Well I put the "bad" DIMM in by itself, but I haven't had any problems so far. I even lauched as many applications as I could and opened up plenty of Finder windows, so that top in the terminal was reporting 6 MB of free PhysRAW being free. I couldn't seem to get it to zero, it was probably using VM.
I'm going to put the Apple 256 MB DIMM back in and see if I can get this thing to crash. I was really hoping I would just put the bad DIMM in and it would KP like crazy and then I'd be done. I'll let you know what happens.
I also have noticed that the only times I have KPs are when the 3rd from the CPU RAM slot is filled so I have placed the Apple RAM in that slot by itself.
I am getting a nagging feeling that I am not giving the KP enough time to appear. Should I be having testing periods of a couple days instead of a couple of hours?
If this doesn't create a KP I think I'll but all the RAM back in, but not in the 3rd slot. I am really lost, this is not following the clear cut pattern that I was hoping for.
Is there any way to force your machine to use all the RAM in your computer, besides opening up lots of Finder windows and apps? That way I could at least I could test individual DIMMs. I hope this isn't a logic board, or RAM combination problem.
When we first got our PowerMac 867 it used to freeze after going into sleep mode. I couldn't find a solution that worked so I said, what the heck, and changed the RAM cards around into different sockets. It never did it again. So where you put the ram can make a difference.
Yeah I think you might be right. I have the second HD back in, with the second monitor hooked up. I am pretty confident that these two devices where not the cause of the KPs, but I zeroed the second hard disk just to make sure. I also have put all the RAM back into the machine, but I am not using the 3rd slot, and I haven't had a crash in what is almost a days use.
The KPs have gone away for periods of time before, so I'm not sure if I have actually fixed the problem. If it does start KPing again, I'll pull the suspected bad DIMM out and see if they go away. But for now, it seems everything is working fine, which is kindof frustarateing, because it's an unsolved problem, that could return.
After I pulled the HD tho KPs went away, so I plugged the HD back in and it has been fine since. On the advice of a friend I have taken the Apple RAM out, just to make sure that RAM is not causing the problem, since I have not gotten a KP without the Apple RAM installed.
Sorry to hear that you are still having problems with such a nice machine. Just to fill in just in case someone else has this problem I am going to share a story with you about the new DMD G4.
A friend got a new Dual 1, more RAM, and a 80GB HD. Everything ran fine for the first little while. Then the machine had KP after KP. Also very slow, opening a word
We ripped out hair out kinda like you are doing now checking RAM, OS, Install Media, and Logs. After almost 2 months we pulled the HD and the problems went away. Apple had us replace the Logic Board, CPU, all that was wrong was a HD.
The new DMD will not take a standard Master/Slave combo, and live up to the speed promises they make. We found that placing both drives on Cable Select helped a-lot.
Furthermore, this is the first Apple Product that I can remember to do this.
Are you still haveing problems with this machine? (if so might be worth a call to Apple Customer Relations)
Other then a Stock machine what else is in/ connected to it? (I got the iPod/1250 Post)
Are you making faces at it or using a PC in sight of the G4? (jk)
Sorry to hear that you are still having problems with such a nice machine. Just to fill in just in case someone else has this problem I am going to share a story with you about the new DMD G4.
A friend got a new Dual 1, more RAM, and a 80GB HD. Everything ran fine for the first little while. Then the machine had KP after KP. Also very slow, opening a word
We ripped out hair out kinda like you are doing now checking RAM, OS, Install Media, and Logs. After almost 2 months we pulled the HD and the problems went away. Apple had us replace the Logic Board, CPU, all that was wrong was a HD.
The new DMD will not take a standard Master/Slave combo, and live up to the speed promises they make. We found that placing both drives on Cable Select helped a-lot.
Furthermore, this is the first Apple Product that I can remember to do this.
