But the one thing you're not factoring in is that at the end of those 3 years and $720 outlay for Photoshop CC, you still own *nothing* but a nice requirement to keep on paying that $240 a year just to be able to open all the work you've created. With a perpetual license, on the other hand, you can continue to use the program near indefinitely.
Ownership of a perpetual license is a tangible asset that must be factored into any value calculations. When done so, CC is not WAY cheaper in the long run, not by a long shot.
Creative Cloud is the equivalent of leasing a car over 3 years, paying the full outright cost during that time, and then having to turn the car back in and walk away with absolutely nothing. But even that's not bad enough. To truly see how bad the deal is, after turning in your car, you'd also be prohibited from driving on any roads you drove on while using that car.
To summarize: After 3 years of CC, you've paid more than buying the software outright, and this assumes you bought a full, retail version as opposed to upgrading from an older version. From that point, you can stop paying, loose access to the application(s) and any edibility of anything you've created during that time, or you can continue to pay indefinitely.
After 3 years ownership of a perpetual license, your investment is likely long since recovered and you can continue using your software for however long it continues to run on whatever OS/platform you use. 10 to 15 years is not an outrageous estimate. You maintain full access and edibility to anything you created, and anything you subsequently create. You could upgrade to the latest version for a relatively small amount. Or you could sell or transfer your license to another person if you no longer need it.
What's really sad/scary is how incapable people are at fully evaluating value in a purchase. Think about it. People are arguing that paying the same amount for something over 3 years, yet owning nothing is more valuable than buying something outright. I'm not saying there aren't scenarios where the subscription model doesn't have advantages, but value is *never* one of them. Never. There is no value in renting.
Adobe customer's split? What? No most of Adobe's customers love the idea! The other half complaining are the ones with pirated software and are crying because they might not be able to do it anymore.
Do any of you realize that now with Adobe CC we get these updates and new features YEAR ROUND and no longer have to wait till a new DVD package comes out???
Get off the "Lets bash Adobe" wagon and do your research first before you go lighting a torch. This is going too far these days.
Justin, you are mistaken... When Apple went to the Downloadable Only model for FCPX, they shaved - what - about 2/3 off the price! OSX upgrades used to be $129 (still way cheaper than Window's upgrades) but then download only for $39... then $29 and now $19. No brainer, upgrade the instant it's available. Not having to create a box, fill and distribute it. And, of course, we can download the software on to 5 computers (vs. 2 for Adobe).
Adobe is milking its US customers, no doubt about that, but what about us from Europe! We have to pay almost twice as much for the same software!! I have to pay almost $80 /month for the whole package in Denmark ... That is $960 per year!!
I'm a 44 year old designer, I love my computer, technology and until two days ago, Adobe.
Illustrator is the cornerstone of my business, followed closely by Photoshop. I upgrade my software when I'm ready and when I feel the next version is suitable to my business needs. I do not need the entire cloud for my business. In fact the talents of myself and those I hire are more specialized these days rather than diverse. I can imagine that there are only a handful of people out there who are competent with the entire line of CC applications. Having them all at my fingertip is of no benefit to me as a designer and the idea of $50/month to have that leaves me cold.
For me the company whose products I have used every day for 20 years has now turned its back on me. As a loyal CS user I'm shocked with the way it seems that Adobe thumbed its nose to us almost overnight and made me feel like I don't matter. It is an "assimilate or go away" attitude that I resent. My proposal is you can keep the Cloud, roll out the updates and then allow us "outsiders" to purchase our perpetual licenses every 12-18 months to a stable version that will stay compatible with the latest versions. Unless that happens I will continue with CS6 and look to other suitable options out there that will sure to come to market. Perhaps this new model will open the design world up to new choices and competition that will give us designers better products in the end instead of being locked into the Adobe monopoly.
Like cable companies who offer their wares at a special price for the first year to woo new customers, Adobe is doing the same.
Also like the cable companies, after a year the price jumps. What will the $50 monthly subscription cost be in 2015? $100 per month? More? What will happen to your documents stored on Adobe's cloud server?
When you buy an Adobe software suite, at least you know what it will cost you for three years.
I will not be subscribing, and I encourage software developers to take advantage of Adobe's many current customer's subscription negativity.
As a loyal CS user I'm shocked with the way it seems that Adobe thumbed its nose to us almost overnight and made me feel like I don't matter.
