Despite Apple's internal delays, iOS 7 'will ship on time' - report

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  • Reply 21 of 55
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    clemynx wrote: »
    "Skeumorphism refers to design elements that are made to resemble real-life objects"
    that's just half of the definition

    the other important half is

    "without actually carrying any function"

    Not true. Good skeuomorphs have a function. The function of making the UI more intuitive. They can include a lot of things including using a plus sign for creating a new entry, or a notepad and pen like icon.

    Bad skeuomorphs have zero function. Like Forstall's shifting shadows on the knobs. It was done merely to look nifty
  • Reply 22 of 55
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member

    -deleted-

  • Reply 23 of 55
    bdkennedy1bdkennedy1 Posts: 1,459member


    When I used to work at a few software companies, we had the "final stretch". Everyone one of those developers and testers are working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day to get this out on time and they will be generously rewarded for it.

  • Reply 24 of 55
    pokepoke Posts: 506member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post





    Not true. Good skeuomorphs have a function. The function of making the UI more intuitive. They can include a lot of things including using a plus sign for creating a new entry, or a notepad and pen like icon.



    Bad skeuomorphs have zero function. Like Forstall's shifting shadows on the knobs. It was done merely to look nifty


     


    A skeuomorph is a kind of ornamentation, so the correct use of the term is for things that have no functional role. An icon is never a skeuomorph and neither is a symbol. Shading and shadows are not skeuomorphic either. Stuff like leather stitching, torn bits of paper, and textures like faux wood effects are usually what people are referring to as skeuomorphism. But, to be honest, the application of the term to digital media is problematic, since digital displays are generally always depicting something. So it's kind of like saying drawings or paintings are skeuomorphic, which is absurd.

  • Reply 25 of 55
    haggarhaggar Posts: 1,568member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by emig647 View Post


    Since I'm not a member of the "other site", I want to rant here. 


     


    There are a ton of comments suggesting Apple should hire more engineers. These guys don't understand that throwing more engineers at a problem usually makes the problem worse. Ramp up time, unfamiliar with history, dividing tasks, etc. 


     


    Keep in mind, the new campus is being built to add more engineers. They are somewhat limited in space at the current campus.


     


    Bah



     


    How is pulling in members from other groups with little or no experience in iOS any better in regards to training, familiarity and those other things you mention?  If Apple had hired more iOS engineers a few years ago when they started having these staffing issues and started training them at that time, then staffing may not be such a problem today.  If Apple had done that, we would probably see an article from DED like "Apple wisely expands iOS team as part of long term strategy while Windows Phone struggles for relevance".  But instead, the headline today is "Apple cannibalizing Mac OS team to ship iOS".  The commenters on the other side seem more interested in promoting this image of a small mom and pop shop above all else, even at the expense of getting actual work done.  Anybody who has ever worked in an overworked, understaffed department should understand.

  • Reply 26 of 55
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,409moderator
    poke wrote: »
    So it's kind of like saying drawings or paintings are skeuomorphic, which is absurd.

    Drawings and paintings aren't representations to aid recognition of functionality, they are just representations in their own right and not supplemental. Skeuomorphism is things like when you open the compass app and it looks like a compass, the iPhoto app with shelves and albums, the Garageband app with drums and pianos, the camera app with the shutter animation and shutter sound etc. Just because a few people want to limit the meaning of the word to tasteless decoration doesn't redefine the actual word.

    The bad skeuomorphism is where the recognition is either unnecessary or limiting. The Game Center UI doesn't really give the right impression of what it is. It's really just a score sheet so it would be better having an abstract representation. The leather in the calendar represents a particular style of calendar, which is limiting and again it can be more abstract.

    If Jony Ive takes away my drum kit, he'll have some explainin' to do.
  • Reply 27 of 55
    haggar wrote: »
    How is pulling in members from other groups with little or no experience in iOS any better in regards to training, familiarity and those other things you mention?

