Now paying no taxes LEGALLY is "sociopathic"? Get bent.
Taking measures to reduce your tax bill might be passable as healthy self-interest. Paying no tax at all verges on the callous. Sociapathy seems an extreme description on the surface, but I can see where he's coming from.
Sorry to say, but there is absolutely nothing surprising, new or noteworthy about this. Apple won't pay any corporate tax in the UK next year, either. And neither will any other multinational company that is based in Ireland or any other EU member state for that matter.
Obviously there are taxes involved in Apple's operations, however since their sales and profits are not subject to any entity incorporated in the UK, no corporate tax is due.
If people seriously complain about this, they should amend EU laws, instead of pounding on any company. Seriously, as long as companies can practice this way, they will. They'd be insane if they didn't.
Title of article should read. "UK faces scrutiny after major worldwide corporations pay no 2012 corporate income tax due to UK tax laws." Another title could have read "Apple commended for protecting shareholder value while paying all required corporate taxes"
I think you're mistaking "fully approved by the government" with "complex accounting practices that the government is actively trying to shut down".
And just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's right. Paying no tax is sociopathic behaviour. If everyone did the same, society would collapse. And the more tax that the world's most profitable company doesn't pay, the more the rest of us pay.
Google, Amazon, Starbucks et al are no better.
If it legal than it is right and everyone does the same. Show what nations people pay taxes they aren't legally obligated to pay.
They are actually. Google, Amazon and Starbucks have all been hauled in front of parliamentary committees recently over this exact same issue, so this isn't picking on Apple.
The issue is the Irish tax setup. The Irish government says corporations incorporated in Ireland pay tax on where they're managed and controlled from (for Apple, this is the U.S.) but US rules (and most other major economies) say the tax should be paid where the company is incorporated. If Ireland got in line with everyone else, a lot of this would go away.
Ok, so accepting your second paragraph, Apple did nothing wrong and the UK investigators should not have gone into Apple's HQ. So it is 'picking on Apple'. Perhaps they should have gone to Ireland instead? Meanwhile we have quite a few States in the US that offer special incentives to business. It seems to be a pretty normal state of affairs (no pun intended). Why should Ireland 'get in line' if it suits them not to and is legal? Isn't that called a free market?
I understood VAT precisely. Nothing you said contradicts my point. The VAT is a tax on Apple's business. Who "pays" is one of those shell games that pro-tax people like to pay -- They pretend that the employer pays for your social security here in the US, which is silly, becuase you're salary is lower in order to cover that tax, so you're really paying. Same thing with VAT.... Apple's sales are lower as a result of machines being higher cost due to VAT. Apple and the consumer both suffer. (as is the same case with social security- the employer and the employee both suffer.)
Who pays games are silly evasions to avoid the fact that this theft hurts the economy and hurts the people.
Saying that VAT is a tax on Apple's business, and then likening that to Apple's not paying *corporate* tax on their profit (which is the entire point of this article, but your VAT argument was a nice red herring), one could say is the same as saying that Apple pays logistics companies to deliver their goods who pay tax on the revenue they earn from Apple, and therefore you stupid pro-tax people should just shut up, Apple has "paid" tax on its business, therefore, Grover Norquist is God. ;-)
This article is just plain silly, it demonises Apple for following the rules, along with all the other companies who do the same thing, just as individuals do the same thing (try and minimise their tax bills). If you have a problem with their not paying, tell your politician to change the rules, or vote for someone else. Since when did following the rules become such a bad thing?
Apple may once again come under the spotlight over taxes, as the iPhone maker's latest filings reveal that it paid no corporate taxes in the United Kingdom last year, despite having pulled in billions of dollars from its European operations.
What a weird phrasing. Apple UK is only one of Apple's subsidiaries; every European country has its own. This phrasing makes it seem like the billions of operation income across Europe comes to the UK and then flow to Ireland. This is not the case. Each subsidiary gets the money made in each individual country, and has to adhere to each country's tax system. Then the money flows to the Ireland Holding; so to keep the money in one place. Apple pays taxes where the law stipulates and does nothing illegal.
