**I** am not accusing any one of anything! I guess that must be my communication skills! I did say I took all of that with a grain of salt. But never-the-less, it is factual that people are saying and believe these things. I've been around long enough to know that companies actually have people that try to confuse others with outright lies and innuendo. Have you never heard of "let the buyer beware". And I'm not just talking about computers… We could just as well be talking about politics. Maybe you don't care, maybe I'm hoping for too much; but, I'm just passing it on because this seems to be such a closed forum and there seems to be this attitude that Apple can do no wrong. But, "along with the sunshine, there has to be some rain sometimes". If you don't want to hear it -- I'm sorry -- ignore me.
You may not be coming off well due to the way you say Apple is lying about thier Mac Pro plans. This new machine is Apples way forward for a solution for pro users. Like all new products in the marketplace it will take some time for the market to judge its success. I do believe initial sales will be strong though.
Do you think Apple's intentions are completely altruistic?
Not at all. What I believe is this, Apple has worked long and hard in this design with the intention of shaking up the marketplace. It is a design that reflects what will be needed to support future hardware for what is likely a decade. You need to realize that even so called workstation processors will soon be largely System On Chips.
Even now I'm not all that thrilled that there is no PCI Express slot in the machine. However I don't think it really matters for the vast majority if users. As for workstation users that really need those slots, why do they seem to think that every product they own needs to be made by Apple? I don't buy all my analytical equipment from Agilent, but try to fit the instrument to the job at hand.
I too have been around for many years. In fact, I may just retire soon and not try to fight about what needs to be done to stay on an OS X path. I'm getting tired of the endless upgrade merry-go-round. But, it is not new ideas that I have a problem with -- if they truly are a step forward. I'm just not convinced that this really a giant step forward as you seem to believe (for the reasons I've posted earlier). I too know about the physics behind how the hardware works. I could post my resume, but I doubt even that would make a difference -- probably just bore you anyway :-)
Honestly over the long term I wold think that these new Macs would make your upgrade path smoother. It certainly won't be easy for the first year or two but no transitions ever are. If you think about it this isn't unlike how some server installations are done. A one U computational box ends up tied to one or more disk array boxes or some sort of device on a network. The Mac Pro is thus a unit of computational power and little else. I honestly think that is the thought that upsets so many.
Yes, I was around when the Lisa came out and the Next cube as well. They were also purported to be "the future of computing". I can still remember what happened too. Although at least the tech from the Next cube was integrated into Apple. We would not have OS X otherwise. I didn't hear a lot of "unjustified" negativity or any other rampant negativity back then over the Macintosh. I "personally" wanted one, but corporate American might have been a different story -- and I was younger and less experienced then.
I've never understood corporate IT mentality. I can remember a vision systems engineer struggling with an IT minion to order a suitable PC to run the vision processing software on. At the time it had to be a faster version than the "approved" hardware. Eventually the department had to go over the head of the individual stuffing up the works.
BTW it is phrases like "<span style="background-color:rgb(241,241,241);">unjustified negativity</span>
" that bother me. From my point of view (and for many other highly trained and technical individuals) all of the negativity is anything but unjustified. I'm sorry if you don't see that.
I DO agree.
As far as negativity goes, I've seen it all before. Even the original Macs drew criticism due to the serial ports for I/O. In my view the complaint where not justified due to the mass of other hardware available at the time. If the Mac (talking the original here) wasn't up to the task you had at hand then it obviously wasn't the machine for you.. If it isn't the machine for you then why criticize it?
Frankly I'm an original Mac Plus owner and kept that machine longer than any other I've owned. The reality is the technology changes so fast that you seldom have good ways to reuse old. After the Mac Plus grew to be unbearably slow I owned a bunch of PC compatibles, little of that hardware was rationally transferable to the next machine. In the end buy it wear it out and buy new again.
As for workstation users that really need those slots, why do they seem to think that every product they own needs to be made by Apple?
They don't but they aren't going to buy Mac Pros if they transition half their machines to Windows based workstations. Why would they if the windows workstations are cheaper and faster and they just migrated away from Mac only tool chains? Shops that moved away from FCPX to Premiere Pro or Avid no longer have a compelling reason to be on OSX except that the OS is more user friendly than Windows. Depending on product and development cycle the Mac version may perform faster or slower than the Windows version but mostly this will average out.
