (Of course, "few" means hundreds of millions in China.)
Apple has a different warranty policy in China: doubleplusungood.
Apple fixes their warranty policy in China (and Tim Cook publicly apologizes): plusgood.
So the "rite of passage in China" is to be accused of something silly and superficial (like not replacing covers) and be hounded over the offense bearing no relation on the severity -- and then you apologize, and suddenly gain praise and love?
My only reference for this is watching all the prison movies and how the "fresh meat" deals with it. I hope we get a pack of smokes out of this noble Chinese tradition.
I'm not interested in getting into a ridiculous comparison between the USA VS China. The USA is definitely not perfect, but here's one big difference:
In China, the commies are in charge and you can't get rid of them. You don't have any choice, they're going to be around and in control, no matter what you do.
In the USA, you can at least vote the bastards out of office. To give an example, I don't like Obama or his amateurish policies, but the good news is that the Keynesian is on his last term, and then he'll finally be gone.
In US, if you are a Republican and the Democrats are in charge, I do not think you can vote the bastards out of office. For example, in California the Republican Party is totaled. The CCP is just a political party. Just like in US, there will be plenty of haters. From what I see the comparison between US and China is just a matter of degree.
...Despite all that foreign "influence," it took centuries for China to embrace foreign technology (no thanks to Chairman Mao's efforts to hammer China into a nation of peasants.) Forcing foreign corporations to kowtow and "kiss the ring" is a passive-aggressive way to show the world who's boss. Especially foreign corporations who want to use cheap Chinese labor to manufacture products, then sell those products to the few Chinese who can actually afford them. (Of course, "few" means hundreds of millions in China.)...
Yes, this explanation makes a lot of sense to me.
Apple is wise to just apologize and "kiss the ring" and move on. They've established they are not here to be big shots.
It reminds me of an episode of South Park, where a Japanese anime invasion easily thwarts investigators by mentioning how silly the Japanese are and (I'm trying to put this delicately -- it's "South Park" after all) how much better endowed American men are -- and all is forgiven and forgotten each time a new bit of their secret plot is uncovered.
Seems like the only thing more expensive than ego, is having someone else protect yours.
You keep comparing the current US government to the shortcomings of decades and centuries ago. Yes, they had a couple hundred year head start on China in terms of forming a modern government and clearly the US is not without faults but that doesn't mean the Chinese have to reinvent the wheel. Surely they should have learned from the US mistakes. But the more likely scenario is that they did learn from the mistakes but attributed them to the inherent problems of governing a free people, hence they decided to try a different solution and copied Russia's Communism. Now they are trying to mix in free enterprise which leaves them with no philosophical guidance because of the conflicting interests of the two ideals. I have a feeling this will not turn out well.
I don't think you fully understand American history. The three things I mentioned that happened were a necessity at those times. They happened when the democratic people felt their well beings are threatened. They are not mistakes as you think. So why we think they are not right now? My theory is US economy has grown so much since that the people felt that they can tolerate Indians, Chinese, and blacks differently now. According to US constitution, politics is concerned about the well beings of the citizens. And the single most important well beings of the citizens is jobs. On this basis, since the jobs picture between US and China are drastically different therefore the politics between China and US are drastically different. And this is the reason why China can not copy US politics now. Because it will result in chaos. For example, China needs an authority government to build the rapid rail system quickly. And China needs the rapid rail system to improve its economy.
Don't worry. With the way that things are going, we'll soon be like everybody else, which really sucks.
Naww.... America sucks, like everyone else, but it sucks less. Some countries really suck, like China and France, but they suck for different reasons. North Korea sucks because Kim Jong Un's whole family sucks. South Korea sucks because Samsung sucks. The Islamic world sucks because their brains suck a vacuum.
Akio Toyoda was not summoned to apologize. He was summoned to answer questions. But it is a Japanese custom for business heads to make such public apologies too. So this is what he did in front of the House Committee conducting the investigating the incidents involving Toyota cars. This is also a tradition of Korean businesses. AFAIK, this is NOT a tradition of Chinese businesses. In part, this is because most (all?) Chinese businesses are at least partly state-owned.
It is Chinese business tradition of making public apologies, due to their Confucian culture and beliefs. The Japanese and Korean just copied(again) from the Chinese Confucian culture.
Samsung has an even bigger market share in China, but they are treating the Chinese consumers fair and right. Samsung is way more successful than Apple in China.