I think you are taking it too personally. As a CS user, you already have a diverse collection of Adobe applications. Adobe has no way to know that you only need Illustrator and Photoshop and work independently without collaboration with others that would require version compatibility. They are not thumbing their nose at you. $50 a month is simply the new normal for Adobe tools. In your case it may not be ideal but even if you only use Design Standard and upgrade every other version you still pay a couple hundred a year. For sake of discussion let's say the difference is $30 per month more than what you are used to paying. That is a dollar a day. Is that really going to break the bank? Plus you never have the one large expense when upgrading. The upside is that you do have access to all the titles and they are always up to date plus cloud services, sharing and backup. Adobe is streamlining their offerings and targeting primarily professionals. If $50 per month is way too much for your business, you might want to consider increasing your business offerings or raise your prices.
I know it is frustrating for a pure designer to increase revenue because as a designer you don't always have a way to provide value added services to your clients such as printing, web programming, trade show pop-up banners, etc. You know, real, hard, tangible products that you can mark up. For most diversified graphics businesses, even solo entrepreneurs, this new pricing is such a low level expense compared to all the other aspects of running a business, it just isn't worth worrying about.
There's a lot of piracy, yes, but as I and several other people have noted above, Creative Cloud will do precisely nothing to stop it. The apps are still installed and running locally, and you can save your data locally, so pirates will have no trouble at all cracking whatever online security features are in it.
Until the day that Adobe actually processes your data (filters, transforms, complicated calculations) in the cloud and not on your local computer, their software will be just as susceptible to piracy as it has always been.
Re: Piracy....maybe the hackers will make it work... maybe they won't. That's left to be seen though, and if successful... well.... it's your moral call whether to get on that ship or not.
This page and interview with Winston Hendrickson, VP of Creative Solutions, has a lot of info regarding the misconceptions of CC. I seriously suggest reading it.
This would resolve the major issue of the subscription model, which is the fact that as soon as the service ends, you're left with nothing. It would roughly equal what customers pay now for perpetual licenses, and any higher cost over the long term could be justified by the value in always remaining current with versions and features. And, finally, it would give long term, loyal customers residual value if/when service is stopped.
Without perpetual rights upon subscription termination, this is an obvious scheme to hold people's work hostage and compel a continual ransom payment. End of story.
Again, thank you for your contribution to the discussion. The model you've outlined would have me enroll in the Creative Cloud immediately.
Well said! For those of us that see the advantages of this new licensing... lets just hope Adobe sticks to their word and diligently and often, fixes bugs and offers new features that benefit us. Rather than waiting and force-fitting the "kitchen sink" features like video editing in Photoshop...(argh!)... in order to 'compel' the fence sitters to upgrade.
This is a huge opportunity for Adobe to streamline and retool the entire suite, dropping features that don't belong and are overlap... and make the suite actually work together as one.
You are absolutely free to purchase CS6 and use it for 3,4,5 years or longer. In the link I gave above, Adobe has stated that they will update CS6 to be compatible with the next OS versions of Windows and Mac... as well as throw camera support out to CS6 users... just none of the new camera raw features. Considering you don't need them... big deal, right?
I do have a funny feeling though, at about this time next year (Adobe MAX)... you're going to be itchin' rather badly to take a peak at and use all of the features added to CS since June 17, 2013.... plus those new killer ones they're sure to reel you in with. I could almost bet on that. If they don't... well... so what? You'll just go on enjoying CS6 and we subscribers are the idiot sheep. Actually, you should be rejoicing: you'll never ever have to pay for graphic software again in your life. Now how "coupon crushing saving" is that? :smokey:
@ Paul Connell - Perpetual Licensing Scheme
I guess the KISS principle doesn't really mean anything to you? Regardless of my thoughts on your presentation, you just may get your wish. See my comment above and the interview I've linked to. "Planned" is the key word... biut it's not set in stone.
It's also possible that Adobe get's class-action sued and is forced to offer a similar scheme to yours, kind of like with smart phones. For single software packages like PS, they are similar in price....???
Having worked for Adobe and being a 27+ year user of their products, I can understand the move to the Creative Cloud but some on the "math" displayed in this thread have my wondering if some of you know how to add?
eg: If I owned Photoshop Ext. for years (retail $1099 street price around $800) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $149. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $20/mo or $480 every 24 months for upgrades.
If I owned the Creative Suite Design Premium for years ($2100 retail street price around $1899) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $700. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $50/mo or $1200 every 24 months for upgrades (not including the "discounted" first year of Cloud)
If you don't already own their products, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a good deal. If however, you do already own their products, Adobe has effectively doubled/tripled the cost of upgrading your software. The ones getting stiffed are those that have supported them the longest.