However, Apple does have real sales operations for its online store based in Cork Ireland. All online sales across Europe operate from Ireland. So if you buy your Mac online, you officially buy something in Ireland. Same for iTunes and App store, I believe. And Apple adheres to Ireland tax laws for all these sales.
Ok, so accepting your second paragraph, Apple did nothing wrong and the UK investigators should not have gone into Apple's HQ. So it is 'picking on Apple'. Perhaps they should have gone to Ireland instead? Meanwhile we have quite a few States in the US that offer special incentives to business. It seems to be a pretty normal state of affairs (no pun intended). Why should Ireland 'get in line' if it suits them not to and is legal? Isn't that called a free market?
Where does it say UK investigators went into Apple HQ? I think you might have this confused with the French raid article. This info is all from Apple's filings.
And no, its not picking on Apple. Far from it. It seems all countries are having the same issue at the moment, the companies are however complying with the law. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a global agreement on this otherwise the richest companies in the world will continue to pay almost zero tax on their profits (which, again, I'm no criticising them for as it is their duty to maximise their value).
Saying that VAT is a tax on Apple's business, and then likening that to Apple's not paying *corporate* tax on their profit (which is the entire point of this article, but your VAT argument was a nice red herring), one could say is the same as saying that Apple pays logistics companies to deliver their goods who pay tax on the revenue they earn from Apple, and therefore you stupid pro-tax people should just shut up, Apple has "paid" tax on its business, therefore, Grover Norquist is God. ;-)
This article is just plain silly, it demonises Apple for following the rules, along with all the other companies who do the same thing, just as individuals do the same thing (try and minimise their tax bills). If you have a problem with their not paying, tell your politician to change the rules, or vote for someone else. Since when did following the rules become such a bad thing?
I completely agree with this.
Additionally, I'd like to add that all of this bad press and exposure Apple is getting is simply for Apple's big name and huge profits. There is absolutely nothing new here. In fact this doesn't only apply to the EU but to every place with double taxation agreements.
If an EU iOS developer sells a hundred million copies of some app with a nice price tag to US customers, no corporate tax or income tax whatsoever is due. The entity/developer is taxed where it is based.
I really don't get all this outrage. Sounds as if someone just wants a piece of the cake.
What a weird phrasing. Apple UK is only one of Apple's subsidiaries; every European country has its own.
Or they don't. Because the laws in said country don't require it. Nor do those laws require Apple to pay corporate taxes in said country even without an office.
Which is rather the point. If the laws don't require it then Apple has done nothing illegal. Show where there is a law and proof that they have broken said law and then there is cause to demonize the company.
But don't paint them as villains for following laws that let them take deductions etc.
I think you're mistaking "fully approved by the government" with "complex accounting practices that the government is actively trying to shut down".
And just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's right. Paying no tax is sociopathic behaviour. If everyone did the same, society would collapse. And the more tax that the world's most profitable company doesn't pay, the more the rest of us pay.
If it legal than it is right and everyone does the same. Show what nations people pay taxes they aren't legally obligated to pay.
I'm not arguing as to whether it's right or not, but conflating "legal" and "right" would put you on very shaky ground indeed. Slavery was once legal in the U.S., but it was never right. Beating your wife is legal in some countries, but it's not right. The idea that legality equals morality is absurdly mistaken.
I think you're mistaking "fully approved by the government" with "complex accounting practices that the government is actively trying to shut down".
And just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's right. Paying no tax is sociopathic behaviour. If everyone did the same, society would collapse. And the more tax that the world's most profitable company doesn't pay, the more the rest of us pay.
Google, Amazon, Starbucks et al are no better.