The biggest determination will be cost and flexibility. Replacing a horde of expensive PCIe cards with expensive thunderbolt equivalents or needing to add a $1000 external chassis is likely to tip the favor toward windows.
Frankly I'm an original Mac Plus owner and kept that machine longer than any other I've owned. The reality is the technology changes so fast that you seldom have good ways to reuse old. After the Mac Plus grew to be unbearably slow I owned a bunch of PC compatibles, little of that hardware was rationally transferable to the next machine. In the end buy it wear it out and buy new again.
Interesting. My Mac Plus (bought in 1986) still functions. I didn't retire it until around 1992 or so. I would have stayed with a Mac, but Apple had pretty much lost the business software market by then and so I had to migrate over to the Wonderful World of Winders.
But to the OP's question: What would you rather have?
Unless something radically changes in the next few years (I go bankrupt, die or get married... all bad things), the "new" Mac Pro will be my next computer. That's what I would rather have. But I plan on this iMac lasting for several more years. So by then, who knows what we'll have to choose from?
Interesting. My Mac Plus (bought in 1986) still functions. I didn't retire it until around 1992 or so. I would have stayed with a Mac, but Apple had pretty much lost the business software market by then and so I had to migrate over to the Wonderful World of Winders.
Amazing how far we have come. Back then I was taking engineering related classes and literally had the Mac run all night to solve a problem that I screwed up the direct equation on. Today that probably would be done in minutes of course I would hope to avoid the math error in the first place.
As for the original Mac Plus that was a terribly underpowered machine, it was unfortunate that non of the projects at Apple to update it got anywhere.
By the way I'm really disappointed with myself in every getting rid of that Mac Plus.
But to the OP's question: What would you rather have?
That is a tough question to ask. I voted for the new Mac Pro and would likely go that route if the price is right.
Unless something radically changes in the next few years (I go bankrupt, die or get married... all bad things), the "new" Mac Pro will be my next computer. That's what I would rather have. But I plan on this iMac lasting for several more years. So by then, who knows what we'll have to choose from?
That is the thing buy for the here and now because technology in this respect changes rapidly. In five years time that little Mac Pro tube could be packing an amazing array of processors, or it could morph into something very different.
It seems to me that alot of you guys need to clear your old desks and reset your goals for the future before you get left behind with the pc box vendors, you sound like your stuck with outmoded gear and afraid of change maybe its cost or attachment or more likely uncertainty, but change is here its called solid state it works well and its taking over displacing the old ways, all aboard!
Personally the new macpro design took even me by surprise but wow hook up any TB ssd nas or array and that's a pretty nifty mean 4K studio edit machine that'll defy any personal workstation use, I hope they get the new 1.5TB PCI cards ready for next year too and then I'll be really impressed,
But I'll also, as I guess so will most folk, be equally impressed if the next iMac Haswell upgrade is also totally solid PCI state with a super retina display that can equally use any thunderbolt nas array, you can be sure of one thing someone is designing everything necessary as we write, time to garage-sale clear the clutter.
At the end of the day its the way of our clouded future like it or not, think positive, all aboard?
Those are some weird assumptions. For example Apple doesn't market an SSD NAS, nor does any other company. You can always populate one that way, but in the case of TB 1, you could fully saturate an 8 bay using HDDs. If SSDs become cheap enough to be a better solution there, then I would consider it. As it is, we may just see something like an NAND cache as part of the HDD. It depends what percentage of users retain their use in some form. Do not expect backup solutions to go that way soon. It doesn't really offer anything. It doesn't even guarantee improved reliability.
Comments
Even now I'm not all that thrilled that there is no PCI Express slot in the machine. However I don't think it really matters for the vast majority if users. As for workstation users that really need those slots, why do they seem to think that every product they own needs to be made by Apple? I don't buy all my analytical equipment from Agilent, but try to fit the instrument to the job at hand. Honestly over the long term I wold think that these new Macs would make your upgrade path smoother. It certainly won't be easy for the first year or two but no transitions ever are. If you think about it this isn't unlike how some server installations are done. A one U computational box ends up tied to one or more disk array boxes or some sort of device on a network. The Mac Pro is thus a unit of computational power and little else. I honestly think that is the thought that upsets so many. I've never understood corporate IT mentality. I can remember a vision systems engineer struggling with an IT minion to order a suitable PC to run the vision processing software on. At the time it had to be a faster version than the "approved" hardware. Eventually the department had to go over the head of the individual stuffing up the works. As far as negativity goes, I've seen it all before. Even the original Macs drew criticism due to the serial ports for I/O. In my view the complaint where not justified due to the mass of other hardware available at the time. If the Mac (talking the original here) wasn't up to the task you had at hand then it obviously wasn't the machine for you.. If it isn't the machine for you then why criticize it?
