Another advantage of LM not mentioned here yet - RF transparency! Which from what I understand is possible due to the metal's amorphous structure. If correct that means iPhone's, iPad's, Macs etc...would no longer need plastic or glass RF windows for wireless anymore. Imagine a future iPhone with a completely seamless all metal body!
Terminator 2, T-1000 (Liquid Metal, you know because of this threads topic) was sent to kill John Connor, not Sarah Connor, that was part 1. Saaaaafffffffeeeee
I've spent years manufacturing parts from metal. I know exactly what's important in a metal product and a stamped LM case would be every bit as valuable as an injection molded one. The process depends on the specifics of what you're trying to make. For an iPhone case, stamping is probably every bit as good as injection molding - and is far easier in many respects.
Y'know, if you had just left out that first sentence, that post would...
Liquid metal's advantages stem from the fact that it's amorphous rather than crystalline. That gives it a number of very useful advantages:
- Less brittle
- Less prone to work hardening
- More resilient
- Less corrosion
- Stronger (due to lack of stress concentration sites).
All of those advantages apply to stamped parts every bit as much as machined parts. In fact, some of them ONLY apply to stamped parts (such as the work hardening advantage).
Technically yeah, but you left out the fact that one of it's main features is the fact that it doesn't shrink when it cools, so forging processes are definitely favoured in almost all cases.
Also, the stuff is so hard, that to make a sheet or block of it and then mill out the shape as they currently do with aluminium would be a kind of dumbass and much more expensive thing to do. They would need harder bits, and the bits wouldn't last as long. I don't think you'll ever see them making blocks of it and milling it like aluminium.
Yes, I wonder why Apple hasn't bought the company outright.
I'm guessing here but it may be because the technology still needed a lot of R&D. If Apple bought the company then it may have been too focused on developing for their own use which may only be a tiny fraction of the larger market for LM. Apple would be faced with going into another business that's totally outside of its core, or remaining a smaller and more focused company that has exclusive use of the technology in the businesses it has. Meanwhile additional opportunities for other industries can fund R&D of LM overall.
Terminator 2, T-1000 (Liquid Metal, you know because of this threads topic) was sent to kill John Connor, not Sarah Connor, that was part 1. Saaaaafffffffeeeee
I was disappointed that he never referenced his movies when he ran for governor. It would have been funny if he said "vote for me if you want to live" or "get to the polls".
Another advantage of LM not mentioned here yet - RF transparency! Which from what I understand is possible due to the metal's amorphous structure. If correct that means iPhone's, iPad's, Macs etc...would no longer need plastic or glass RF windows for wireless anymore. Imagine a future iPhone with a completely seamless all metal body!
That hasn't been publicly verified. There are some comments in the tech press that imply that there's radio transparency, but I haven't seen any official comments supporting that claim. Frankly, I doubt it.
Technically yeah, but you left out the fact that one of it's main features is the fact that it doesn't shrink when it cools, so forging processes are definitely favoured in almost all cases.
The choice of casting vs drawing vs stamping vs machining depends on a very large number of factors. The biggest one affecting the choice of process is the shape of the part. If a given shape is more suitable for drawing, then drawing should be used - even if low shrinkage rates are of no benefit there.
Consider, for example, the iPod classic back. It's a thin sheet of material with deep draw sides. That shape would not be particularly suitable for injection molding - whether the material shrinks or not. OTOH, consider the antennas that form the sides of the iPhone 4/5. Those shapes would work well with injection molding.
Any large, flat piece (like the back of an iPad) would make more sense for drawing or stamping.
Also, the stuff is so hard, that to make a sheet or block of it and then mill out the shape as they currently do with aluminium would be a kind of dumbass and much more expensive thing to do. They would need harder bits, and the bits wouldn't last as long. I don't think you'll ever see them making blocks of it and milling it like aluminium.
Maybe, maybe not. While it's harder than a crystalline Ti/Al alloy, that doesn't preclude machining. Existing bits are still much, much harder than even Liquidmetal materials. However, as stated above, i don't think you'll see it, either - but for different reasons.
Another advantage of LM not mentioned here yet - RF transparency! Which from what I understand is possible due to the metal's amorphous structure. If correct that means iPhone's, iPad's, Macs etc...would no longer need plastic or glass RF windows for wireless anymore. Imagine a future iPhone with a completely seamless all metal body!
RF transmission and antennas in particular are a strange beast. How well such a material would allow RF to pass through is probably dependent on many variables. It would be very nice though to be able to seal up an iPad completely to the point of being water resistant.
What I have yet to hear is of what use a thin sheet of lqmt will be to apple... I thought the point was the metal can be injection molded into complex shapes. So what do you do with a sheet of it?
