Low voltage is not acceptable beyond the 13" MacBook Air. Once you get into the 13" MacBook Pro we need standard processors and hopefully soon we'll have quad cores to use.
You need to remember that technology is changing real fast. Low voltage is the way of the future. You can't be looking to the past as framework for what is suitable in future hardware. If that was rational we would all be running 5VDC processors cooled by massive fans. Operating voltages decrease to allow more performance into a given power profile.
You need to remember that technology is changing real fast. Low voltage is the way of the future. You can't be looking to the past as framework for what is suitable in future hardware. If that was rational we would all be running 5VDC processors cooled by massive fans. Operating voltages decrease to allow more performance into a given power profile.
I missed replying to this so I will say something now. What I meant was any processor ending with a U vs. an M, QM, or XM. I know processors are getting better and will use less power though I wouldn't want say a rMBP using a ULV processor that is designed for a MacBook Air.
I really don't understand your thinking here. This isn't much different than what Marvin indicted with the integrated GPUs. It is the end result that counts and as such a 15" AIR with an ultra low voltage processor is a viable solution for many users. It might be terrible for you or me but that is another discussion.
There is much talk about Intels 22 nm process but people need to realize that the process is actually still evolving with an even great emphasis on low power. So ultimately we could get a nice solution for a 15" AIR at this process node. There is new Intel documentation float around about the new ATOM processor and the new cores used there. A rethinking of what is important has resulted in some features being drop while others have been beefed up. Combined with tuning of the 22 nm technology even more has resulted in a big performance increase while lowering power usage. I could see intel actually tuning the cores of the ULV processors in the same way to optimize performance and power even more.
That of course is speculating about the far future. Near future, with Haswell, I'm certain Apple could produce a suitable AIR in the 15" size that would be snapped up by many current AIR users. Maybe it isn't the machine you or I would buy but it would likely sell as well as current AIR models. Remember Apple isn't about making hardware for you specifically, it is all about hardware that sells in volume.
To be honest I see great things happening to the entire AIR lineup this year. Haswell should be most interesting and they should be able to double or better flash storage. Haswell might solve the terrible processor issue ???????? while more storage would solve the issues I have with space for VMs and development tools. Put out a 15" screen model and Apple has the potential to completely change my mind about AIR.
I missed replying to this so I will say something now. What I meant was any processor ending with a U vs. an M, QM, or XM. I know processors are getting better and will use less power though I wouldn't want say a rMBP using a ULV processor that is designed for a MacBook Air.
I also think a 15-inch MacBook Air is WELL overdue, as an older person who travels a lot I am not interested in a notebook with a small 11 or 13 inch screen and I am sick of MS Windows, so maybe I will buy a the new HP Chromebook 14 next.
The Macbook Air is such an amazing product and its So'oooo lightweight, so come on Apple make a bigger screen version, before you start to lose market share. I understand that in China (the biggest computer market now) if a notebook is not 14 or 15 inch then they are really not interested, same goes for me also :-)
Not all professional work requires high performance. A professional accountant, writer, photographer, lawyer, doctor etc. would value portability over performance.
This is because many define professional as people that do the same work they do. Anybody else is a casual user! ????????
The 15" form factor is the most popular notebook form factor by a long way and Apple's entry point is $1800. A 15" Air would give people a more affordable entry point. They should have a 13" and 15" Air and a 13" and 15" Pro.
I'm not too sure about that, I was under the impression 13" machines have been selling well.
They should have a 15" laptop near $1299 but it could go something like:
13" 128GB Air $999
13" 256GB Air $1199
15" 128GB Air $1299
15" 256GB Air $1499
You need to trim each price above by $100 and double the SSD storage. The AIRs are fine machines except for the issue with the volume of built in storage.
For that 13" MBP I'd like to see them simply upgrade the screen on the Air. The MBP could easily pass as a AIR with retina in that size. Of course a better processor is required along with addressing the storage issue.
For the 15 & 17" models I like what you have but the 17" needs 1GB of SSD sot orange of the fast type seen in the Mac Pro. By the way I would not be surprised at all if Apple delivers that 4K retina Mac Pro in a 17" or larger screen. It would be a nice reintroduction of the "big" machine.
Beyond that shouldn't the GPU vendors be delivering their new architectures this year? Last year was a bump year of existing technology. A 20 nm GPU would be most interesting.
One last thing, in general I'm very displeased with Apple and their milking of flash storage. They need to bump flash storage on all platforms this year. Pricing on this stuff has dropped like a rock over the last couple of years, Apple needs to keep pace or end up looking very memory stingy again. This is why I emphasis the storage issue above, 128 GB SSDs can be had for peanuts these days, well honey covered peanuts.