Frankly I'm an original Mac Plus owner and kept that machine longer than any other I've owned. The reality is the technology changes so fast that you seldom have good ways to reuse old. After the Mac Plus grew to be unbearably slow I owned a bunch of PC compatibles, little of that hardware was rationally transferable to the next machine. In the end buy it wear it out and buy new again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
As for workstation users that really need those slots, why do they seem to think that every product they own needs to be made by Apple?
They don't but they aren't going to buy Mac Pros if they transition half their machines to Windows based workstations. Why would they if the windows workstations are cheaper and faster and they just migrated away from Mac only tool chains? Shops that moved away from FCPX to Premiere Pro or Avid no longer have a compelling reason to be on OSX except that the OS is more user friendly than Windows. Depending on product and development cycle the Mac version may perform faster or slower than the Windows version but mostly this will average out.
The biggest determination will be cost and flexibility. Replacing a horde of expensive PCIe cards with expensive thunderbolt equivalents or needing to add a $1000 external chassis is likely to tip the favor toward windows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Frankly I'm an original Mac Plus owner and kept that machine longer than any other I've owned. The reality is the technology changes so fast that you seldom have good ways to reuse old. After the Mac Plus grew to be unbearably slow I owned a bunch of PC compatibles, little of that hardware was rationally transferable to the next machine. In the end buy it wear it out and buy new again.
Interesting. My Mac Plus (bought in 1986) still functions. I didn't retire it until around 1992 or so. I would have stayed with a Mac, but Apple had pretty much lost the business software market by then and so I had to migrate over to the Wonderful World of Winders.
But to the OP's question: What would you rather have?
Unless something radically changes in the next few years (I go bankrupt, die or get married... all bad things), the "new" Mac Pro will be my next computer. That's what I would rather have. But I plan on this iMac lasting for several more years. So by then, who knows what we'll have to choose from?
As for the original Mac Plus that was a terribly underpowered machine, it was unfortunate that non of the projects at Apple to update it got anywhere.
By the way I'm really disappointed with myself in every getting rid of that Mac Plus. That is a tough question to ask. I voted for the new Mac Pro and would likely go that route if the price is right.
That is the thing buy for the here and now because technology in this respect changes rapidly. In five years time that little Mac Pro tube could be packing an amazing array of processors, or it could morph into something very different.
It seems to me that alot of you guys need to clear your old desks and reset your goals for the future before you get left behind with the pc box vendors, you sound like your stuck with outmoded gear and afraid of change maybe its cost or attachment or more likely uncertainty, but change is here its called solid state it works well and its taking over displacing the old ways, all aboard!
Personally the new macpro design took even me by surprise but wow hook up any TB ssd nas or array and that's a pretty nifty mean 4K studio edit machine that'll defy any personal workstation use, I hope they get the new 1.5TB PCI cards ready for next year too and then I'll be really impressed,
But I'll also, as I guess so will most folk, be equally impressed if the next iMac Haswell upgrade is also totally solid PCI state with a super retina display that can equally use any thunderbolt nas array, you can be sure of one thing someone is designing everything necessary as we write, time to garage-sale clear the clutter.
At the end of the day its the way of our clouded future like it or not, think positive, all aboard?
Those are some weird assumptions. For example Apple doesn't market an SSD NAS, nor does any other company. You can always populate one that way, but in the case of TB 1, you could fully saturate an 8 bay using HDDs. If SSDs become cheap enough to be a better solution there, then I would consider it. As it is, we may just see something like an NAND cache as part of the HDD. It depends what percentage of users retain their use in some form. Do not expect backup solutions to go that way soon. It doesn't really offer anything. It doesn't even guarantee improved reliability.
When Mac Pro update in 2013