This would resolve the major issue of the subscription model, which is the fact that as soon as the service ends, you're left with nothing. It would roughly equal what customers pay now for perpetual licenses, and any higher cost over the long term could be justified by the value in always remaining current with versions and features. And, finally, it would give long term, loyal customers residual value if/when service is stopped.
Without perpetual rights upon subscription termination, this is an obvious scheme to hold people's work hostage and compel a continual ransom payment. End of story.
Again, thank you for your contribution to the discussion. The model you've outlined would have me enroll in the Creative Cloud immediately.
I'm stretching the promise and premise of Adobe's intent here... but I think a lot of folks are missing what Adobe is doing here... or attempting to do.
First and foremost: there are no "versions" any more. They have stated this. There certainly will be some kind of number system to allow for roll-back versioning of the software in the case that an update screws up or messes with a users 3rd party plugins, font managers.. whatever. Adobe has also stated that provision.
The best way to look at this, is that it will be quite similar to an iOS device with many apps. Each app gets bug-fixes and versions whenever they are ready to roll. Expanding on that analogy with iOS devices, your favorite app A gets a complete new version, B gets a fix, C gets an added much awaited feature, D gets split into 2 apps, purchased or dropped because it's no longer needed. At any time, yes you can decide to update whenever you want to... or not after reading a bad review... staying put til such time as you have Wifi or the new, new fix actually works.
Simply: this is Perpetual Licensing vs. Perpetual Updates. You plain won't even know whether it's a good time to stop the sub or continue, because Murphy's Law says that the day you cancel, the next day will be the release of the feature or bug-fix you've been waiting for.
The above probably sounds double bad to some people I'm sure... but I still see it as a possible advantage. I also don't think that Adobe is going to be that stupid and roll out "versions" all at once at the same time. They surely will stager everything to keep people... well optimistically speaking, shall we use the wonderful marketing term.... engaged?! 8-)
The whole idea and my pushing for something new... is that the graphic design and software tools industry has seriously stagnated and been rather boring over the last few years, other than for web and mobile developments. This is something to shake it up a bit and see whether Adobe is up to the task in providing tools for the next 20 years.... or leave a window of opportunity for some new brother combo like Thomas and John Knoll to innovate and beat them down. Not unheard of... Pixelmator guys... you listening?
Having worked for Adobe and being a 27+ year user of their products, I can understand the move to the Creative Cloud but some on the "math" displayed in this thread have my wondering if some of you know how to add?
[...]
If I owned the Creative Suite Design Premium for years ($2100 retail street price around $1899) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $700. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $50/mo or $1200 every 24 months for upgrades (not including the "discounted" first year of Cloud)
Ok let's do some math based on your figures.
$1900 + $700 / 48 months = $54 per month. You are paying more, all up front, and you are always using old software with less features and fewer titles. Even if you extend it out to 72 months it is still $45 per month.
Edit: Plus you have to calculate sales tax as well for the tangible product so add another 8% +/- .
Having worked for Adobe and being a 27+ year user of their products, I can understand the move to the Creative Cloud but some on the "math" displayed in this thread have my wondering if some of you know how to add?
eg: If I owned Photoshop Ext. for years (retail $1099 street price around $800) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $149. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $20/mo or $480 every 24 months for upgrades.
If I owned the Creative Suite Design Premium for years ($2100 retail street price around $1899) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $700. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $50/mo or $1200 every 24 months for upgrades (not including the "discounted" first year of Cloud)
If you don't already own their products, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a good deal. If however, you do already own their products, Adobe has effectively doubled/tripled the cost of upgrading your software. The ones getting stiffed are those that have supported them the longest.
See my above post: there is no versioning. You can not effectively compare the 2 models at all IMO.
Just Imagine: Camera Raw 8, 9, 10, and 11 released by the end of the year... including a new setting for brushes in August, a revamped Filter for CSS export in September, and assorted improvements, bug-fixes, patterns, fonts, etc. from July thru December.
Now answer this within that scenario: what version are you on that you can compare it to a 2 year wait for those features and fixes?
Second question: why should we all wait for those advances until someone is ready to "upgrade"? The tech industry is moving at a 6-month (3-month really) speed these days. I and many of my clients need these tools actually yesterday, and I need them to also evolve at about that pace.**** Adobe has determined that this is also the best way to do that, rather than wait for mega-suite versions. I don't have a crystal ball to know whether it will work or not, but it certainly seems worth trying.
Note: I will admit that it is a f***ing shame that Adobe hasn't offered decent updates like this over the last decade. They would have a far easier time of moving people to CC if they had... and could half way be trusted. I'll take my chances... but I can "somewhat" sympathize with those that won't or can't afford to be that trusting.
