I've turned down jobs that seemed questionable to me. The fact that someone went to work for AppGratis doesn't change the sort of app it was. An app where people pay for special placement and a push notification was playing with fire. AppGratis thought they had found a backdoor way to push ads to people, but Apple caught on. If Apple allowed it, it would have been a slippery slope. If they wind up loosing their job, hopefully they will learn to be more careful about who they work for.
I installed AppGratis for the promise of good, free apps, but rarely found that it delivered. EVERY App of the Week has been superior to anything I saw offered on AppGratis. Eventually, I just stopped checking (though it is still installed). I wonder how many of those 12 millions still care about the app?
There are several apps that track prices and report to you when an app has become free or discounted and those are still present on the App Store. I find those more useful. When Apple starts cracking down on ALL discovery apps, even ones that do not involve some sort of paid placement or other violations of app guidelines, then I'll be more concerned. So far, that's not what has happened.
The fact that the app was on the app store since 2008 without any objection from Apple and that it was an actual business that invested resources to bring a product to market should differentiate the app from some others. Moreover, it is meaningless what you thought of the app because 20 million people downloaded it, and agreed to allow the app to send them a push notification. If people didn't like the app, they could have deleted it or not agreed to allow push notifications.
More importantly, Apple is sending a bad message to developers because 1) the rules are not always clear, 2) not uniformly enforced, and 3) can be altered randomly after a developer has sunk significant resources into a product.
As a user of Apple's products this really turns me off because I have had Apple remove several apps from the app store that I downloaded and wished to have updates for.
Moreover, its decisions aren't always good. Take for instance, kamasutra apps. Go onto the app store now and you will find tons of them. Mostly garbage apps. Yet, Apple removed iKamasutra, a very well done app, supposedly because some woman complained to Apple that the women in the app have brown hair. This is after the iKamasutra had been available for years and the developer sunk tons of money into supporting the app. Now the app is on Android and not available or being updated on iOS.
Apple is currently being sued for not allowing other entities to sell apps. As an Apple investor I hope the plaintiff losses, but as a user I want to see Apple lose because Apple should be allowed to prevent me from using Apps that 1) I paid for, and 2) want on a device I own.
Apple talks to developers via their store guidelines. Obey or leave. It's fairly simple to get.
You are clearly not a developer because the rules are not always clear, and more importantly Apple often changes them after developers sink resources into an app. Further, Apple's enforcement of its own rules are often times arbitrary.
Apple's moves in cases like this one do not help the platform.
The fact that the app was on the app store since 2008 without any objection from Apple and that it was an actual business that invested resources to bring a product to market should differentiate the app from some others. Moreover, it is meaningless what you thought of the app because 20 million people downloaded it, and agreed to allow the app to send them a push notification. If people didn't like the app, they could have deleted it or not agreed to allow push notifications.
In 2008 it wasn't apparent that AppGratis would become so popular that developers would eventually be able to pay to have their app appear as a top of App Store rankings. It is pretty clear to me that this is completely about Apple protecting the integrity of its app store rankings and cracking down on apps it believes are guilty of manipulating them. Intentionally or otherwise.
If Apple doesn't adapt it's policies and change a stance here and there, the app store will be full of garbage and the iPhone experience will erode for everyone. The issue with AppGratis is that even if you had not even installed the app, you might see an app as a popular, free app due solely to its placement within AppGratis. That's WAY too much power for one app to have and is not something Apple could have predicted. The number of people using the app was ultimately its downfall. The fact that Apple waited so long to pull the app shows they thought long and hard about this and the repercussions.
I'm sure the story is not over. It is possible that Apple could fix manipulation through tweaks to the App Store ranking logic or enhancements to the iPhone API, but neither option will happen overnight.
Quote:
More importantly, Apple is sending a bad message to developers because 1) the rules are not always clear, 2) not uniformly enforced, and 3) can be altered randomly after a developer has sunk significant resources into a product.
"Thems the rules," as they say. No developers like this, but they endure and adapt when necessary. Google has periodically had to remove apps from the Play Store due to complaints of copyright violations and such as well (all the emulators vanished a few years back). What you describe is an issue with any walled garden app stores and is not specific to Apple.
I agree that Apple needs to improve App Discovery. I don't believe apps where developers pay to have their app promoted is the answer. Apple would have to make a way for promoted apps to be excluded from its general rankings.
Why? How is that any different than Electronic Arts advertising an iOS game? The whole notion of the App Store being a "meritocracy" is kind of a farce. Companies that can afford to advertise are going to have better sales than those that can't. Especially companies like EA that can just take on an iOS icon for games that are being released on multiple platforms. No different than Adobe advertising iPad versions of apps, etc.
Why? How is that any different than Electronic Arts advertising an iOS game? The whole notion of the App Store being a "meritocracy" is kind of a farce. Companies that can afford to advertise are going to have better sales than those that can't. Especially companies like EA that can just take on an iOS icon for games that are being released on multiple platforms. No different than Adobe advertising iPad versions of apps, etc.
