You really have access to OEM (ie Apple battery) for $50? Or is it a chinese knock-off passed off as a OEM battery that could have consequences later on (like expanding from heat, and blowing up like other aftermarket batteries have in the past)?
I doubt most have been as have been as hard on a MBP as I have. Running dual drives (SSD 256 & 7200 500gb in optical bay) and iOS and Mac programming an average of 10 hours a day 5-6 days a week for the last 2 years. My battery is still doing great. Doesn't mean all batteries will last like that, but no one at work or in my programming ring has had issues with batteries.
BTW, isn't the retina 15" glued in? Is it still easy to replace?
To answer your questions in order:
Yes, it really is a certified OEM replacement. Believe it or not, there are businesses that repair Apple products other than Apple itself, and have access to the full distribution line of genuine replacement parts. As for the Chinese knockoffs, those are easy to spot and are usually priced around $29. Not all explode, but hey, buyer beware. For 20 bucks more, I'll take the non explodey real McCoy.
As for your system, I'm thrilled for you. I have a similar setup, except mine is running a 512 SSD with a 1TB 7200 drive in the optical bay. Yes, I need that much space. As I said above, my MPB is a 2009, and has been running nonstop as my main machine since the day I bought it almost 4 years ago. After many, many recharge cycles, battery health was down to 68% by March, which was giving me maybe 2.5 hours of up time on average which was not acceptable. Like I said, this is my work machine, and my work doesn't always take place near a power outlet. So ten minutes and 50 dollars later, I'm back up to 100% (well, 99, but close enough)
As for the 15" rMBP, yes, it is glued in. If you know what you're doing, it can relatively quickly be removed with a heat gun. If you don't have experience with a heat gun, Isopropyl alcohol works just as well though is a bit more time consuming. This is the method I recommend to my friends who DON'T know how to use a heat gun and have no business applying heat anywhere near a Lithium Ion battery. As you point out, most modern laptop batteries last a good three years before replacement should even be contemplated, so I expect many, many how-to videos to be posted to the internet before then. Till that happens, here's a basic one that shows just what isopropyl alcohol does to the type of glue used to secure the batteries inside the rMBPs. Yes, I understand DIY is not everyone's cup of tea, "everyone" being most Apple users. Ignorance is bliss, I imagine. There are those of us, however, who prefer to do things ourselves when it is possible, and make it a point of pride to do so. You yourself have performed the wonderful optical-to-HDD swap, so I imagine you have an inkling of what I'm talking about. Perhaps you're like me and change your own oil instead of paying a stranger 80 dollars to do it for you as well.
They are good for 1000 full cycles before they at 80% original capacity. If you're talking about a bad battery treat it like a bad component that needs to be replaced. This whole notion that everything should be user-replaceable is an archaic and outmoded concept in 2013 for a consumer device.
The hell it is.
Up until my current MBP, I had an external charger and a couple of spare batteries. I could do a quick swap and keep going, I could take the spares with me on a plane and not have to worry about running out of power on a long flight, it just made my life easier.
Oh, and they don't really go for 1000 cycles, the life drops significantly at around 600-700 cycles. Sure, it's better than the 300 cycles of the previous batteries, but hardly enough to justify locking it inside the case. And no, even new it doesn't have the runtime of two of the old batteries, so I actually have less useable time before I have to go find an outlet.
Speaking of consumer device, this is the MacBook PRO we're talking about, a computer built for people who need to be able to do actual work with it. Non-user-replaceable batteries would be absolutely unforgivable if it weren't the only available machine that runs a useable OS. As it is, it's incredibly frustrating.
If Apple would give up the stupid obsession with thin on pro devices we'd all be better off. I'd love to have a modern MBP built on the PowerBook G3 series platform, with swappable bays for drives, ports on the back, capability for multiple batteries, and easy access to change hard drives and RAM.
Historically for most of those 31 years, the desktop chip market was where most of the action was. But Intel has been making lower power versions of the Core, Core 2, and Core i3, i5, and i7 for quite some time now. The 2010 MacBook Air had an ultra low power version of the Core 2 Duo, allowing the Air to hit 10 hours continuous hours of Web surfing with the backlight turned down, and Flash disabled. The Atom CPU is another attempt to bring low power requirements to the x86 chip market. Intel knew the trend in mobile computing was coming. They weren't particularly prescient about it, but neither did they just stumble onto it.
I never said "all", but of course if Apple customers were buying lots of non-Apple-branded computers that would tell a very different story, wouldn'd it?