I'm not too sure about that, I was under the impression 13" machines have been selling well.
In the Mac lineup that's the case but it's because the cheapest 15" is $2k. In the PC world where they can be bought for $500, 15" is the most popular, 14" in China.
I would not be surprised at all if Apple delivers that 4K retina Mac Pro in a 17" or larger screen. It would be a nice reintroduction of the "big" machine.
I just threw that in as an extra. I really doubt it's coming back. The unit shipments are higher now without it so it's clear the number of buyers was under 50k per quarter (1/10th the 15" lineup).
Beyond that shouldn't the GPU vendors be delivering their new architectures this year? Last year was a bump year of existing technology. A 20 nm GPU would be most interesting.
NVidia claims 35% performance boost with the Maxwell ones but they did with the 700M series too and it wasn't anything like that vs the 600 series - some of the 600 series are faster. I expect Haswell refresh in April and 800 series options will be available for dedicated, probably launching around June. Haswell refresh is supposed to be something like 100MHz clock boost, not sure about Iris Pro. NVidia's claim of 2x performance per watt is interesting though. They are referring to the desktop GPUs just now, we'll have to see what the mobile chips are like. They're supposed to be out this month too:
One last thing, in general I'm very displeased with Apple and their milking of flash storage. They need to bump flash storage on all platforms this year. Pricing on this stuff has dropped like a rock over the last couple of years, Apple needs to keep pace or end up looking very memory stingy again. This is why I emphasis the storage issue above, 128 GB SSDs can be had for peanuts these days, well honey covered peanuts.
Maybe it's time they looked into TLC memory. I think they still use MLC, which has a longer life but more expensive. They have tech from Anobit that is supposed to help SSD endurance. If they could make sure TLC would have a low failure rate and have typical write endurance to last heavy users for at least 5 years, that would be enough. I was happy to see them move to 128GB on the entry Air so at least the prices are coming down.
We need portability and a larger screen size. I won't give up the 15" MBP until a 15" air comes along. Older eyes need bigger screens. It sucks - it's a fact of life.
apple needs to pay attention. Geniuses get old too (if they're lucky)
We need portability and a larger screen size. I won't give up the 15" MBP until a 15" air comes along. Older eyes need bigger screens. It sucks - it's a fact of life.
apple needs to pay attention. Geniuses get old too (if they're lucky)
In terms of portability, the 15" isn't that much heavier than what you would have for a 15" air. You would be likely to lose less than a pound. Look at the 13" air and pro for reference. Difference in portability is negligible. One is tapered. The other is fairly thin overall. Where the Air fits will be limited by its thickest portion. What you guys want is a cheaper 15", which is an entirely valid request. The cheapest 15" notebook started at $1800 new for a long time. Going through the refurbished store could bring it down further to within what you would probably pay for a 15" air. Now it's $2000 with integrated graphics, although they may reverse that at some point as ssd prices continue to drop. The chips with iris pro can't be any more expensive than their total previous cost for separate chips.
Keylogger you hit the nail on the head. Apple is still a premium product maker. But they have to get those MBP prices down. They must have really fat margins. I mean they don't even have optical drives or discrete GPUs. Also, with my eyes I can't see the retina difference until I get close. I don't use my laptop from 2" away. So a low-res 15" Air would be great for me. And they're still gimping everything for RAM and storage I see.
?I shall wait, as the wizard has said... I can wait plenty of time for 15" air. One, even two years. I'll be here watching..
But they have to get those MBP prices down. They must have really fat margins. I mean they don't even have optical drives or discrete GPUs.
I want to add a couple things to this. They dropped discrete gpus in the base models, yet went to more expensive cpu packages. I suspect in the long term it will result in a better machine. Regardless of who blames who, we have seen way too many gpu related logic board deaths. There was one in 2008 or 2009. The 2010 350m had an extended repair program. The 2011s have experienced their own problems. It's possible that the rmbp solves part of the problem due to running cooler. I'm not sure how they pulled that off given that many of the components involved in cooling 2012 and seem similar to past generations. Anyway they used to start the 15" models at $1800. If it was working just as well at $2200, they wouldn't have brought the rmbp back to $2000. I don't know whether they'll try to get back to $1800, but 15" form factors tend to be the most popular with every other brand. They should be even more popular with Apple due to the light weight and compact nature of their 15" models, which suggests to me that it's an issue of price. There's also the matter that some people may have initially compromised with a 13" and grown comfortable with that size. I'm not sure I could do that. Below a certain amount of screen real estate, it becomes less useful. At that point I don't know that I would bring it with me most of the time. For Apple it's most likely an issue of balancing their desired margins with whatever increase in sales volume is possible. It's also entirely possible that they want a certain amount of padding between the 13 and 15", and the margin issue is more of an issue on the 13" than the 15". I haven't looked up the cpus and things in enough detail to really guess either way though.