You cannot see the difference between an ad that entices me to buy a product and an app that just slings a "free" app at me everyday and pushes a notification to go and download it?
One involves a level of choice. Usually the EA app will cost me something so I have to investigate further. If I buy it, I like what I saw.
The free app involves no risk. I just download it and see if I like it. What if I remove it 10 minutes later? Doesn't matter as the download is recorded and the rank has been impacted.
Besides, you may not be able fix every possible form of manipulation, but you certainly fix what you can.
That'd be when you get in contact with Apple and ask for clarification.
HAHA! Wait, you're serious? Haven't you read anything? That's not how the app approval process works. There have been many articles/blogs about this including the one in this very story.
I'm an app developer and have submitted many apps for myself and clients to the app store. You don't get in contact with Apple, you wait, then after weeks or months you either get a rejection with no explanation or a tiny email with the rule they think you broke quoted word-for-word and nothing more. There's no one to call, no one to explain details to you, no one to negotiate with. Just you who spent months working on a project and a client who just spent 10s of thousands of dollars on an app that is going nowhere.
The only time I've seen something happen is for a bigger client that had an Apple rep assigned to them (for other non-app store business). Rep told me to re-submit and magically it was approved right away.
HAHA! Wait, you're serious? Haven't you read anything? That's not how the app approval process works. There have been many articles/blogs about this including the one in this very story.
"Hey, I had a question about [guideline]. Could you clarify?"
And then someone replies to you, because you asked that question in the developer forums. I didn't say anything about submitting apps, much less getting approval for them. This is before you even MAKE the app.
Just you who spent months working on a project and a client who just spent 10s of thousands of dollars on an app that is going nowhere.
And it's somehow Apple's fault that you decided to plan so poorly?
So what you are saying is that you are against in-app purchases because that my friend, is a store within a store.
No, no it's not. It's store access within app, hence the name in-app purchase. It's still all from iTS, but more importantly it's approved by Apple. They have APIs and everything.
Comments
Originally Posted by mscientist
In any meaningful way, absolutely.
Your definition of 'meaningful' would be… what? Because it's not the real definition, is all.
No, but it would sure be great if the two groups bothered to talk to each other.
Apple talks to developers via their store guidelines. Obey or leave. It's fairly simple to get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednival
I've turned down jobs that seemed questionable to me. The fact that someone went to work for AppGratis doesn't change the sort of app it was. An app where people pay for special placement and a push notification was playing with fire. AppGratis thought they had found a backdoor way to push ads to people, but Apple caught on. If Apple allowed it, it would have been a slippery slope. If they wind up loosing their job, hopefully they will learn to be more careful about who they work for.
I installed AppGratis for the promise of good, free apps, but rarely found that it delivered. EVERY App of the Week has been superior to anything I saw offered on AppGratis. Eventually, I just stopped checking (though it is still installed). I wonder how many of those 12 millions still care about the app?
There are several apps that track prices and report to you when an app has become free or discounted and those are still present on the App Store. I find those more useful. When Apple starts cracking down on ALL discovery apps, even ones that do not involve some sort of paid placement or other violations of app guidelines, then I'll be more concerned. So far, that's not what has happened.
The fact that the app was on the app store since 2008 without any objection from Apple and that it was an actual business that invested resources to bring a product to market should differentiate the app from some others. Moreover, it is meaningless what you thought of the app because 20 million people downloaded it, and agreed to allow the app to send them a push notification. If people didn't like the app, they could have deleted it or not agreed to allow push notifications.
More importantly, Apple is sending a bad message to developers because 1) the rules are not always clear, 2) not uniformly enforced, and 3) can be altered randomly after a developer has sunk significant resources into a product.
As a user of Apple's products this really turns me off because I have had Apple remove several apps from the app store that I downloaded and wished to have updates for.
Moreover, its decisions aren't always good. Take for instance, kamasutra apps. Go onto the app store now and you will find tons of them. Mostly garbage apps. Yet, Apple removed iKamasutra, a very well done app, supposedly because some woman complained to Apple that the women in the app have brown hair. This is after the iKamasutra had been available for years and the developer sunk tons of money into supporting the app. Now the app is on Android and not available or being updated on iOS.
Apple is currently being sued for not allowing other entities to sell apps. As an Apple investor I hope the plaintiff losses, but as a user I want to see Apple lose because Apple should be allowed to prevent me from using Apps that 1) I paid for, and 2) want on a device I own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Apple talks to developers via their store guidelines. Obey or leave. It's fairly simple to get.
You are clearly not a developer because the rules are not always clear, and more importantly Apple often changes them after developers sink resources into an app. Further, Apple's enforcement of its own rules are often times arbitrary.