It appears as if roughly half the people in this country think that they're in mortal danger from their own government. That's a lot of people sensing a lot of malice and threat. I worry that I don't see it. Sure, I see inefficiency and incompetence, but I've always seen that - regardless of which party's in office. And frankly, I've always welcomed it. I don't like my big bureaucracies to be cold, calculating, profit-making enterprises driven by a steely, clear-headed singular vision. A cursory glance through history would indicate that well-organized governments tend to enjoy well-organized parades, followed by well-organized ethnic cleansing. Which is why I celebrate the magnificent, muddle-headed ineptitude of our democracy. As far as I'm concerned, a little confusion and waste may keep the trains from running on time, but it also keeps people like me from getting a one-way ticket in a cattle car. Are our tax dollars being misspent on poorly run social programs? You bet! Do we get more buck for our bang at the local Post Office, Amtrak station, nuclear submarine or methadone clinic? Of course we do! But keep in mind that bureaucrats who can't find their ass with a flashlight and a hand mirror are not likely to find you either. To paraphrase Bobby McGee: "Freedom's just another word for who the hell's in charge here?!" #396
PS: I think Walmart is having a sale on aluminum foil, but use cash and wear a disguise so they don't know what you're up to¡
Comments
Tim Cook knows that China is Apple's future. Can't crack the nut if you're not even allowed to have the nut.
This apology was just meant to show that Apple is willing to kiss China's ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
AFAIK, this is NOT a tradition of Chinese businesses. In part, this is because most (all?) Chinese businesses are at least partly state-owned.
Well in keeping with Chinese tradition, they did execute two milk company executives for the melamine tainted milk scandal in 2009. Probably not for being responsible for killing hundreds of babies and and causing thousands more to suffer from kidney stones, but because it shamed the Chinese government.
It was later suggested that it was actually the lax inspection and regulation standards of the Chinese government that caused the problem as that just opened the door for the opportunistic ingredient suppliers to tamper with the formula. The milk company was not knowingly providing a tainted product, they just purchased an ingredient with the best protein rating, not knowing that the high protein was actually due to added melamine, a nitrogen fertilizer compound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Well in keeping with Chinese tradition, they did execute two milk company executives for the melamine tainted milk scandal in 2009.
They should start executing people who make those cheap, Chinese Android tablets, which are nothing but junk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
You know what. Even though I criticized Apple yesterday, I agree with you that this is the best move for Apple, from a business perspective, and sometimes you just have to suck it up, even though you know that what you are doing is pathetic when dealing with certain alien cultures and extremely authoritarian regimes.
So while I agree that this is probably the right thing for Apple to do, I still think that China's government is complete crap, bordering on evil, and I don't think that people should refrain from criticizing them.
So when US government forcefully moved an Indian tribe away from North Carolin is not evil? When US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1880s is not crap? When Martin Luther King pleaded for civil rights, what kind of society the blacks were living in? Wasn't US a democratic nation at those times?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan
So when US government forcefully moved an Indian tribe away from North Carolin is not evil? When US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1880s is not crap? When Martin Luther King pleaded for civil rights, what kind of society the blacks were living in? Wasn't US a democratic nation at those times?
I'm not interested in getting into a ridiculous comparison between the USA VS China. The USA is definitely not perfect, but here's one big difference:
In China, the commies are in charge and you can't get rid of them. You don't have any choice, they're going to be around and in control, no matter what you do.
In the USA, you can at least vote the bastards out of office. To give an example, I don't like Obama or his amateurish policies, but the good news is that the Keynesian is on his last term, and then he'll finally be gone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan
So when US government forcefully moved an Indian tribe away from North Carolin is not evil? When US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1880s is not crap? When Martin Luther King pleaded for civil rights, what kind of society the blacks were living in? Wasn't US a democratic nation at those times?
You keep comparing the current US government to the shortcomings of decades and centuries ago. Yes, they had a couple hundred year head start on China in terms of forming a modern government and clearly the US is not without faults but that doesn't mean the Chinese have to reinvent the wheel. Surely they should have learned from the US mistakes. But the more likely scenario is that they did learn from the mistakes but attributed them to the inherent problems of governing a free people, hence they decided to try a different solution and copied Russia's Communism. Now they are trying to mix in free enterprise which leaves them with no philosophical guidance because of the conflicting interests of the two ideals. I have a feeling this will not turn out well.
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
International companies trying to break in to the Chinese market are routinely criticized by state-controlled media, forcing apologies like the one Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook gave this week.
It's because of many things, but here are two of my theories:
1. The Chinese government needs to do everything they can to make it look like they're acting in the best interests of "The People" and not in their own best interest. (You know, keeping themselves in power, preventing civil war, ad nauseam.) And what's the best way to make yourself, an authoritarian government, look good?
Manufacture an enemy, fabricate a threat to "The People," and attack the specious threat on behalf of "The People." ("Never mind all that censorship, all that toxic pollution, all those political prisoners, and anyway, look what the US did to all of their minority groups.") Propaganda 101. Read "1984" by George Orwell. It's all there.
2. The Chinese mentality is complex, but lurking deep down below all that manufacturing prowess and trillions of US $ in Chinese banks is a deeply rooted and long-standing feeling of inferiority. China has been invaded and plundered by many foreign entities. From Ghengis Khan to the European "alliance" that crushed the Boxer Rebellion to Imperalist Japan. (Ever wonder why Tsing Tao beer is so good? It's because Germany seized the Tsing Tao area, German colonists settled there, and the Germans know all about beer.)