I work in a mixed shop myself. And yes, Linux and nearly any POSIX system is a wonderful alternative to Windows. But I recognize that among Mac owners, I'm in a slender minority. Most people use a single computer, and the relative few Mac users who use Windows daily probably do so at work, where they didn't purchase the machine. You know what I'm saying. You and I are rare edge cases in the Mac demographic.
The great irony is that Linux is `mostly POSIX compliant' and as I'm typing on Debian Linux there is a world of difference from my days using HP-UX Apollos, DECStations OSF/1, to System V and BSD 4.3 NeXTStations before working at NeXT and Apple.
Now with 14 solid years of Debian Linux mixed with CertOS next to OS X I'll take OS X hands down other than specific server scenarios; and even then I'm counting the days when FreeBSD 10 drops with LLVM/Clang/LLDB/Compiler-RT/Libc++ replacing the GCC Toolchain.
The great irony is that Linux is `mostly POSIX compliant' and as I'm typing on Debian Linux there is a world of difference from my days using HP-UX Apollos, DECStations OSF/1, to System V and BSD 4.3 NeXTStations before working at NeXT and Apple.
Of the above what was your favorite?
Now with 14 solid years of Debian Linux mixed with CertOS next to OS X I'll take OS X hands down other than specific server scenarios;
This would be my preference also. OS/X is possibly the best general purpose OS out there right now. However it looses badly when it comes to hardware support, which interestingly Linux does better at now a days. Apples problem here is the lack of cost effective hardware to plug specialized hardware into. This there is little incentive to write drivers for Apples OS/X.
and even then I'm counting the days when FreeBSD 10 drops with LLVM/Clang/LLDB/Compiler-RT/Libc++ replacing the GCC Toolchain.
Never really tried BSD. It will certainly be an interesting beast with the LLVM tool chain but honestly I'd probably wait for FreeBSD 11 or at least a few months of bug fixes to take place. The important thing is for BSD to free itself as much as possible from the GPL. Even then the thing that causes me to keep Linux around is software you can't find anywhere else. I'd love to see a realtime extension to FreeBSD.
[...] 95% of users will never need or want to replace their batteries.
Why do people always assume that because THEY don't see a need, no one ELSE does?
The fact that people buy Macs with glued-in batteries does not automatically mean they don't care, it means they don't have any CHOICE. If you want a laptop running OS X, you can't have a removable battery. Some people suck it up and live with it, others, for whom enduring battery power is important, undoubtedly choose something other than a Mac.
My wife used to use her old MacBook Pro in the field all day. When one battery died she'd swap it out and I'd run it back to home base to recharge. Between her two and the one in my machine she was able to stay out there for as long as I was willing to run them back and forth. That's something we just plain can't do with the unibody.
My nearly four year old MBP has a battery health of 87%. I'll have a Retina MBP long before my battery fails.
So when you get a new computer, the old one will go in the recycling bin, right?
No? You'll SELL it you say.
So, the battery won't be a problem... FOR YOU. You can just offload that particular inconvenience to the NEXT user!
(Lest I come across as being an evangelist for removable batteries, I actually don't really care that much since mine is almost always plugged in to mains power anyway, but some of the arguments in defence of Apple's choices are amusing!)
I have never --repeat, never-- replaced a laptop battery in my life
...because you just buy a new computer instead. I presume that when your tires wear out you just buy a new car?
We recently replaced my wife's first Mac, which we purchased in 2007. When we retired it after five-and-a-half years it was on its third battery. We have two duds that will no longer take a charge. We got about two years out of each one. Replacing the computer on that timetable would have be substantially more expensive than just buying new batteries. I guess we can still pay someone to replace the internal battery, but I can't imagine that will be as easy or inexpensive as just grabbing a new battery off the shelf.
Besides, we also used multiple batteries to extend the time we could be away from mains power. You can't do that with a fixed battery.
There are benefits to the glued-in battery, but it's not without certain sacrifices.
My wife used to use her old MacBook Pro in the field all day. When one battery died she'd swap it out and I'd run it back to home base to recharge. Between her two and the one in my machine she was able to stay out there for as long as I was willing to run them back and forth. That's something we just plain can't do with the unibody.
I found the removable batteries used to last a lot less than the sealed ones. They had a rated 5 hour battery life vs 7. There are also external battery options, this one's quite expensive:
If you used one of those for 7 hours first, then went to the internal for 7 hours and charged the pack and used it for 7 hours, you'd get 21 hour straight usage.