**** I also dearly hope Apple has something killer with iOS 7 and new Macs... or else I'm a seriously a sad fool for all of these "hopefully optimistic" posts recently....:rolleyes:
I'm afraid your math doesn't work either as I I have already PAID for the Creative Suite. Spreading it out over a number or years as you have done, even further makes my point. If you have already purchased the software, to keep it current (no versioning any longer) I will be paying more per year than the old version method :-) I guess what I am saying is that if I am looking forward and not including the outlay I have already made, it will be a good deal. Maybe :-)
I'll like people to stop blaming everything on piracy. Everyone on this planet steals from each other. Hollywood stole a lot from pirates, like the name "Pirates of the Caribbean" for the movie. Did get permission from Modern Pirates about using the name. So you people know its in South America on coast, the fort is Pirates de Caribbean" NBC tv network have in works a show about Blackbeard called crossbones. An please don't get on here saying "the pirate of today are not same as pirates of 1400's" stop using the pirate flag and names for your products(games, movies, etc.) I'm a pirate designer, that own my software an hate developers dicking me around not fixing the bugs. Adobe CS 5, has some major bugs an adobe told me moved to CS 6. 1password people told me the same thing. The developer of app Thoth, has one way to pay for his products. All these developers do is complain about pirates doing this and that. Fix your products, you create pirates by playing your mind games. I just remember, one time I had to send in a copy of my Driver lic. So Macromedia to get my dreamweaver update (games)
I guess the KISS principle doesn't really mean anything to you?
The KISS principle is not some rigid, universal law and that you even suggest it applies here is, frankly, ridiculous. There are endless scenarios for the manner in which customers individually employ the tools Adobe creates - from hobbyists to one-man-shops to small, medium and large independent studios to large organizations, and that doesn't even touch upon the various general or specific focuses each of these might have. The notion that a single licensing scheme should suit every user of a product with such a user base is absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
Simply: this is Perpetual Licensing vs. Perpetual Updates. You plain won't even know whether it's a good time to stop the sub or continue
This makes no sense whatsoever. You damn well will know if it's a good time to stop the sub - and the answer is that, unless you're retiring, is it's NEVER a good time to stop your sub, because as soon as you do, you loose all access to everything - the applications and open/edit/update ability for everything you've ever created with those applications.
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
Second question: why should we all wait for those advances until someone is ready to "upgrade"? The tech industry is moving at a 6-month (3-month really) speed these days. I and many of my clients need these tools actually yesterday, and I need them to also evolve at about that pace.**** Adobe has determined that this is also the best way to do that, rather than wait for mega-suite versions. I don't have a crystal ball to know whether it will work or not, but it certainly seems worth trying.
Why should we all wait for someone else to be ready to upgrade? You shouldn't. But the opposite is also equally valid - why should someone who doesn't need every buggy new feature the second it hits a beta state be forced to pay for it? The answer is the same - they shouldn't. And that precisely highlights the absurdity of the one-size-fits-all licensing scheme.
And I can't help but notice the irony and tone of this line of reasoning - "why should we (meaning you) have to wait until I'm ready to upgrade", as if I'm somehow imposing on you. For the past year, we've both enjoyed the benefits of the licensing scheme that suits us best. No one has been pressuring Adobe to stop the subscription model, and I've repeatedly acknowledged it's benefits under the right circumstances. But it's you who is imposing on me - by so endorsing this new one-size-fits-all model. You suggest you are being imposed on when you're not being imposed on at all, at the very same time you endorse the imposition of all of us. I just love the hypocrisy.
Second, as for your comments about the industry moving at a 6 month (3-month really) speed... what does that even mean??!?!?!?
And again this entire problem goes away with the retention of usage rights after a subscription ends with a few simple conditions being met. No separate code bases - you're left with the state the program(s) were in at the time of termination. You're stopping your subscription? Oh, you've been a loyal customer for all these years? Here's links to the latest packaged installers, we're sorry to see you go and hope we can win you back in the future.
Not offering this can only be seen as being carefully and precisely crafted to compel people to never stop their subscription, and that's because under this model, Adobe knows it'll cost more people considerably more than it'll save the few who'll actually save.
Folks, we can split hairs on how much it would cost to own vs. subscribe monthly but people are failing to miss the bigger picture in my view:
1) This puts all the power into Adobe's hands. The customer has no leverage other than to stop using the software.
2) As they say "past performance indicates future behavior" If Adobe has failed to correct bugs in their software when they had the incentive/need to create software that was compelling enough that it would make people want to upgrade, what makes you think that they will do so when they have a bunch of people paying for software no matter what new features or bugs they fix? Their promise to do so?