    Well, you see here's the thing. 90% of what is in iOS is also the same exact code as it is in OS X. After all, iOS was built from the ground up from OS X. That is why in this case it doesn't matter that they were on the OS X, they are already "there" as far as iOS is concerned.

    Also, more than likely, these are the same people that have been used before during these iOS pushes. That last part is a guess, but if I were Ive, that is exactly what I would do.
  • Reply 28 of 55
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Marvin wrote: »
    Drawings and paintings aren't representations to aid recognition of functionality, they are just representations in their own right and not supplemental. Skeuomorphism is things like when you open the compass app and it looks like a compass, the iPhoto app with shelves and albums, the Garageband app with drums and pianos, the camera app with the shutter animation and shutter sound etc. Just because a few people want to limit the meaning of the word to tasteless decoration doesn't redefine the actual word.

    The bad skeuomorphism is where the recognition is either unnecessary or limiting. The Game Center UI doesn't really give the right impression of what it is. It's really just a score sheet so it would be better having an abstract representation. The leather in the calendar represents a particular style of calendar, which is limiting and again it can be more abstract.

    If Jony Ive takes away my drum kit, he'll have some explainin' to do.

    The example I like to use when people are adamantly against any skeumorphs is the page turning effect in iBooks. They could have just used the left and right side taps to move the page, but even that is a lesser form of skeumophism as there are no "pages" on a digital device. They could just make it one giant scroll (which is an option for at least one eBook reader).
  • Reply 29 of 55
    pokepoke Posts: 506member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    Drawings and paintings aren't representations to aid recognition of functionality, they are just representations in their own right and not supplemental. Skeuomorphism is things like when you open the compass app and it looks like a compass, the iPhoto app with shelves and albums, the Garageband app with drums and pianos, the camera app with the shutter animation and shutter sound etc. Just because a few people want to limit the meaning of the word to tasteless decoration doesn't redefine the actual word.



    The bad skeuomorphism is where the recognition is either unnecessary or limiting. The Game Center UI doesn't really give the right impression of what it is. It's really just a score sheet so it would be better having an abstract representation. The leather in the calendar represents a particular style of calendar, which is limiting and again it can be more abstract.



    If Jony Ive takes away my drum kit, he'll have some explainin' to do.


     


    Here's a dictionary definition for "skeuomorphic": "an ornament or design on an object copied from a form of the object when made from another material or by other techniques, as an imitation metal rivet mark found on handles of prehistoric pottery." More generally it's taken to mean any element that copies familiar elements of some other material, like faux wood panelling. Like I said, it doesn't really apply to digital media at all, because all digital media is representation, like a drawing or a painting, and so there isn't a clear way to delineate skeuomorphic elements from non-skeuomorphic elements. You can't have anything on screen except for patches of colour and symbols, without imitating another medium to some degree. That's the nature of depiction. But it's part of the original definition of skeuomorphic that it is ornamentation and it entered into the iOS debate as a term to describe certain ornamental aspects of iOS.

  • Reply 30 of 55
    dilliodillio Posts: 106member
    I definitely support the idea of multiple versions of the GUI: one for older people, one for tech savvy, one for regular people, one for kids...
  • Reply 31 of 55
    irelandireland Posts: 17,799member
    dillio wrote: »
    I definitely support the idea of multiple versions of the GUI: one for older people, one for tech savvy, one for regular people, one for kids...

    Android Central forum would better suit you, me thinks.
  • Reply 32 of 55
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member
    slurpy wrote: »
    Also, I sense we're starting the vicious circle of "OMG iOS7 is going to be so amazing, such a massive change that they're delaying it.." etc, etc- just so that everyone can start shrieking and whining ab out how "underwhelming", "overhyped", etc it is when it is finally unveiled.

    I don't think we have to worry too much.

    That unified Address/Search bar in Safari is going to blow people's minds!

    ;)
  • Reply 33 of 55
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,385member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dillio View Post



    I definitely support the idea of multiple versions of the GUI: one for older people, one for tech savvy, one for regular people, one for kids...