Are you still haveing problems with this machine? (if so might be worth a call to Apple Customer Relations)
Other then a Stock machine what else is in/ connected to it? (I got the iPod/1250 Post)
Are you making faces at it or using a PC in sight of the G4? (jk)
-n</strong><hr></blockquote>
You might remember that I had KPs like crazy when I first got the machine, but they went away and returned about every month of two, so I really didn't do much about it.
Both my HDs are set to cable select, and when I first got the machine, I had taken out the 2nd (non-Apple) HD but still got a lot of KPs. The only common denominator in this whole thing, is something that Apple has put into my machine. Maybe it is the HD, or the RAM, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is the logic board.
My KPs aren't consistent, look at the log, IOAudioKit stuff was crashing it. I would assume that if it was the HD that all the KP would have a similarity, some IO failure during the read or write process. Or can bad HDs cause all sorts of varying reasons for a KP like RAM and the MB can?
I don't know. It would be great to have a stable machine, all my other X machines run for months without any problems.
I don't have anything else hooked up to the machine that I didn't already list, and I have plugged the scanner back in because I have done about 3 reinstalls during this last month. I get KPs when I am booted from the install CD as well if my machine is in a bad mood, why oh why. I guess if you have enough one of your Apples will be bad.
Yes, even when booted from the CD if the bad HD has issues in the directory that get scanned at some point or another. A corrupted pointer someplace in there will direct the OS to all kinds of bad places, which is basically the problem I had, multiple bad sectors in the partition directory.
The whole directory isn't scanned all the time so it can end up semi-random like you see. One possible semi-painful way to check the directory is manually traverse the entire directory structure *including all the OS hidden subdirectories* and if you get a repeatable KP as the OS tries to load and cache the next levels down you can be fairly certian it is the HD.
in the terminal and that seems to have gone through my entrie file structure, but not the Apple Partition Map. I can see the Apple Partition Map in diskutil from the terminal, using
diskutil list
how do I get the computer to scan load that stuff and play around with it? Can I use disktool, or another CL binary?
Also do you think the find / was sufficient? I redirected the SO to a text file that is ~30 MB, I took a look at it and it appears to have scanned everything.
I used Diskcopy to create a new image from Device, that being my hard disk, I'm not sure if this read the partition map, but it must have read all the data on my disk. So is it safe to assume that my hard disk is OK?
It has been a while since I posted any new information on my problem, the reason is that it has been a while since I had anything to post. But a lot of things have happened in the last couple of days.
For the last 2-3 weeks I have been running the machine without the Apple RAM. I was told to this to make sure that the problem didn't occur because of a RAM issue. The machine ran fine for the first little while and I was beginning to think that perhaps the problem was with the RAM, but my machine has since gone back to having KP in runs of 6-10 on about a 15 minute basis. So we now know that the KPs are not caused by any one DIMM since the KPs occur when any one DIMM is absent. Because of this I am getting a new mobo, under warranty and it should be in my machine within the next week or so. Hopefully the KPs will stop after that.
During my latest plague of KPs I disconnected my second (non-Apple) HD again and the KPs kept coming. Previously this had stopped the KPs, but this new evidence shows that the KPs or not caused by the second HD, further confirming that it is the mobo's fault.
I have yet to confirm, in this manner, that the Apple HD is not at fault, but I think it is a safe bet considering the random nature of the KPs and that I was not able to cause a KP by scanning my HD with 'find' of by creating a disk image of the entire drive.
Also a new form of KP has emerged in this last plague. Get this, the KP screen begins to fall down as normal, but before it can hit the bottom the machine just powers down. I have only experienced this once of twice, I wonder if it is an indication of extra hardware problems, or if this is a feature of 10.2.4. Thank goodness I have journalling on, or the frequency with which I must force power down my machine would have caused data loss for sure.
I haven't gotten any new parts for the Powermac yet, but I can almost guarantee that the hard drive is not to blame. I can use the Apple hard disk as a boot drive on any other machine (another Powermac, iBook, Powerbook) through Firewire Target Disk Mode without problems. I have been using that setup for the last week without any KPs on the host machines that are using the FTDM startup disk, but as soon as I boot the Powermac up an its own I get a KP within an hour of use.