3) If Adobe is successful, every other software maker will follow suit and then you will have a nice fat monthly subscription to all the software you use.
So, welcome to the world of recurring monthly rental fees for everything. Want to get off the train? no problem. You simply have to wait until your contract is over and then you can walk off the train with nothing to show for all the years of payments you've made.
Maybe this is the way the world is moving, but I'm sure as heck not going to help them accelerate the process if I can.
The most logical thing I have heard is to allow people to go with the cloud versions of these tools, or continue to buy the perpetual license and then upgrade as they like. Whether that is every upgrade or every other upgrade should up to the customer, not the developer.
I work with a non-profit group and we can't afford to have all of our users have to pay monthly for the privilege of using their software.
I will spend the money to buy as many copies of the last edition of CS6 and then ride it out from there until:
1) Adobe wakes up and reconsiders their plans (which I doubt will happen)
2) A competitor comes up with an alternative or group of developers figures out how to cooperate and make their apps interoperable and affordable.
With the ability to virtualize the os on our macs we can continue using OS X 10.8 or 10.9 for as long as we need to in order to continue using CS6 for years to come.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell
But the one thing you're not factoring in is that at the end of those 3 years and $720 outlay for Photoshop CC, you still own *nothing* but a nice requirement to keep on paying that $240 a year just to be able to open all the work you've created. With a perpetual license, on the other hand, you can continue to use the program near indefinitely.
Ownership of a perpetual license is a tangible asset that must be factored into any value calculations. When done so, CC is not WAY cheaper in the long run, not by a long shot.
Creative Cloud is the equivalent of leasing a car over 3 years, paying the full outright cost during that time, and then having to turn the car back in and walk away with absolutely nothing. But even that's not bad enough. To truly see how bad the deal is, after turning in your car, you'd also be prohibited from driving on any roads you drove on while using that car.
To summarize: After 3 years of CC, you've paid more than buying the software outright, and this assumes you bought a full, retail version as opposed to upgrading from an older version. From that point, you can stop paying, loose access to the application(s) and any edibility of anything you've created during that time, or you can continue to pay indefinitely.
After 3 years ownership of a perpetual license, your investment is likely long since recovered and you can continue using your software for however long it continues to run on whatever OS/platform you use. 10 to 15 years is not an outrageous estimate. You maintain full access and edibility to anything you created, and anything you subsequently create. You could upgrade to the latest version for a relatively small amount. Or you could sell or transfer your license to another person if you no longer need it.
What's really sad/scary is how incapable people are at fully evaluating value in a purchase. Think about it. People are arguing that paying the same amount for something over 3 years, yet owning nothing is more valuable than buying something outright. I'm not saying there aren't scenarios where the subscription model doesn't have advantages, but value is *never* one of them. Never. There is no value in renting.
A Huge +1. Thank you Paul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Otstott
Adobe customer's split? What? No most of Adobe's customers love the idea! The other half complaining are the ones with pirated software and are crying because they might not be able to do it anymore.
Do any of you realize that now with Adobe CC we get these updates and new features YEAR ROUND and no longer have to wait till a new DVD package comes out???
Get off the "Lets bash Adobe" wagon and do your research first before you go lighting a torch. This is going too far these days.
Justin, you are mistaken... When Apple went to the Downloadable Only model for FCPX, they shaved - what - about 2/3 off the price! OSX upgrades used to be $129 (still way cheaper than Window's upgrades) but then download only for $39... then $29 and now $19. No brainer, upgrade the instant it's available. Not having to create a box, fill and distribute it. And, of course, we can download the software on to 5 computers (vs. 2 for Adobe).
Illustrator is the cornerstone of my business, followed closely by Photoshop. I upgrade my software when I'm ready and when I feel the next version is suitable to my business needs. I do not need the entire cloud for my business. In fact the talents of myself and those I hire are more specialized these days rather than diverse. I can imagine that there are only a handful of people out there who are competent with the entire line of CC applications. Having them all at my fingertip is of no benefit to me as a designer and the idea of $50/month to have that leaves me cold.
For me the company whose products I have used every day for 20 years has now turned its back on me. As a loyal CS user I'm shocked with the way it seems that Adobe thumbed its nose to us almost overnight and made me feel like I don't matter. It is an "assimilate or go away" attitude that I resent. My proposal is you can keep the Cloud, roll out the updates and then allow us "outsiders" to purchase our perpetual licenses every 12-18 months to a stable version that will stay compatible with the latest versions. Unless that happens I will continue with CS6 and look to other suitable options out there that will sure to come to market. Perhaps this new model will open the design world up to new choices and competition that will give us designers better products in the end instead of being locked into the Adobe monopoly.