It's true that a second-hand machine could mean getting a new battery from Apple but that's a risk in buying an older machine. Apple's prices are here:
it still adds to the cost and makes other compromises to the machine (how do you have a user replaceable battery in a unibody design) when the battery should already last about 3 years if you drain it and charge it every single day.
I've never had to replace a battery on a unibody MacBook and we've had over a half dozen of them.
And by compromises and cost you surely must mean a normal screw type versus a tri wing screw used in the unibody.
PS. Batteries NEVER fail...which is why Apple has ONLY a 1 year warranty.
I found the removable batteries used to last a lot less than the sealed ones. They had a rated 5 hour battery life vs 7. .
There was more involved in that improvement than just the battery, but there's truth to what you say. Once again, people don't realize the tradeoffs that are involved. A removable battery requires more materials - both in the battery and in the support structure. It is a component that can become loose and cause problems. It takes up extra space which makes the system larger - and reduces the amount of available battery capacity.
Just like with soldered RAM, an integral, non-replaceable battery is the most robust way to do it and will offer the greatest long term reliability. Yes, when you need to replace a battery, it takes a little more time, but it's not an enormous amount of time. Apple has chosen to trade reliability and bulk reduction and higher capacity for a slightly more expensive battery swap. I don't think that's a bad tradeoff.
And if you do need to go more than 7 hours (or whatever your model is) away from a power outlet, get an external battery pack. No less convenient than a replaceable battery.
Still doesn't solve the problem of being without your laptop for a few days while its battery gets changed when it goes bad. Not to mention Apple's overpriced battery replacement fee.
What total bullshit! It does not take a few days to change the battery, with Apple or authorized service center! And their batteries are state of the art so last a very very long time.
Still doesn't solve the problem of being without your laptop for a few days while its battery gets changed when it goes bad. Not to mention Apple's overpriced battery replacement fee.
True, having to go without your laptop for a few days once every 3 or 4 years can be inconvenient but I think you could manage.
Ooh! Back on the Intel hype train, are we? All aboard! Next stop: It'd Be Nice If It Were True Like They Claimed A Few Years Ago, But We Probably Won't Suffer Too Much If It Isn't And As Long As They Don't Switch To iGPUs Across The Entire Lineup…ville.
It would be great if Apple could pitch the MacBook Air as having 10-12 hours of battery.
Intel does seem to over promise with their new chips. I wounded if they will still use the TIM or go back to the flux solder used in the Sandy chips.
Not as convenient as an internal battery and you're right, more expensive, but it's nice to have the option. In some circumstances the need will justify the cost and slight hassle. The ability to charge it from the car battery is really handy too. I've always wondered why Apple doesn't provide a cig lighter power adaptor. I'm sure there's a reason, I just can't imagine what it might be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
[...] It's $129 for cMBP, $179 for 17" cMBP, $199 for rMBP. It would be nice if the rMBP was $129 too as that's not a huge expense.
That's actually better than I was imagining. Anything around a buck and a half is pretty easy to swallow. $200 for the Retina is right on the threshold of pain though.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647
You really have access to OEM (ie Apple battery) for $50? Or is it a chinese knock-off passed off as a OEM battery that could have consequences later on (like expanding from heat, and blowing up like other aftermarket batteries have in the past)?
I doubt most have been as have been as hard on a MBP as I have. Running dual drives (SSD 256 & 7200 500gb in optical bay) and iOS and Mac programming an average of 10 hours a day 5-6 days a week for the last 2 years. My battery is still doing great. Doesn't mean all batteries will last like that, but no one at work or in my programming ring has had issues with batteries.
BTW, isn't the retina 15" glued in? Is it still easy to replace?
To answer your questions in order:
Yes, it really is a certified OEM replacement. Believe it or not, there are businesses that repair Apple products other than Apple itself, and have access to the full distribution line of genuine replacement parts. As for the Chinese knockoffs, those are easy to spot and are usually priced around $29. Not all explode, but hey, buyer beware. For 20 bucks more, I'll take the non explodey real McCoy.