In the U.S. there are lots of individuals who pay no taxes at all. Not only do they not pay any taxes, they get a check back from the government because they paid no taxes. It's called the earned income tax credit, all in the name of "fairness" of course. So are these individuals exhibiting sociopathic behavior too? Even though they make very little money shouldn't they pay their fair share too, even if they don't have to?
I personally will take every legal deduction, use every legal loophole, delay payment as long as possible, to avoid paying one red cent more than I absolutely have to. If I could find a way to pay no taxes at all I would jump on it. If that makes me a sociopath then so be it. I'm proud to be on your evil list.
This debate is the classic battle between individualism and the hive mentality. The individualists cross over the mountain top and find new land. Then the hive shows up with its "community" mindset and screws it all up.
I think you're mistaking "fully approved by the government" with "complex accounting practices that the government is actively trying to shut down".
And just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's right. Paying no tax is sociopathic behaviour. If everyone did the same, society would collapse. And the more tax that the world's most profitable company doesn't pay, the more the rest of us pay.
Google, Amazon, Starbucks et al are no better.
Dear UK,
You wrote the bloody laws in the first place. Write better laws.
Not paying taxes by illegal means is sociopathic. Doing everything legally to minimize your taxes is smart.
Taxes are theft. This is indisputable objective reality.
No. Taxes are the main way that governments raise money to provide things for a country's citizens - the NHS Health Service, Education, roads maintenance, disability benefits, libraries, refuse collection, and ..., and ...
The rate of taxes and their type are certainly subjects ripe for debate but your bald and ill-informed statement is simply wrong.
Waiting for the liberal freetards to come out of the woodwork and whine about Apple (but not Google, Microsoft, Intel, etc..) not paying any taxes that they legally did not have to pay, and fully approved by the government in which the brouhaha is occurring.
Why preemptively attack people who have different political beliefs? Don't you care how this reflects on your character ?
In the U.S. there are lots of individuals who pay no taxes at all. Not only do they not pay any taxes, they get a check back from the government because they paid no taxes. It's called the earned income tax credit, all in the name of "fairness" of course. So are these individuals exhibiting sociopathic behavior too? Even though they make very little money shouldn't they pay their fair share too, even if they don't have to?
I personally will take every legal deduction, use every legal loophole, delay payment as long as possible, to avoid paying one red cent more than I absolutely have to. If I could find a way to pay no taxes at all I would jump on it. If that makes me a sociopath then so be it. I'm proud to be on your evil list.
This debate is the classic battle between individualism and the hive mentality. The individualists cross over the mountain top and find new land. Then the hive shows up with its "community" mindset and screws it all up.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Now paying no taxes LEGALLY is "sociopathic"? Get bent.
Taking measures to reduce your tax bill might be passable as healthy self-interest. Paying no tax at all verges on the callous. Sociapathy seems an extreme description on the surface, but I can see where he's coming from.
Welcome to the EU. ;-)
Sorry to say, but there is absolutely nothing surprising, new or noteworthy about this. Apple won't pay any corporate tax in the UK next year, either. And neither will any other multinational company that is based in Ireland or any other EU member state for that matter.
Obviously there are taxes involved in Apple's operations, however since their sales and profits are not subject to any entity incorporated in the UK, no corporate tax is due.
If people seriously complain about this, they should amend EU laws, instead of pounding on any company. Seriously, as long as companies can practice this way, they will. They'd be insane if they didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Now paying no taxes LEGALLY is "sociopathic"? Get bent.
I heard that it's racist too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL
I think you're mistaking "fully approved by the government" with "complex accounting practices that the government is actively trying to shut down".
And just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's right. Paying no tax is sociopathic behaviour. If everyone did the same, society would collapse. And the more tax that the world's most profitable company doesn't pay, the more the rest of us pay.
Google, Amazon, Starbucks et al are no better.
If it legal than it is right and everyone does the same. Show what nations people pay taxes they aren't legally obligated to pay.