Like cable companies who offer their wares at a special price for the first year to woo new customers, Adobe is doing the same.
Also like the cable companies, after a year the price jumps. What will the $50 monthly subscription cost be in 2015? $100 per month? More? What will happen to your documents stored on Adobe's cloud server?
When you buy an Adobe software suite, at least you know what it will cost you for three years.
I will not be subscribing, and I encourage software developers to take advantage of Adobe's many current customer's subscription negativity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockdock
As a loyal CS user I'm shocked with the way it seems that Adobe thumbed its nose to us almost overnight and made me feel like I don't matter.
I think you are taking it too personally. As a CS user, you already have a diverse collection of Adobe applications. Adobe has no way to know that you only need Illustrator and Photoshop and work independently without collaboration with others that would require version compatibility. They are not thumbing their nose at you. $50 a month is simply the new normal for Adobe tools. In your case it may not be ideal but even if you only use Design Standard and upgrade every other version you still pay a couple hundred a year. For sake of discussion let's say the difference is $30 per month more than what you are used to paying. That is a dollar a day. Is that really going to break the bank? Plus you never have the one large expense when upgrading. The upside is that you do have access to all the titles and they are always up to date plus cloud services, sharing and backup. Adobe is streamlining their offerings and targeting primarily professionals. If $50 per month is way too much for your business, you might want to consider increasing your business offerings or raise your prices.
I know it is frustrating for a pure designer to increase revenue because as a designer you don't always have a way to provide value added services to your clients such as printing, web programming, trade show pop-up banners, etc. You know, real, hard, tangible products that you can mark up. For most diversified graphics businesses, even solo entrepreneurs, this new pricing is such a low level expense compared to all the other aspects of running a business, it just isn't worth worrying about.
Re: Piracy....maybe the hackers will make it work... maybe they won't. That's left to be seen though, and if successful... well.... it's your moral call whether to get on that ship or not.
This page and interview with Winston Hendrickson, VP of Creative Solutions, has a lot of info regarding the misconceptions of CC. I seriously suggest reading it.
Photoshop CC: Adobe responds to reactions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell
This would resolve the major issue of the subscription model, which is the fact that as soon as the service ends, you're left with nothing. It would roughly equal what customers pay now for perpetual licenses, and any higher cost over the long term could be justified by the value in always remaining current with versions and features. And, finally, it would give long term, loyal customers residual value if/when service is stopped.
Without perpetual rights upon subscription termination, this is an obvious scheme to hold people's work hostage and compel a continual ransom payment. End of story.
Again, thank you for your contribution to the discussion. The model you've outlined would have me enroll in the Creative Cloud immediately.
Well said! For those of us that see the advantages of this new licensing... lets just hope Adobe sticks to their word and diligently and often, fixes bugs and offers new features that benefit us. Rather than waiting and force-fitting the "kitchen sink" features like video editing in Photoshop...(argh!)... in order to 'compel' the fence sitters to upgrade.
This is a huge opportunity for Adobe to streamline and retool the entire suite, dropping features that don't belong and are overlap... and make the suite actually work together as one.
@Rockdock
You are absolutely free to purchase CS6 and use it for 3,4,5 years or longer. In the link I gave above, Adobe has stated that they will update CS6 to be compatible with the next OS versions of Windows and Mac... as well as throw camera support out to CS6 users... just none of the new camera raw features. Considering you don't need them... big deal, right?
I do have a funny feeling though, at about this time next year (Adobe MAX)... you're going to be itchin' rather badly to take a peak at and use all of the features added to CS since June 17, 2013.... plus those new killer ones they're sure to reel you in with. I could almost bet on that. If they don't... well... so what? You'll just go on enjoying CS6 and we subscribers are the idiot sheep. Actually, you should be rejoicing: you'll never ever have to pay for graphic software again in your life. Now how "coupon crushing saving" is that? :smokey:
@ Paul Connell - Perpetual Licensing Scheme
I guess the KISS principle doesn't really mean anything to you? Regardless of my thoughts on your presentation, you just may get your wish. See my comment above and the interview I've linked to. "Planned" is the key word... biut it's not set in stone.
It's also possible that Adobe get's class-action sued and is forced to offer a similar scheme to yours, kind of like with smart phones. For single software packages like PS, they are similar in price....???
Having worked for Adobe and being a 27+ year user of their products, I can understand the move to the Creative Cloud but some on the "math" displayed in this thread have my wondering if some of you know how to add?
eg: If I owned Photoshop Ext. for years (retail $1099 street price around $800) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $149. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $20/mo or $480 every 24 months for upgrades.