Good point regarding logic board failures. But perhaps that is due to Apple's anorexic laptops since the early 2000s. Thus thermal issues etc. If adding a few mm would get us discrete or lower prices or both...I think it'd be a win for everyone. By that I mean it would probably raise sales, especially if it was related to price. Except Ives would probably not be having it...
I have no idea. They may be the poster child for anorexia nervosa, but that's just a possible cause of increased failure rates. There have been problems with the implementations of discrete graphics in their line over several cycles. I haven't heard much about the 650M machines, but the threads typically start first at apple discussions. If I was on the market for one, I would definitely check there. If integrated only leads to a more reliable machine, I don't really mind it. I do think they're currently too expensive. Eventually the 15" models may make it back to $1800. If that happens you can pick up a refurb in the $1400-1500 range.
Comments
You need to remember that technology is changing real fast. Low voltage is the way of the future. You can't be looking to the past as framework for what is suitable in future hardware. If that was rational we would all be running 5VDC processors cooled by massive fans. Operating voltages decrease to allow more performance into a given power profile.
still most concerned about the cost of the Mac than the others
I missed replying to this so I will say something now. What I meant was any processor ending with a U vs. an M, QM, or XM. I know processors are getting better and will use less power though I wouldn't want say a rMBP using a ULV processor that is designed for a MacBook Air.
There is much talk about Intels 22 nm process but people need to realize that the process is actually still evolving with an even great emphasis on low power. So ultimately we could get a nice solution for a 15" AIR at this process node. There is new Intel documentation float around about the new ATOM processor and the new cores used there. A rethinking of what is important has resulted in some features being drop while others have been beefed up. Combined with tuning of the 22 nm technology even more has resulted in a big performance increase while lowering power usage. I could see intel actually tuning the cores of the ULV processors in the same way to optimize performance and power even more.
That of course is speculating about the far future. Near future, with Haswell, I'm certain Apple could produce a suitable AIR in the 15" size that would be snapped up by many current AIR users. Maybe it isn't the machine you or I would buy but it would likely sell as well as current AIR models. Remember Apple isn't about making hardware for you specifically, it is all about hardware that sells in volume.
To be honest I see great things happening to the entire AIR lineup this year. Haswell should be most interesting and they should be able to double or better flash storage. Haswell might solve the terrible processor issue ???????? while more storage would solve the issues I have with space for VMs and development tools. Put out a 15" screen model and Apple has the potential to completely change my mind about AIR.
I also think a 15-inch MacBook Air is WELL overdue, as an older person who travels a lot I am not interested in a notebook with a small 11 or 13 inch screen and I am sick of MS Windows, so maybe I will buy a the new HP Chromebook 14 next.
The Macbook Air is such an amazing product and its So'oooo lightweight, so come on Apple make a bigger screen version, before you start to lose market share. I understand that in China (the biggest computer market now) if a notebook is not 14 or 15 inch then they are really not interested, same goes for me also :-)
I am ready to buy a 15" Air. I am also ready to wait more. When they release, I'll be there.
This is because many define professional as people that do the same work they do. Anybody else is a casual user! ???????? I'm not too sure about that, I was under the impression 13" machines have been selling well. You need to trim each price above by $100 and double the SSD storage. The AIRs are fine machines except for the issue with the volume of built in storage. For that 13" MBP I'd like to see them simply upgrade the screen on the Air. The MBP could easily pass as a AIR with retina in that size. Of course a better processor is required along with addressing the storage issue.
For the 15 & 17" models I like what you have but the 17" needs 1GB of SSD sot orange of the fast type seen in the Mac Pro. By the way I would not be surprised at all if Apple delivers that 4K retina Mac Pro in a 17" or larger screen. It would be a nice reintroduction of the "big" machine.
Beyond that shouldn't the GPU vendors be delivering their new architectures this year? Last year was a bump year of existing technology. A 20 nm GPU would be most interesting.
One last thing, in general I'm very displeased with Apple and their milking of flash storage. They need to bump flash storage on all platforms this year. Pricing on this stuff has dropped like a rock over the last couple of years, Apple needs to keep pace or end up looking very memory stingy again. This is why I emphasis the storage issue above, 128 GB SSDs can be had for peanuts these days, well honey covered peanuts.
That may be a ways off. Like late fall before Intel has MBP chips ready. Air suitable chips are harder to project but they could come soon.
In the Mac lineup that's the case but it's because the cheapest 15" is $2k. In the PC world where they can be bought for $500, 15" is the most popular, 14" in China.
I could trim the prices but my benevolence would not be supported by Apple's business model.