Apple's moves in cases like this one do not help the platform.
Originally Posted by TBell
…the rules are not always clear…
That'd be when you get in contact with Apple and ask for clarification.
…Apple often changes them after developers sink resources into an app.
So adapt or die. I'd ask no more of Apple themselves.
Quote:
The fact that the app was on the app store since 2008 without any objection from Apple and that it was an actual business that invested resources to bring a product to market should differentiate the app from some others. Moreover, it is meaningless what you thought of the app because 20 million people downloaded it, and agreed to allow the app to send them a push notification. If people didn't like the app, they could have deleted it or not agreed to allow push notifications.
In 2008 it wasn't apparent that AppGratis would become so popular that developers would eventually be able to pay to have their app appear as a top of App Store rankings. It is pretty clear to me that this is completely about Apple protecting the integrity of its app store rankings and cracking down on apps it believes are guilty of manipulating them. Intentionally or otherwise.
If Apple doesn't adapt it's policies and change a stance here and there, the app store will be full of garbage and the iPhone experience will erode for everyone. The issue with AppGratis is that even if you had not even installed the app, you might see an app as a popular, free app due solely to its placement within AppGratis. That's WAY too much power for one app to have and is not something Apple could have predicted. The number of people using the app was ultimately its downfall. The fact that Apple waited so long to pull the app shows they thought long and hard about this and the repercussions.
I'm sure the story is not over. It is possible that Apple could fix manipulation through tweaks to the App Store ranking logic or enhancements to the iPhone API, but neither option will happen overnight.
Quote:
More importantly, Apple is sending a bad message to developers because 1) the rules are not always clear, 2) not uniformly enforced, and 3) can be altered randomly after a developer has sunk significant resources into a product.
"Thems the rules," as they say. No developers like this, but they endure and adapt when necessary. Google has periodically had to remove apps from the Play Store due to complaints of copyright violations and such as well (all the emulators vanished a few years back). What you describe is an issue with any walled garden app stores and is not specific to Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednival
I agree that Apple needs to improve App Discovery. I don't believe apps where developers pay to have their app promoted is the answer. Apple would have to make a way for promoted apps to be excluded from its general rankings.
Why? How is that any different than Electronic Arts advertising an iOS game? The whole notion of the App Store being a "meritocracy" is kind of a farce. Companies that can afford to advertise are going to have better sales than those that can't. Especially companies like EA that can just take on an iOS icon for games that are being released on multiple platforms. No different than Adobe advertising iPad versions of apps, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius
Why? How is that any different than Electronic Arts advertising an iOS game? The whole notion of the App Store being a "meritocracy" is kind of a farce. Companies that can afford to advertise are going to have better sales than those that can't. Especially companies like EA that can just take on an iOS icon for games that are being released on multiple platforms. No different than Adobe advertising iPad versions of apps, etc.
You cannot see the difference between an ad that entices me to buy a product and an app that just slings a "free" app at me everyday and pushes a notification to go and download it?
One involves a level of choice. Usually the EA app will cost me something so I have to investigate further. If I buy it, I like what I saw.
The free app involves no risk. I just download it and see if I like it. What if I remove it 10 minutes later? Doesn't matter as the download is recorded and the rank has been impacted.
Besides, you may not be able fix every possible form of manipulation, but you certainly fix what you can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That'd be when you get in contact with Apple and ask for clarification.
HAHA! Wait, you're serious? Haven't you read anything? That's not how the app approval process works. There have been many articles/blogs about this including the one in this very story.
I'm an app developer and have submitted many apps for myself and clients to the app store. You don't get in contact with Apple, you wait, then after weeks or months you either get a rejection with no explanation or a tiny email with the rule they think you broke quoted word-for-word and nothing more. There's no one to call, no one to explain details to you, no one to negotiate with. Just you who spent months working on a project and a client who just spent 10s of thousands of dollars on an app that is going nowhere.
The only time I've seen something happen is for a bigger client that had an Apple rep assigned to them (for other non-app store business). Rep told me to re-submit and magically it was approved right away.
Originally Posted by techguy911
HAHA! Wait, you're serious? Haven't you read anything? That's not how the app approval process works. There have been many articles/blogs about this including the one in this very story.
"Hey, I had a question about [guideline]. Could you clarify?"
And then someone replies to you, because you asked that question in the developer forums. I didn't say anything about submitting apps, much less getting approval for them. This is before you even MAKE the app.
Just you who spent months working on a project and a client who just spent 10s of thousands of dollars on an app that is going nowhere.
And it's somehow Apple's fault that you decided to plan so poorly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selva Raj
No one want store with in store....Good jobs apple
So what you are saying is that you are against in-app purchases because that my friend, is a store within a store.
No, no it's not. It's store access within app, hence the name in-app purchase. It's still all from iTS, but more importantly it's approved by Apple. They have APIs and everything.