If I owned the Creative Suite Design Premium for years ($2100 retail street price around $1899) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $700. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $50/mo or $1200 every 24 months for upgrades (not including the "discounted" first year of Cloud)
If you don't already own their products, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a good deal. If however, you do already own their products, Adobe has effectively doubled/tripled the cost of upgrading your software. The ones getting stiffed are those that have supported them the longest.
I'm stretching the promise and premise of Adobe's intent here... but I think a lot of folks are missing what Adobe is doing here... or attempting to do.
First and foremost: there are no "versions" any more. They have stated this. There certainly will be some kind of number system to allow for roll-back versioning of the software in the case that an update screws up or messes with a users 3rd party plugins, font managers.. whatever. Adobe has also stated that provision.
The best way to look at this, is that it will be quite similar to an iOS device with many apps. Each app gets bug-fixes and versions whenever they are ready to roll. Expanding on that analogy with iOS devices, your favorite app A gets a complete new version, B gets a fix, C gets an added much awaited feature, D gets split into 2 apps, purchased or dropped because it's no longer needed. At any time, yes you can decide to update whenever you want to... or not after reading a bad review... staying put til such time as you have Wifi or the new, new fix actually works.
Simply: this is Perpetual Licensing vs. Perpetual Updates. You plain won't even know whether it's a good time to stop the sub or continue, because Murphy's Law says that the day you cancel, the next day will be the release of the feature or bug-fix you've been waiting for.
The above probably sounds double bad to some people I'm sure... but I still see it as a possible advantage. I also don't think that Adobe is going to be that stupid and roll out "versions" all at once at the same time. They surely will stager everything to keep people... well optimistically speaking, shall we use the wonderful marketing term.... engaged?! 8-)
The whole idea and my pushing for something new... is that the graphic design and software tools industry has seriously stagnated and been rather boring over the last few years, other than for web and mobile developments. This is something to shake it up a bit and see whether Adobe is up to the task in providing tools for the next 20 years.... or leave a window of opportunity for some new brother combo like Thomas and John Knoll to innovate and beat them down. Not unheard of... Pixelmator guys... you listening?
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfiniteWill
Having worked for Adobe and being a 27+ year user of their products, I can understand the move to the Creative Cloud but some on the "math" displayed in this thread have my wondering if some of you know how to add?
[...]
If I owned the Creative Suite Design Premium for years ($2100 retail street price around $1899) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $700. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $50/mo or $1200 every 24 months for upgrades (not including the "discounted" first year of Cloud)
Ok let's do some math based on your figures.
$1900 + $700 / 48 months = $54 per month. You are paying more, all up front, and you are always using old software with less features and fewer titles. Even if you extend it out to 72 months it is still $45 per month.
Edit: Plus you have to calculate sales tax as well for the tangible product so add another 8% +/- .
See my above post: there is no versioning. You can not effectively compare the 2 models at all IMO.
Just Imagine: Camera Raw 8, 9, 10, and 11 released by the end of the year... including a new setting for brushes in August, a revamped Filter for CSS export in September, and assorted improvements, bug-fixes, patterns, fonts, etc. from July thru December.
Now answer this within that scenario: what version are you on that you can compare it to a 2 year wait for those features and fixes?
Second question: why should we all wait for those advances until someone is ready to "upgrade"? The tech industry is moving at a 6-month (3-month really) speed these days. I and many of my clients need these tools actually yesterday, and I need them to also evolve at about that pace.**** Adobe has determined that this is also the best way to do that, rather than wait for mega-suite versions. I don't have a crystal ball to know whether it will work or not, but it certainly seems worth trying.
Note: I will admit that it is a f***ing shame that Adobe hasn't offered decent updates like this over the last decade. They would have a far easier time of moving people to CC if they had... and could half way be trusted. I'll take my chances... but I can "somewhat" sympathize with those that won't or can't afford to be that trusting.
**** I also dearly hope Apple has something killer with iOS 7 and new Macs... or else I'm a seriously a sad fool for all of these "hopefully optimistic" posts recently....:rolleyes:
I'm afraid your math doesn't work either as I I have already PAID for the Creative Suite. Spreading it out over a number or years as you have done, even further makes my point. If you have already purchased the software, to keep it current (no versioning any longer) I will be paying more per year than the old version method :-) I guess what I am saying is that if I am looking forward and not including the outlay I have already made, it will be a good deal. Maybe :-)
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
@ Paul Connell - Perpetual Licensing Scheme
I guess the KISS principle doesn't really mean anything to you?