Ok, so accepting your second paragraph, Apple did nothing wrong and the UK investigators should not have gone into Apple's HQ. So it is 'picking on Apple'. Perhaps they should have gone to Ireland instead? Meanwhile we have quite a few States in the US that offer special incentives to business. It seems to be a pretty normal state of affairs (no pun intended). Why should Ireland 'get in line' if it suits them not to and is legal? Isn't that called a free market?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi
I understood VAT precisely. Nothing you said contradicts my point. The VAT is a tax on Apple's business. Who "pays" is one of those shell games that pro-tax people like to pay -- They pretend that the employer pays for your social security here in the US, which is silly, becuase you're salary is lower in order to cover that tax, so you're really paying. Same thing with VAT.... Apple's sales are lower as a result of machines being higher cost due to VAT. Apple and the consumer both suffer. (as is the same case with social security- the employer and the employee both suffer.)
Who pays games are silly evasions to avoid the fact that this theft hurts the economy and hurts the people.
Saying that VAT is a tax on Apple's business, and then likening that to Apple's not paying *corporate* tax on their profit (which is the entire point of this article, but your VAT argument was a nice red herring), one could say is the same as saying that Apple pays logistics companies to deliver their goods who pay tax on the revenue they earn from Apple, and therefore you stupid pro-tax people should just shut up, Apple has "paid" tax on its business, therefore, Grover Norquist is God. ;-)
This article is just plain silly, it demonises Apple for following the rules, along with all the other companies who do the same thing, just as individuals do the same thing (try and minimise their tax bills). If you have a problem with their not paying, tell your politician to change the rules, or vote for someone else. Since when did following the rules become such a bad thing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
Apple may once again come under the spotlight over taxes, as the iPhone maker's latest filings reveal that it paid no corporate taxes in the United Kingdom last year, despite having pulled in billions of dollars from its European operations.
What a weird phrasing. Apple UK is only one of Apple's subsidiaries; every European country has its own. This phrasing makes it seem like the billions of operation income across Europe comes to the UK and then flow to Ireland. This is not the case. Each subsidiary gets the money made in each individual country, and has to adhere to each country's tax system. Then the money flows to the Ireland Holding; so to keep the money in one place. Apple pays taxes where the law stipulates and does nothing illegal.
However, Apple does have real sales operations for its online store based in Cork Ireland. All online sales across Europe operate from Ireland. So if you buy your Mac online, you officially buy something in Ireland. Same for iTunes and App store, I believe. And Apple adheres to Ireland tax laws for all these sales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
Ok, so accepting your second paragraph, Apple did nothing wrong and the UK investigators should not have gone into Apple's HQ. So it is 'picking on Apple'. Perhaps they should have gone to Ireland instead? Meanwhile we have quite a few States in the US that offer special incentives to business. It seems to be a pretty normal state of affairs (no pun intended). Why should Ireland 'get in line' if it suits them not to and is legal? Isn't that called a free market?
Where does it say UK investigators went into Apple HQ? I think you might have this confused with the French raid article. This info is all from Apple's filings.
And no, its not picking on Apple. Far from it. It seems all countries are having the same issue at the moment, the companies are however complying with the law. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a global agreement on this otherwise the richest companies in the world will continue to pay almost zero tax on their profits (which, again, I'm no criticising them for as it is their duty to maximise their value).
Quote:
Originally Posted by williamlondon
Saying that VAT is a tax on Apple's business, and then likening that to Apple's not paying *corporate* tax on their profit (which is the entire point of this article, but your VAT argument was a nice red herring), one could say is the same as saying that Apple pays logistics companies to deliver their goods who pay tax on the revenue they earn from Apple, and therefore you stupid pro-tax people should just shut up, Apple has "paid" tax on its business, therefore, Grover Norquist is God. ;-)
This article is just plain silly, it demonises Apple for following the rules, along with all the other companies who do the same thing, just as individuals do the same thing (try and minimise their tax bills). If you have a problem with their not paying, tell your politician to change the rules, or vote for someone else. Since when did following the rules become such a bad thing?