So after over a month of investigation, and 100s of restarts, and 3 system reinstalls, I have found out that the KPs are not caused by faulty RAM, or a faulty hard disk.
Tomorrow, if all goes according to plan, I will got a new CPU module. Apparently it is more likely that the CPU module is at fault than the mobo. Hopefully this will fix my problem.
Oh yeah, I also tried a PMU Reset on the mobo, and that didn't fix the problem either. I am still posting this information, mostly as an online reference and log to what I have done, but I hope that it can serve as a layout for how to trouble shoot a bad machine.
Comments
I'm going to put the Apple 256 MB DIMM back in and see if I can get this thing to crash. I was really hoping I would just put the bad DIMM in and it would KP like crazy and then I'd be done. I'll let you know what happens.
I also have noticed that the only times I have KPs are when the 3rd from the CPU RAM slot is filled so I have placed the Apple RAM in that slot by itself.
I am getting a nagging feeling that I am not giving the KP enough time to appear. Should I be having testing periods of a couple days instead of a couple of hours?
If this doesn't create a KP I think I'll but all the RAM back in, but not in the 3rd slot. I am really lost, this is not following the clear cut pattern that I was hoping for.
Is there any way to force your machine to use all the RAM in your computer, besides opening up lots of Finder windows and apps? That way I could at least I could test individual DIMMs. I hope this isn't a logic board, or RAM combination problem.
[ 02-03-2003: Message edited by: Quarem ]</p>
The KPs have gone away for periods of time before, so I'm not sure if I have actually fixed the problem. If it does start KPing again, I'll pull the suspected bad DIMM out and see if they go away. But for now, it seems everything is working fine, which is kindof frustarateing, because it's an unsolved problem, that could return.
Of interest, I can hear a radio station through my headphones for about 15 sec after I power the machine down. Weird.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: Quarem ]</p>
Sorry to hear that you are still having problems with such a nice machine. Just to fill in just in case someone else has this problem I am going to share a story with you about the new DMD G4.
A friend got a new Dual 1, more RAM, and a 80GB HD. Everything ran fine for the first little while. Then the machine had KP after KP. Also very slow, opening a word
We ripped out hair out kinda like you are doing now checking RAM, OS, Install Media, and Logs. After almost 2 months we pulled the HD and the problems went away. Apple had us replace the Logic Board, CPU, all that was wrong was a HD.
The new DMD will not take a standard Master/Slave combo, and live up to the speed promises they make. We found that placing both drives on Cable Select helped a-lot.
Furthermore, this is the first Apple Product that I can remember to do this.
Are you still haveing problems with this machine? (if so might be worth a call to Apple Customer Relations)
Other then a Stock machine what else is in/ connected to it? (I got the iPod/1250 Post)
Are you making faces at it or using a PC in sight of the G4? (jk)
-n
<strong>Hey Quarem,
Sorry to hear that you are still having problems with such a nice machine. Just to fill in just in case someone else has this problem I am going to share a story with you about the new DMD G4.
A friend got a new Dual 1, more RAM, and a 80GB HD. Everything ran fine for the first little while. Then the machine had KP after KP. Also very slow, opening a word
We ripped out hair out kinda like you are doing now checking RAM, OS, Install Media, and Logs. After almost 2 months we pulled the HD and the problems went away. Apple had us replace the Logic Board, CPU, all that was wrong was a HD.
The new DMD will not take a standard Master/Slave combo, and live up to the speed promises they make. We found that placing both drives on Cable Select helped a-lot.
Furthermore, this is the first Apple Product that I can remember to do this.
Are you still haveing problems with this machine? (if so might be worth a call to Apple Customer Relations)
Other then a Stock machine what else is in/ connected to it? (I got the iPod/1250 Post)
Are you making faces at it or using a PC in sight of the G4? (jk)
-n</strong><hr></blockquote>
You might remember that I had KPs like crazy when I first got the machine, but they went away and returned about every month of two, so I really didn't do much about it.