Bend it, draw it, press it, crimp it. Sheet metal can be a very productive way to do mass production especially for things like the iPad which is really a silly device to CNC machine an enclosure for. Now the question we need to ask would the sheet metal be amendable to such forming - a question I can't answer honestly.
If you have never been in a manufacturing plant with high speed progressive dies it is shocking just how fast these machines can stamp out parts. in the time it takes Apple to machine one iPad back, a good press could stamp out a hundred or more backs. The new backs would require different assembly techniques but that would have happened anyways.
The only real question is how much trouble they would have maintaining appearance with a stamping process.
"Apple currently has an exclusive agreement with Liquidmetal through early 2014"
"The agreement gives Apple "a perpetual, worldwide, fully-paid, exclusive license to commercial such intellectual property in the field of electronic products in exchange for a license fee.""
I was disappointed that he never referenced his movies when he ran for governor. It would have been funny if he said "vote for me if you want to live" or "get to the polls".
Note he also hasn't (yet) said, "I'll be back." Has his wife?
Another advantage of LM not mentioned here yet - RF transparency!
No, it's not radio transparent.
The internet myth that it was, got started back in 2010 when one of the LM engineers commented that perhaps Apple could QUOTE "blend an alloy that was optimized for receiving signals." UNQUOTE ... and use it as the antenna.
A lot of people apparently misunderstood the statement, and thought he meant it was RF transparent, when actually he was stating quite the opposite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax
"Apple currently has an exclusive agreement with Liquidmetal through early 2014"
"The agreement gives Apple "a perpetual, worldwide, fully-paid, exclusive license to commercial such intellectual property in the field of electronic products in exchange for a license fee.""
Is it 2014 or perpetual?
It is a perpetual exclusive on
using LiquidMetal corporation IP created through 2014
in a consumer electronic item.
In other words, only Apple can ever make a CE device using what LM invents through 2014.
Inventions coming after 2014 will be available to anyone (assuming they don't rely on previous IP, presumably). However, Apple has already paid to extend the IP time limit once, so they might do it again.
You're right. It was a bad edit. I originally had intended it to say, "It's one of the whole points of LM", but had to leave to pick up my daughter before I could finish.
(In a previous post today on MacRumors, I did talk about the other attributes of LM, such as resistance to corrosion, scratches, and bending. Those are the reasons why Samsung used it since 2002 for phone parts, and even made an entire phone chassis out of LiquidMetal years before Apple bought up the rights.)
However, most people believe that for Apple, the main attraction is the injection molding, so that unusual shapes can be made (ones that stamping cannot do in one piece).
Are you saying that injection molding is NOT a major feature of LM?
...And all this time I thought the major feature was to have the phone bounce back up into your hand if you dropped it.
Comments
Another advantage of LM not mentioned here yet - RF transparency! Which from what I understand is possible due to the metal's amorphous structure. If correct that means iPhone's, iPad's, Macs etc...would no longer need plastic or glass RF windows for wireless anymore. Imagine a future iPhone with a completely seamless all metal body!
Terminator 2, T-1000 (Liquid Metal, you know because of this threads topic) was sent to kill John Connor, not Sarah Connor, that was part 1. Saaaaafffffffeeeee
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
In this case, your HO is useless.
I've spent years manufacturing parts from metal. I know exactly what's important in a metal product and a stamped LM case would be every bit as valuable as an injection molded one. The process depends on the specifics of what you're trying to make. For an iPhone case, stamping is probably every bit as good as injection molding - and is far easier in many respects.
Y'know, if you had just left out that first sentence, that post would...
Never mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Yes, I wonder why Apple hasn't bought the company outright.
Would the present owners have to consent to a buyout? Maybe they don't want to let it go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
That's not the 'whole point' of LM at all.
Liquid metal's advantages stem from the fact that it's amorphous rather than crystalline. That gives it a number of very useful advantages:
- Less brittle
- Less prone to work hardening
- More resilient
- Less corrosion
- Stronger (due to lack of stress concentration sites).
All of those advantages apply to stamped parts every bit as much as machined parts. In fact, some of them ONLY apply to stamped parts (such as the work hardening advantage).
Technically yeah, but you left out the fact that one of it's main features is the fact that it doesn't shrink when it cools, so forging processes are definitely favoured in almost all cases.
Also, the stuff is so hard, that to make a sheet or block of it and then mill out the shape as they currently do with aluminium would be a kind of dumbass and much more expensive thing to do. They would need harder bits, and the bits wouldn't last as long. I don't think you'll ever see them making blocks of it and milling it like aluminium.
Hmmm, Apple <---- Liquid Metal ------> Swatch (Omega).
Will we see an Apple Omega cobranded iWatch?
Omega has already been using liquid metal in some of their Seamaster range of watches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Yes, I wonder why Apple hasn't bought the company outright.