I completely agree with this.
Additionally, I'd like to add that all of this bad press and exposure Apple is getting is simply for Apple's big name and huge profits. There is absolutely nothing new here. In fact this doesn't only apply to the EU but to every place with double taxation agreements.
If an EU iOS developer sells a hundred million copies of some app with a nice price tag to US customers, no corporate tax or income tax whatsoever is due. The entity/developer is taxed where it is based.
I really don't get all this outrage. Sounds as if someone just wants a piece of the cake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
I hope the UK powers that be are checking into Google, Microsoft, etc. etc. etc ....
Nope. Only Apple does stuff like this. I read it on the Internet.
Or they don't. Because the laws in said country don't require it. Nor do those laws require Apple to pay corporate taxes in said country even without an office.
Which is rather the point. If the laws don't require it then Apple has done nothing illegal. Show where there is a law and proof that they have broken said law and then there is cause to demonize the company.
But don't paint them as villains for following laws that let them take deductions etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL
I think you're mistaking "fully approved by the government" with "complex accounting practices that the government is actively trying to shut down".
And just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's right. Paying no tax is sociopathic behaviour. If everyone did the same, society would collapse. And the more tax that the world's most profitable company doesn't pay, the more the rest of us pay.
Google, Amazon, Starbucks et al are no better.
So you maximize your tax burden every year?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic
If it legal than it is right and everyone does the same. Show what nations people pay taxes they aren't legally obligated to pay.
I'm not arguing as to whether it's right or not, but conflating "legal" and "right" would put you on very shaky ground indeed. Slavery was once legal in the U.S., but it was never right. Beating your wife is legal in some countries, but it's not right. The idea that legality equals morality is absurdly mistaken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL
There doesn't seem to be much correlation between living standards and taxes. Norway (high tax) ranked above the US. However, if you look at happiness, high tax countries dominate the top 10. There's an even stronger bias towards high tax once you look at education or health.
You are free to send in an extra 30% every year if that makes you feel happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL
I think you're mistaking "fully approved by the government" with "complex accounting practices that the government is actively trying to shut down".
And just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's right. Paying no tax is sociopathic behaviour. If everyone did the same, society would collapse. And the more tax that the world's most profitable company doesn't pay, the more the rest of us pay.
Google, Amazon, Starbucks et al are no better.
In the U.S. there are lots of individuals who pay no taxes at all. Not only do they not pay any taxes, they get a check back from the government because they paid no taxes. It's called the earned income tax credit, all in the name of "fairness" of course. So are these individuals exhibiting sociopathic behavior too? Even though they make very little money shouldn't they pay their fair share too, even if they don't have to?
I personally will take every legal deduction, use every legal loophole, delay payment as long as possible, to avoid paying one red cent more than I absolutely have to. If I could find a way to pay no taxes at all I would jump on it. If that makes me a sociopath then so be it. I'm proud to be on your evil list.
This debate is the classic battle between individualism and the hive mentality. The individualists cross over the mountain top and find new land. Then the hive shows up with its "community" mindset and screws it all up.
Dear UK,
You wrote the bloody laws in the first place. Write better laws.
Not paying taxes by illegal means is sociopathic. Doing everything legally to minimize your taxes is smart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi
Taxes are theft. This is indisputable objective reality.
No. Taxes are the main way that governments raise money to provide things for a country's citizens - the NHS Health Service, Education, roads maintenance, disability benefits, libraries, refuse collection, and ..., and ...
The rate of taxes and their type are certainly subjects ripe for debate but your bald and ill-informed statement is simply wrong.
This is indisputable objective reality.
Why preemptively attack people who have different political beliefs? Don't you care how this reflects on your character ?