The KISS principle is not some rigid, universal law and that you even suggest it applies here is, frankly, ridiculous. There are endless scenarios for the manner in which customers individually employ the tools Adobe creates - from hobbyists to one-man-shops to small, medium and large independent studios to large organizations, and that doesn't even touch upon the various general or specific focuses each of these might have. The notion that a single licensing scheme should suit every user of a product with such a user base is absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
Simply: this is Perpetual Licensing vs. Perpetual Updates. You plain won't even know whether it's a good time to stop the sub or continue
This makes no sense whatsoever. You damn well will know if it's a good time to stop the sub - and the answer is that, unless you're retiring, is it's NEVER a good time to stop your sub, because as soon as you do, you loose all access to everything - the applications and open/edit/update ability for everything you've ever created with those applications.
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
Second question: why should we all wait for those advances until someone is ready to "upgrade"? The tech industry is moving at a 6-month (3-month really) speed these days. I and many of my clients need these tools actually yesterday, and I need them to also evolve at about that pace.**** Adobe has determined that this is also the best way to do that, rather than wait for mega-suite versions. I don't have a crystal ball to know whether it will work or not, but it certainly seems worth trying.
Why should we all wait for someone else to be ready to upgrade? You shouldn't. But the opposite is also equally valid - why should someone who doesn't need every buggy new feature the second it hits a beta state be forced to pay for it? The answer is the same - they shouldn't. And that precisely highlights the absurdity of the one-size-fits-all licensing scheme.
And I can't help but notice the irony and tone of this line of reasoning - "why should we (meaning you) have to wait until I'm ready to upgrade", as if I'm somehow imposing on you. For the past year, we've both enjoyed the benefits of the licensing scheme that suits us best. No one has been pressuring Adobe to stop the subscription model, and I've repeatedly acknowledged it's benefits under the right circumstances. But it's you who is imposing on me - by so endorsing this new one-size-fits-all model. You suggest you are being imposed on when you're not being imposed on at all, at the very same time you endorse the imposition of all of us. I just love the hypocrisy.
Second, as for your comments about the industry moving at a 6 month (3-month really) speed... what does that even mean??!?!?!?
And again this entire problem goes away with the retention of usage rights after a subscription ends with a few simple conditions being met. No separate code bases - you're left with the state the program(s) were in at the time of termination. You're stopping your subscription? Oh, you've been a loyal customer for all these years? Here's links to the latest packaged installers, we're sorry to see you go and hope we can win you back in the future.
Not offering this can only be seen as being carefully and precisely crafted to compel people to never stop their subscription, and that's because under this model, Adobe knows it'll cost more people considerably more than it'll save the few who'll actually save.
Folks, we can split hairs on how much it would cost to own vs. subscribe monthly but people are failing to miss the bigger picture in my view:
1) This puts all the power into Adobe's hands. The customer has no leverage other than to stop using the software.
2) As they say "past performance indicates future behavior" If Adobe has failed to correct bugs in their software when they had the incentive/need to create software that was compelling enough that it would make people want to upgrade, what makes you think that they will do so when they have a bunch of people paying for software no matter what new features or bugs they fix? Their promise to do so?
3) If Adobe is successful, every other software maker will follow suit and then you will have a nice fat monthly subscription to all the software you use.
So, welcome to the world of recurring monthly rental fees for everything. Want to get off the train? no problem. You simply have to wait until your contract is over and then you can walk off the train with nothing to show for all the years of payments you've made.
Maybe this is the way the world is moving, but I'm sure as heck not going to help them accelerate the process if I can.
The most logical thing I have heard is to allow people to go with the cloud versions of these tools, or continue to buy the perpetual license and then upgrade as they like. Whether that is every upgrade or every other upgrade should up to the customer, not the developer.
I work with a non-profit group and we can't afford to have all of our users have to pay monthly for the privilege of using their software.
I will spend the money to buy as many copies of the last edition of CS6 and then ride it out from there until:
1) Adobe wakes up and reconsiders their plans (which I doubt will happen)
2) A competitor comes up with an alternative or group of developers figures out how to cooperate and make their apps interoperable and affordable.
With the ability to virtualize the os on our macs we can continue using OS X 10.8 or 10.9 for as long as we need to in order to continue using CS6 for years to come.
My point was I'll be paying for cell phone service over the next 18 years... it was never about the cost of the device.
And that's what Adobe is doing now... Creative Cloud is kinda like software as a service.
If you pay to use it... you can keep using it. But once your payments stop... so does your access to the software.
Just like if I stop paying for my cell phone service.