I just threw that in as an extra. I really doubt it's coming back. The unit shipments are higher now without it so it's clear the number of buyers was under 50k per quarter (1/10th the 15" lineup).
It's still 28nm this year but new architecture:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2097974/nvidia-unveils-maxwell-a-supremely-power-efficient-gpu-architecture.html
http://nvidianews.nvidia.com/Releases/NVIDIA-Leads-Performance-Per-Watt-Revolution-With-Maxwell-Graphics-Architecture-ab5.aspx
Some are apparently Kepler rebrands again:
http://videocardz.com/48633/nvidia-geforce-gtx-880m-rebranded-gtx-780m-8gb-memory
NVidia claims 35% performance boost with the Maxwell ones but they did with the 700M series too and it wasn't anything like that vs the 600 series - some of the 600 series are faster. I expect Haswell refresh in April and 800 series options will be available for dedicated, probably launching around June. Haswell refresh is supposed to be something like 100MHz clock boost, not sure about Iris Pro. NVidia's claim of 2x performance per watt is interesting though. They are referring to the desktop GPUs just now, we'll have to see what the mobile chips are like. They're supposed to be out this month too:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/739970-clevo-notebooks-800m-series-coming-out-february-2014-a.html
If the mobile ones are all Kepler again then I don't expect much improvement.
Maybe it's time they looked into TLC memory. I think they still use MLC, which has a longer life but more expensive. They have tech from Anobit that is supposed to help SSD endurance. If they could make sure TLC would have a low failure rate and have typical write endurance to last heavy users for at least 5 years, that would be enough. I was happy to see them move to 128GB on the entry Air so at least the prices are coming down.
Marvin is absolutely right.
We need portability and a larger screen size. I won't give up the 15" MBP until a 15" air comes along. Older eyes need bigger screens. It sucks - it's a fact of life.
apple needs to pay attention. Geniuses get old too (if they're lucky)
Marvin is absolutely right.
We need portability and a larger screen size. I won't give up the 15" MBP until a 15" air comes along. Older eyes need bigger screens. It sucks - it's a fact of life.
apple needs to pay attention. Geniuses get old too (if they're lucky)
In terms of portability, the 15" isn't that much heavier than what you would have for a 15" air. You would be likely to lose less than a pound. Look at the 13" air and pro for reference. Difference in portability is negligible. One is tapered. The other is fairly thin overall. Where the Air fits will be limited by its thickest portion. What you guys want is a cheaper 15", which is an entirely valid request. The cheapest 15" notebook started at $1800 new for a long time. Going through the refurbished store could bring it down further to within what you would probably pay for a 15" air. Now it's $2000 with integrated graphics, although they may reverse that at some point as ssd prices continue to drop. The chips with iris pro can't be any more expensive than their total previous cost for separate chips.
?I shall wait, as the wizard has said... I can wait plenty of time for 15" air. One, even two years. I'll be here watching..
I want to add a couple things to this. They dropped discrete gpus in the base models, yet went to more expensive cpu packages. I suspect in the long term it will result in a better machine. Regardless of who blames who, we have seen way too many gpu related logic board deaths. There was one in 2008 or 2009. The 2010 350m had an extended repair program. The 2011s have experienced their own problems. It's possible that the rmbp solves part of the problem due to running cooler. I'm not sure how they pulled that off given that many of the components involved in cooling 2012 and seem similar to past generations. Anyway they used to start the 15" models at $1800. If it was working just as well at $2200, they wouldn't have brought the rmbp back to $2000. I don't know whether they'll try to get back to $1800, but 15" form factors tend to be the most popular with every other brand. They should be even more popular with Apple due to the light weight and compact nature of their 15" models, which suggests to me that it's an issue of price. There's also the matter that some people may have initially compromised with a 13" and grown comfortable with that size. I'm not sure I could do that. Below a certain amount of screen real estate, it becomes less useful. At that point I don't know that I would bring it with me most of the time. For Apple it's most likely an issue of balancing their desired margins with whatever increase in sales volume is possible. It's also entirely possible that they want a certain amount of padding between the 13 and 15", and the margin issue is more of an issue on the 13" than the 15". I haven't looked up the cpus and things in enough detail to really guess either way though.
I have no idea. They may be the poster child for anorexia nervosa, but that's just a possible cause of increased failure rates. There have been problems with the implementations of discrete graphics in their line over several cycles. I haven't heard much about the 650M machines, but the threads typically start first at apple discussions. If I was on the market for one, I would definitely check there. If integrated only leads to a more reliable machine, I don't really mind it. I do think they're currently too expensive. Eventually the 15" models may make it back to $1800. If that happens you can pick up a refurb in the $1400-1500 range.