As for your system, I'm thrilled for you. I have a similar setup, except mine is running a 512 SSD with a 1TB 7200 drive in the optical bay. Yes, I need that much space. As I said above, my MPB is a 2009, and has been running nonstop as my main machine since the day I bought it almost 4 years ago. After many, many recharge cycles, battery health was down to 68% by March, which was giving me maybe 2.5 hours of up time on average which was not acceptable. Like I said, this is my work machine, and my work doesn't always take place near a power outlet. So ten minutes and 50 dollars later, I'm back up to 100% (well, 99, but close enough)
As for the 15" rMBP, yes, it is glued in. If you know what you're doing, it can relatively quickly be removed with a heat gun. If you don't have experience with a heat gun, Isopropyl alcohol works just as well though is a bit more time consuming. This is the method I recommend to my friends who DON'T know how to use a heat gun and have no business applying heat anywhere near a Lithium Ion battery. As you point out, most modern laptop batteries last a good three years before replacement should even be contemplated, so I expect many, many how-to videos to be posted to the internet before then. Till that happens, here's a basic one that shows just what isopropyl alcohol does to the type of glue used to secure the batteries inside the rMBPs. Yes, I understand DIY is not everyone's cup of tea, "everyone" being most Apple users. Ignorance is bliss, I imagine. There are those of us, however, who prefer to do things ourselves when it is possible, and make it a point of pride to do so. You yourself have performed the wonderful optical-to-HDD swap, so I imagine you have an inkling of what I'm talking about. Perhaps you're like me and change your own oil instead of paying a stranger 80 dollars to do it for you as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
They are good for 1000 full cycles before they at 80% original capacity. If you're talking about a bad battery treat it like a bad component that needs to be replaced. This whole notion that everything should be user-replaceable is an archaic and outmoded concept in 2013 for a consumer device.
The hell it is.
Up until my current MBP, I had an external charger and a couple of spare batteries. I could do a quick swap and keep going, I could take the spares with me on a plane and not have to worry about running out of power on a long flight, it just made my life easier.
Oh, and they don't really go for 1000 cycles, the life drops significantly at around 600-700 cycles. Sure, it's better than the 300 cycles of the previous batteries, but hardly enough to justify locking it inside the case. And no, even new it doesn't have the runtime of two of the old batteries, so I actually have less useable time before I have to go find an outlet.
Speaking of consumer device, this is the MacBook PRO we're talking about, a computer built for people who need to be able to do actual work with it. Non-user-replaceable batteries would be absolutely unforgivable if it weren't the only available machine that runs a useable OS. As it is, it's incredibly frustrating.
If Apple would give up the stupid obsession with thin on pro devices we'd all be better off. I'd love to have a modern MBP built on the PowerBook G3 series platform, with swappable bays for drives, ports on the back, capability for multiple batteries, and easy access to change hard drives and RAM.
Historically for most of those 31 years, the desktop chip market was where most of the action was. But Intel has been making lower power versions of the Core, Core 2, and Core i3, i5, and i7 for quite some time now. The 2010 MacBook Air had an ultra low power version of the Core 2 Duo, allowing the Air to hit 10 hours continuous hours of Web surfing with the backlight turned down, and Flash disabled. The Atom CPU is another attempt to bring low power requirements to the x86 chip market. Intel knew the trend in mobile computing was coming. They weren't particularly prescient about it, but neither did they just stumble onto it.
deleted
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez
I never said "all", but of course if Apple customers were buying lots of non-Apple-branded computers that would tell a very different story, wouldn'd it?
I work in a mixed shop myself. And yes, Linux and nearly any POSIX system is a wonderful alternative to Windows. But I recognize that among Mac owners, I'm in a slender minority. Most people use a single computer, and the relative few Mac users who use Windows daily probably do so at work, where they didn't purchase the machine. You know what I'm saying. You and I are rare edge cases in the Mac demographic.
The great irony is that Linux is `mostly POSIX compliant' and as I'm typing on Debian Linux there is a world of difference from my days using HP-UX Apollos, DECStations OSF/1, to System V and BSD 4.3 NeXTStations before working at NeXT and Apple.
Now with 14 solid years of Debian Linux mixed with CertOS next to OS X I'll take OS X hands down other than specific server scenarios; and even then I'm counting the days when FreeBSD 10 drops with LLVM/Clang/LLDB/Compiler-RT/Libc++ replacing the GCC Toolchain.
Never really tried BSD. It will certainly be an interesting beast with the LLVM tool chain but honestly I'd probably wait for FreeBSD 11 or at least a few months of bug fixes to take place. The important thing is for BSD to free itself as much as possible from the GPL. Even then the thing that causes me to keep Linux around is software you can't find anywhere else. I'd love to see a realtime extension to FreeBSD.
Over half a dozen? So, seven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
[...] 95% of users will never need or want to replace their batteries.
Why do people always assume that because THEY don't see a need, no one ELSE does?
The fact that people buy Macs with glued-in batteries does not automatically mean they don't care, it means they don't have any CHOICE. If you want a laptop running OS X, you can't have a removable battery. Some people suck it up and live with it, others, for whom enduring battery power is important, undoubtedly choose something other than a Mac.