Both my HDs are set to cable select, and when I first got the machine, I had taken out the 2nd (non-Apple) HD but still got a lot of KPs. The only common denominator in this whole thing, is something that Apple has put into my machine. Maybe it is the HD, or the RAM, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is the logic board.
My KPs aren't consistent, look at the log, IOAudioKit stuff was crashing it. I would assume that if it was the HD that all the KP would have a similarity, some IO failure during the read or write process. Or can bad HDs cause all sorts of varying reasons for a KP like RAM and the MB can?
I don't know. It would be great to have a stable machine, all my other X machines run for months without any problems.
I don't have anything else hooked up to the machine that I didn't already list, and I have plugged the scanner back in because I have done about 3 reinstalls during this last month. I get KPs when I am booted from the install CD as well if my machine is in a bad mood, why oh why. I guess if you have enough one of your Apples will be bad.
<strong>
Yes, even when booted from the CD if the bad HD has issues in the directory that get scanned at some point or another. A corrupted pointer someplace in there will direct the OS to all kinds of bad places, which is basically the problem I had, multiple bad sectors in the partition directory.
The whole directory isn't scanned all the time so it can end up semi-random like you see. One possible semi-painful way to check the directory is manually traverse the entire directory structure *including all the OS hidden subdirectories* and if you get a repeatable KP as the OS tries to load and cache the next levels down you can be fairly certian it is the HD.
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: AirSluf ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
This sounds interesting, but how would I go about doing this? I can use the Terminal, just give me some pointers. Thanks.
find /
in the terminal and that seems to have gone through my entrie file structure, but not the Apple Partition Map. I can see the Apple Partition Map in diskutil from the terminal, using
diskutil list
how do I get the computer to scan load that stuff and play around with it? Can I use disktool, or another CL binary?
Also do you think the find / was sufficient? I redirected the SO to a text file that is ~30 MB, I took a look at it and it appears to have scanned everything.
For the last 2-3 weeks I have been running the machine without the Apple RAM. I was told to this to make sure that the problem didn't occur because of a RAM issue. The machine ran fine for the first little while and I was beginning to think that perhaps the problem was with the RAM, but my machine has since gone back to having KP in runs of 6-10 on about a 15 minute basis. So we now know that the KPs are not caused by any one DIMM since the KPs occur when any one DIMM is absent. Because of this I am getting a new mobo, under warranty and it should be in my machine within the next week or so. Hopefully the KPs will stop after that.
During my latest plague of KPs I disconnected my second (non-Apple) HD again and the KPs kept coming. Previously this had stopped the KPs, but this new evidence shows that the KPs or not caused by the second HD, further confirming that it is the mobo's fault.
I have yet to confirm, in this manner, that the Apple HD is not at fault, but I think it is a safe bet considering the random nature of the KPs and that I was not able to cause a KP by scanning my HD with 'find' of by creating a disk image of the entire drive.
Also a new form of KP has emerged in this last plague. Get this, the KP screen begins to fall down as normal, but before it can hit the bottom the machine just powers down. I have only experienced this once of twice, I wonder if it is an indication of extra hardware problems, or if this is a feature of 10.2.4. Thank goodness I have journalling on, or the frequency with which I must force power down my machine would have caused data loss for sure.
Thanks for all of your help and suggestions.
So after over a month of investigation, and 100s of restarts, and 3 system reinstalls, I have found out that the KPs are not caused by faulty RAM, or a faulty hard disk.
Tomorrow, if all goes according to plan, I will got a new CPU module. Apparently it is more likely that the CPU module is at fault than the mobo. Hopefully this will fix my problem.
Oh yeah, I also tried a PMU Reset on the mobo, and that didn't fix the problem either. I am still posting this information, mostly as an online reference and log to what I have done, but I hope that it can serve as a layout for how to trouble shoot a bad machine.