     


    Probably the stupidest idea I've ever heard. It''s helpful to think things through when making such statements. 


     


    - Ok, so you've listed at least FOUR different UI paradigms


    - Whats the threshold for "old", "tech-savy" , and "kids"?


    - how will smoeone know which UI will work best for them? They will need to try each one. And research all the different features and pros/cons. So instead of learning ONE OS, to properly pick the most "ideal" one, you need to learn FOUR. 


    - Apple will need to advertise, maintain, support, and update multiple UIs. 


    - etc. 


     


    It would be a complete clusterfuck, and exactly the type of thing that Apple is vehemently against, complicating things to an infinite degree. A well designed OS can be both simple, intuitive, and powerful. What you're suggesting reeks of development incompetence, which is exactly why Samsung has an "easy mode" on their new phones. 

  • Reply 34 of 55
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member


    Multiple Themes UI was killed during the Mac OS 9 days. It's long since buried. That dog will never hunt.

  • Reply 35 of 55
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member


    So an unknown product with an unknown release date is expected to be shipped on time?

  • Reply 36 of 55
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    Just because a few people want to limit the meaning of the word to tasteless decoration doesn't redefine the actual word.

     


    Agree. There are people here and elsewhere who believe that, by criticizing, they are automatically spouting expertise.


     


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



    The bad skeuomorphism is where the recognition is either unnecessary or limiting. The Game Center UI doesn't really give the right impression of what it is. It's really just a score sheet so it would be better having an abstract representation. The leather in the calendar represents a particular style of calendar, which is limiting and again it can be more abstract.

     


    What you describe here could be a discussion of taste. My teenage daughter, for example, is overdoing it with animal print in her wardrobe. But that's her style. What is truly indefensible is when different styles of designs (including skeuomorphs) are adopted to different degrees in different places. This is what iOS has become. If we didn't know better, we'd assume iOS, Maps, Game Center and Mail were developed by four different companies. I expect, above all else, unification. 

  • Reply 37 of 55
    quest01quest01 Posts: 69member


    Im really looking forward to whats in store with ios7, I really think this is going to destroy the competition. Ivy and the rest of the engineering and design team have been working on this for years to perfect every microcosm of the entire experience and I really think we will have a winner here. This update will not only be better than android 4.2 but will destroy it from the inside out. 

  • Reply 38 of 55
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by dillio View Post

    I definitely support the idea of multiple versions of the GUI: one for older people, one for tech savvy, one for regular people, one for kids...


     


    "I definitely support the idea of being forced to relearn something I will use on a semi-daily basis for the rest of my natural life MULTIPLE TIMES during said lifespan, during some of the worst possible times to learn such things, and on the basis of arbitrary skill."


     


    That's you. And that's hilarious.





    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


    …which is exactly why Samsung has an "easy mode" on their new phones. 



     


    That I didn't know. And that's hilarious.





    Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

    So an unknown product with an unknown release date is expected to be shipped on time?


     


    Exactly*.


     


    *Which I know because I heard it from a guy.

  • Reply 39 of 55
    kdarlingkdarling Posts: 1,640member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dillio View Post



    I definitely support the idea of multiple versions of the GUI: one for older people, one for tech savvy, one for regular people, one for kids...


     


    A little bit of that already exists,


     


    For example, Apple ships iPads in "easy" mode, with the fancier four and five finger multi-touch control gestures turned off.  Experienced users can find and turn them on. 


     


    As for multiple versions, I think parents would love a kid's / grandparent's switch.... where, at the least, the  icon rearrangement / deletion mode is disabled.  


     


    Personally, I wish Apple had a mode for new users where built-in apps like Mail had text labels for the icons.  I've mailed an iPad to an octogenarian with no computer experience, and had to explain over the phone which tiny icon is the "compose mail" button.  Such things are not that intuitive for new computer users, no matter what the OS.

  • Reply 40 of 55
    anfboymnanfboymn Posts: 32member
    In other words, don't upgrade iOS or any mobile device until iOS 8 :)
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