I'm guessing here but it may be because the technology still needed a lot of R&D. If Apple bought the company then it may have been too focused on developing for their own use which may only be a tiny fraction of the larger market for LM. Apple would be faced with going into another business that's totally outside of its core, or remaining a smaller and more focused company that has exclusive use of the technology in the businesses it has. Meanwhile additional opportunities for other industries can fund R&D of LM overall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic
Terminator 2, T-1000 (Liquid Metal, you know because of this threads topic) was sent to kill John Connor, not Sarah Connor, that was part 1. Saaaaafffffffeeeee
I was disappointed that he never referenced his movies when he ran for governor. It would have been funny if he said "vote for me if you want to live" or "get to the polls".
That hasn't been publicly verified. There are some comments in the tech press that imply that there's radio transparency, but I haven't seen any official comments supporting that claim. Frankly, I doubt it.
The choice of casting vs drawing vs stamping vs machining depends on a very large number of factors. The biggest one affecting the choice of process is the shape of the part. If a given shape is more suitable for drawing, then drawing should be used - even if low shrinkage rates are of no benefit there.
Consider, for example, the iPod classic back. It's a thin sheet of material with deep draw sides. That shape would not be particularly suitable for injection molding - whether the material shrinks or not. OTOH, consider the antennas that form the sides of the iPhone 4/5. Those shapes would work well with injection molding.
Any large, flat piece (like the back of an iPad) would make more sense for drawing or stamping.
Maybe, maybe not. While it's harder than a crystalline Ti/Al alloy, that doesn't preclude machining. Existing bits are still much, much harder than even Liquidmetal materials. However, as stated above, i don't think you'll see it, either - but for different reasons.
Should have asked for "IGZO" as your user title.
RF transmission and antennas in particular are a strange beast. How well such a material would allow RF to pass through is probably dependent on many variables. It would be very nice though to be able to seal up an iPad completely to the point of being water resistant.
When the Mac Pro was shown in the darker (liquid metal) color, I was wishfully thinking that those rumors might finally come to fruition.
Flat / thin sheets sounds like the perfect form factor for exterior/casing on a MBP.
Bend it, draw it, press it, crimp it. Sheet metal can be a very productive way to do mass production especially for things like the iPad which is really a silly device to CNC machine an enclosure for. Now the question we need to ask would the sheet metal be amendable to such forming - a question I can't answer honestly.
If you have never been in a manufacturing plant with high speed progressive dies it is shocking just how fast these machines can stamp out parts. in the time it takes Apple to machine one iPad back, a good press could stamp out a hundred or more backs. The new backs would require different assembly techniques but that would have happened anyways.
The only real question is how much trouble they would have maintaining appearance with a stamping process.
"Apple currently has an exclusive agreement with Liquidmetal through early 2014"
"The agreement gives Apple "a perpetual, worldwide, fully-paid, exclusive license to commercial such intellectual property in the field of electronic products in exchange for a license fee.""
Is it 2014 or perpetual?
Note he also hasn't (yet) said, "I'll be back." Has his wife?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983
Another advantage of LM not mentioned here yet - RF transparency!
No, it's not radio transparent.
The internet myth that it was, got started back in 2010 when one of the LM engineers commented that perhaps Apple could QUOTE "blend an alloy that was optimized for receiving signals." UNQUOTE ... and use it as the antenna.
A lot of people apparently misunderstood the statement, and thought he meant it was RF transparent, when actually he was stating quite the opposite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax
"Apple currently has an exclusive agreement with Liquidmetal through early 2014"
"The agreement gives Apple "a perpetual, worldwide, fully-paid, exclusive license to commercial such intellectual property in the field of electronic products in exchange for a license fee.""
Is it 2014 or perpetual?
It is a perpetual exclusive on
using LiquidMetal corporation IP created through 2014
in a consumer electronic item.
In other words, only Apple can ever make a CE device using what LM invents through 2014.
Inventions coming after 2014 will be available to anyone (assuming they don't rely on previous IP, presumably). However, Apple has already paid to extend the IP time limit once, so they might do it again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
You're right. It was a bad edit. I originally had intended it to say, "It's one of the whole points of LM", but had to leave to pick up my daughter before I could finish.
(In a previous post today on MacRumors, I did talk about the other attributes of LM, such as resistance to corrosion, scratches, and bending. Those are the reasons why Samsung used it since 2002 for phone parts, and even made an entire phone chassis out of LiquidMetal years before Apple bought up the rights.)
However, most people believe that for Apple, the main attraction is the injection molding, so that unusual shapes can be made (ones that stamping cannot do in one piece).
Are you saying that injection molding is NOT a major feature of LM?
...And all this time I thought the major feature was to have the phone bounce back up into your hand if you dropped it.
Exactly! I wonder if this means Apple will bring back the 'bounce' option in Mail?