Apparently you have new information; perhaps you could add links such that others can discern what you think you see.
It's not new information. What Samab said is well known to people who keep up with Apple and their financial reports.
When Apple quotes sales numbers, they're including both end user sales through its own stores, and units sold to other retailers, including carriers. (That's why we always hear reports of huge numbers "sold" during the first week of a new model... many of those are devices in transit to retailers.)
"So why is it okay that companies report units shipped as units sold? It all comes down to accounting.
"Companies need to determine inventory and cost of good sold figures in order to calculate earnings. Sounds simple enough. Diving deeper into purchasing contracts would show the more intricate interactions between a buyer and seller. Without jumping into the accounting bunny hole, let’s look at Apple’s most recent 10-K:
“(Apple) recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, (Apple) defers revenue until the customer receives the product because (Apple) legally retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit.”
"An iPad on a freight plane headed to a Walmart warehouse is no longer counted as an iPad in Apple’s inventory, instead it is counted as an iPad in Walmart’s inventory. Apple is able to recognize that iPad as sold and recognize the accompanying revenue (and profit). "
- Business Insider
Other companies do very similar accounting. Blackberry does the same as Apple, counting it as a sale the moment it ships. Samsung waits longer; they don't count it as a sale until the unit actually arrives at a retailer.
All of them account for returns separately from sales.
Good luck to them, I guess. There will always be those that cling to older things because it suits them, but it looks like an anachronism. I wonder the market is enough for a company to survive on.
A hardware keyboard is not an anachronism ... yet. The fact is that few can type as fast or as accurately using a virtual keyboard. As Steve Jobs told someone who made the same argument before the iPhone was officially launched, "They'll get used to it." As usual, he was right. Most of us have been and continue to be willing to give up a real keyboard in return for a larger screen. The compromise has, for me, led to a reduction in using my phones for long text input, which I used to do on the BB.
Now, imagine a 3.5" screen with a keyboard. The whole thing might not turn out to be larger than some of the phablets out there. To me, that might be a bigger difference maker than a monster screen.
Reviews mean diddily. Let's see how it SELLS and by sells I mean sold to CUSTOMERS, not SHIPPED to stores and claiming "numbers sold".
If you were to ever read Apple's investor relations pages, you'd see they also consider a 'sale' to be when the product is shipped...
"Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of the Company’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped."
For the benefit of everyone else, let's review what Apple counts in their quarterly reports:
Apple DOES count end user sales from their physical stores.
Apple DOES count online sales after they arrive to the customer.
Apple DOES count shipments to retailers and carriers as sales.
And what is not included:
Apple does NOT report shipments to their own stores as sales.
Apple does NOT include sales to online customers until they arrive. (Which is why presale numbers can be larger than reported sales for a little while if shipments are behind.)
As an aside, one interesting piece of info that Apple does not provide, is how many of the sales are refurbs. They probably sell millions each year. When analysts are comparing which device price ranges are selling, I think refurbs should be factored in. I know that I've bought quite a few myself, from desktops to laptops to iPods to iPads, and the lower price made them more attractive as gifts.
Funny how the discussion began with Wall Street analysts saying that QNX needs a car battery and ended up the talks with some of the Q10 reviews saying that it can be a weekend phone that will last a couple of days in battery life.
Comments
BB has no control over that. They did their part and made a solid device. There are at least still many companies that will buy them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran
Reviews mean diddily. Let's see how it SELLS and by sells I mean sold to CUSTOMERS, not SHIPPED to stores and claiming "numbers sold".
Hidden deep inside Apple's SEC footnotes, Apple's sales numbers are defined as shipment numbers also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
Hidden deep inside Apple's SEC footnotes, Apple's sales numbers are defined as shipment numbers also.
Apparently you have new information; perhaps you could add links such that others can discern what you think you see.
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by minicapt
Apparently you have new information; perhaps you could add links such that others can discern what you think you see.
Cheers
I said it 5 years ago (even gave precise footnote link) and it remains true today.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/92434/half-of-apples-iphone-3gs-sold-internationally
I also said it 4 years ago that Andy Zaky didn't know what he was talking about.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/101831/iphone-sales-predicted-to-top-80-million-by-2012#post_1468287
I read the actual SEC filings, not reading blog entries of people interpreting what he thought was said on cnbc talking heads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
I like the iPhone's QWERTY keyboard better.