My wife used to use her old MacBook Pro in the field all day. When one battery died she'd swap it out and I'd run it back to home base to recharge. Between her two and the one in my machine she was able to stay out there for as long as I was willing to run them back and forth. That's something we just plain can't do with the unibody.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla
My nearly four year old MBP has a battery health of 87%. I'll have a Retina MBP long before my battery fails.
So when you get a new computer, the old one will go in the recycling bin, right?
No? You'll SELL it you say.
So, the battery won't be a problem... FOR YOU. You can just offload that particular inconvenience to the NEXT user!
(Lest I come across as being an evangelist for removable batteries, I actually don't really care that much since mine is almost always plugged in to mains power anyway, but some of the arguments in defence of Apple's choices are amusing!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinisto
I have never --repeat, never-- replaced a laptop battery in my life
...because you just buy a new computer instead. I presume that when your tires wear out you just buy a new car?
We recently replaced my wife's first Mac, which we purchased in 2007. When we retired it after five-and-a-half years it was on its third battery. We have two duds that will no longer take a charge. We got about two years out of each one. Replacing the computer on that timetable would have be substantially more expensive than just buying new batteries. I guess we can still pay someone to replace the internal battery, but I can't imagine that will be as easy or inexpensive as just grabbing a new battery off the shelf.
Besides, we also used multiple batteries to extend the time we could be away from mains power. You can't do that with a fixed battery.
There are benefits to the glued-in battery, but it's not without certain sacrifices.
I found the removable batteries used to last a lot less than the sealed ones. They had a rated 5 hour battery life vs 7. There are also external battery options, this one's quite expensive:
http://www.hypershop.com/HyperJuice-External-Battery-for-MacBook-iPad-iPhone-USB-s/91.htm
If you used one of those for 7 hours first, then went to the internal for 7 hours and charged the pack and used it for 7 hours, you'd get 21 hour straight usage.
It's true that a second-hand machine could mean getting a new battery from Apple but that's a risk in buying an older machine. Apple's prices are here:
http://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=servicefaq&product=Macnotebooks
It's $129 for cMBP, $179 for 17" cMBP, $199 for rMBP. It would be nice if the rMBP was $129 too as that's not a huge expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
it still adds to the cost and makes other compromises to the machine (how do you have a user replaceable battery in a unibody design) when the battery should already last about 3 years if you drain it and charge it every single day.
I've never had to replace a battery on a unibody MacBook and we've had over a half dozen of them.
And by compromises and cost you surely must mean a normal screw type versus a tri wing screw used in the unibody.
PS. Batteries NEVER fail...which is why Apple has ONLY a 1 year warranty.
Get a grip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
Over half a dozen? So, seven?
LMAO. And those 7 also have the Apple life time battery warranty....which lasts 365 days.
There was more involved in that improvement than just the battery, but there's truth to what you say. Once again, people don't realize the tradeoffs that are involved. A removable battery requires more materials - both in the battery and in the support structure. It is a component that can become loose and cause problems. It takes up extra space which makes the system larger - and reduces the amount of available battery capacity.
Just like with soldered RAM, an integral, non-replaceable battery is the most robust way to do it and will offer the greatest long term reliability. Yes, when you need to replace a battery, it takes a little more time, but it's not an enormous amount of time. Apple has chosen to trade reliability and bulk reduction and higher capacity for a slightly more expensive battery swap. I don't think that's a bad tradeoff.
And if you do need to go more than 7 hours (or whatever your model is) away from a power outlet, get an external battery pack. No less convenient than a replaceable battery.
True, having to go without your laptop for a few days once every 3 or 4 years can be inconvenient but I think you could manage.
Intel does seem to over promise with their new chips. I wounded if they will still use the TIM or go back to the flux solder used in the Sandy chips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
[...] There are also external battery options, this one's quite expensive:
http://www.hypershop.com/HyperJuice-External-Battery-for-MacBook-iPad-iPhone-USB-s/91.htm
Not as convenient as an internal battery and you're right, more expensive, but it's nice to have the option. In some circumstances the need will justify the cost and slight hassle. The ability to charge it from the car battery is really handy too. I've always wondered why Apple doesn't provide a cig lighter power adaptor. I'm sure there's a reason, I just can't imagine what it might be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
[...] It's $129 for cMBP, $179 for 17" cMBP, $199 for rMBP. It would be nice if the rMBP was $129 too as that's not a huge expense.
That's actually better than I was imagining. Anything around a buck and a half is pretty easy to swallow. $200 for the Retina is right on the threshold of pain though.