Despite all that foreign "influence," it took centuries for China to embrace foreign technology (no thanks to Chairman Mao's efforts to hammer China into a nation of peasants.) Forcing foreign corporations to kowtow and "kiss the ring" is a passive-aggressive way to show the world who's boss. Especially foreign corporations who want to use cheap Chinese labor to manufacture products, then sell those products to the few Chinese who can actually afford them. (Of course, "few" means hundreds of millions in China.)
Apple has a different warranty policy in China: doubleplusungood.
Apple fixes their warranty policy in China (and Tim Cook publicly apologizes): plusgood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Read the Bloomberg article - they give a lot of examples:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-02/apple-s-apology-in-china-a-rite-of-passage-for-foreign-brands.html
Rite of Passage? Sounds more like hazing to me.
My only reference for this is watching all the prison movies and how the "fresh meat" deals with it. I hope we get a pack of smokes out of this noble Chinese tradition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I'm not interested in getting into a ridiculous comparison between the USA VS China. The USA is definitely not perfect, but here's one big difference:
In China, the commies are in charge and you can't get rid of them. You don't have any choice, they're going to be around and in control, no matter what you do.
In the USA, you can at least vote the bastards out of office. To give an example, I don't like Obama or his amateurish policies, but the good news is that the Keynesian is on his last term, and then he'll finally be gone.
In US, if you are a Republican and the Democrats are in charge, I do not think you can vote the bastards out of office. For example, in California the Republican Party is totaled. The CCP is just a political party. Just like in US, there will be plenty of haters. From what I see the comparison between US and China is just a matter of degree.
...Despite all that foreign "influence," it took centuries for China to embrace foreign technology (no thanks to Chairman Mao's efforts to hammer China into a nation of peasants.) Forcing foreign corporations to kowtow and "kiss the ring" is a passive-aggressive way to show the world who's boss. Especially foreign corporations who want to use cheap Chinese labor to manufacture products, then sell those products to the few Chinese who can actually afford them. (Of course, "few" means hundreds of millions in China.)...
Yes, this explanation makes a lot of sense to me.
Apple is wise to just apologize and "kiss the ring" and move on. They've established they are not here to be big shots.
It reminds me of an episode of South Park, where a Japanese anime invasion easily thwarts investigators by mentioning how silly the Japanese are and (I'm trying to put this delicately -- it's "South Park" after all) how much better endowed American men are -- and all is forgiven and forgotten each time a new bit of their secret plot is uncovered.
Seems like the only thing more expensive than ego, is having someone else protect yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
You keep comparing the current US government to the shortcomings of decades and centuries ago. Yes, they had a couple hundred year head start on China in terms of forming a modern government and clearly the US is not without faults but that doesn't mean the Chinese have to reinvent the wheel. Surely they should have learned from the US mistakes. But the more likely scenario is that they did learn from the mistakes but attributed them to the inherent problems of governing a free people, hence they decided to try a different solution and copied Russia's Communism. Now they are trying to mix in free enterprise which leaves them with no philosophical guidance because of the conflicting interests of the two ideals. I have a feeling this will not turn out well.
I don't think you fully understand American history. The three things I mentioned that happened were a necessity at those times. They happened when the democratic people felt their well beings are threatened. They are not mistakes as you think. So why we think they are not right now? My theory is US economy has grown so much since that the people felt that they can tolerate Indians, Chinese, and blacks differently now. According to US constitution, politics is concerned about the well beings of the citizens. And the single most important well beings of the citizens is jobs. On this basis, since the jobs picture between US and China are drastically different therefore the politics between China and US are drastically different. And this is the reason why China can not copy US politics now. Because it will result in chaos. For example, China needs an authority government to build the rapid rail system quickly. And China needs the rapid rail system to improve its economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
Don't worry. With the way that things are going, we'll soon be like everybody else, which really sucks.
Naww.... America sucks, like everyone else, but it sucks less. Some countries really suck, like China and France, but they suck for different reasons. North Korea sucks because Kim Jong Un's whole family sucks. South Korea sucks because Samsung sucks. The Islamic world sucks because their brains suck a vacuum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
Akio Toyoda was not summoned to apologize. He was summoned to answer questions. But it is a Japanese custom for business heads to make such public apologies too. So this is what he did in front of the House Committee conducting the investigating the incidents involving Toyota cars. This is also a tradition of Korean businesses. AFAIK, this is NOT a tradition of Chinese businesses. In part, this is because most (all?) Chinese businesses are at least partly state-owned.
It is Chinese business tradition of making public apologies, due to their Confucian culture and beliefs. The Japanese and Korean just copied(again) from the Chinese Confucian culture.
Samsung has an even bigger market share in China, but they are treating the Chinese consumers fair and right. Samsung is way more successful than Apple in China.
Superb post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan
Toyota chief was summoned to US Congress to apologize. Although Department of Transportation later found no evidence of most of the claims.
Yeup, and yet Toyota still has to pay billions of dollars to settle non sense lawsuits even though there is no evidence of defect!