THANK you! QWERTY is a layout, it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the keyboard is switches or a touchscreen.
Perhaps what they mean is "mechanical" keyboard?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minicapt
Apparently you have new information; perhaps you could add links such that others can discern what you think you see.
It's not new information. What Samab said is well known to people who keep up with Apple and their financial reports.
When Apple quotes sales numbers, they're including both end user sales through its own stores, and units sold to other retailers, including carriers. (That's why we always hear reports of huge numbers "sold" during the first week of a new model... many of those are devices in transit to retailers.)
As BusinessInsider put it:
Quote:
"So why is it okay that companies report units shipped as units sold? It all comes down to accounting.
"Companies need to determine inventory and cost of good sold figures in order to calculate earnings. Sounds simple enough. Diving deeper into purchasing contracts would show the more intricate interactions between a buyer and seller. Without jumping into the accounting bunny hole, let’s look at Apple’s most recent 10-K:
“(Apple) recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, (Apple) defers revenue until the customer receives the product because (Apple) legally retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit.”
"An iPad on a freight plane headed to a Walmart warehouse is no longer counted as an iPad in Apple’s inventory, instead it is counted as an iPad in Walmart’s inventory. Apple is able to recognize that iPad as sold and recognize the accompanying revenue (and profit). "
- Business Insider
Other companies do very similar accounting. Blackberry does the same as Apple, counting it as a sale the moment it ships. Samsung waits longer; they don't count it as a sale until the unit actually arrives at a retailer.
All of them account for returns separately from sales.
Of course, I was the original person to post that paragraph in 2008.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/83675/piper-over-half-million-missing-iphones-likely-in-channel#post_1206352
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Good luck to them, I guess. There will always be those that cling to older things because it suits them, but it looks like an anachronism. I wonder the market is enough for a company to survive on.
A hardware keyboard is not an anachronism ... yet. The fact is that few can type as fast or as accurately using a virtual keyboard. As Steve Jobs told someone who made the same argument before the iPhone was officially launched, "They'll get used to it." As usual, he was right. Most of us have been and continue to be willing to give up a real keyboard in return for a larger screen. The compromise has, for me, led to a reduction in using my phones for long text input, which I used to do on the BB.
Now, imagine a 3.5" screen with a keyboard. The whole thing might not turn out to be larger than some of the phablets out there. To me, that might be a bigger difference maker than a monster screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran
Reviews mean diddily. Let's see how it SELLS and by sells I mean sold to CUSTOMERS, not SHIPPED to stores and claiming "numbers sold".
If you were to ever read Apple's investor relations pages, you'd see they also consider a 'sale' to be when the product is shipped...
"Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of the Company’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped."
http://investor.apple.com/
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/AAPL/2442776995x0x656152/cd6a3789-1507-4496-9361-be5b7c26f221/Q2_2013_Form_10-Q_AS-FILED.pdf
It's on page 23, under 'Revenue Recognition'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
Of course, I was the original person to post [the SEC filing] paragraph in 2008.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/83675/piper-over-half-million-missing-iphones-likely-in-channel#post_1206352
Excellent! Your posts are always informative.
For the benefit of everyone else, let's review what Apple counts in their quarterly reports:
Apple DOES count end user sales from their physical stores.
Apple DOES count online sales after they arrive to the customer.
Apple DOES count shipments to retailers and carriers as sales.
And what is not included:
Apple does NOT report shipments to their own stores as sales.
Apple does NOT include sales to online customers until they arrive. (Which is why presale numbers can be larger than reported sales for a little while if shipments are behind.)
As an aside, one interesting piece of info that Apple does not provide, is how many of the sales are refurbs. They probably sell millions each year. When analysts are comparing which device price ranges are selling, I think refurbs should be factored in. I know that I've bought quite a few myself, from desktops to laptops to iPods to iPads, and the lower price made them more attractive as gifts.
Funny how the discussion began with Wall Street analysts saying that QNX needs a car battery and ended up the talks with some of the Q10 reviews saying that it can be a weekend phone that will last a couple of days in battery life.