Quartz Extreme: what does this mean for iBooks?

135

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  • Reply 41 of 81
    eddivelyeddively Posts: 74member
    Mac Voyer-



    I can see your dissapointment. But I do contest two things with your argument..



    A-You disagree that you will get what you pay for.

    However, I agree. This, even furthers the seperation between the CONSUMER and PROSUMER (read, ibook, and tibook) models. Do you REALLY think that prosumers are really going to get a G3 (atleast in this stage of its life..no ddr and no SIMD unit), and a graphic card with 8MBs? I think you are looking at an ibook, but expecting a tibook



    B-Yes you can upgrade Generic PCs, but you are still entirely limited in a laptop. and..next to no decent upgrades cost 50 bucks, unless for some reason..and somehow, you found a PC Card sound card, and your laptop didn't come with one.

    RAM is an exception, but macs can do that to..but with price fluxes, it might be over 50.
  • Reply 42 of 81
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    "Since my name is David, I'll cut you some slack too."



    Ditto



    "Look at Aquatik's post before mine to see what is meant by crippleware. I didn't invent the term. I was simply repeating Aquatik. As far as getting exactly what you pay for, how so? Find me any PC with the hardware specs of the iBook or iMac clasic. The price would probably be half if indeed you could find a PC with such antiquated hardware at all. I doubt it. Or if you prefer, take the price of the low end iBook and compare it too any PC notebook at that price and see if the PC has even two of the low end components that are in the Mac. I contend that you are not getting what you pay for."



    Apple sells two lines: Pro and Consumer each with different levels of systems in both laptop and desktop units. You buy what you can afford... It's really that simple. If you feel the offerings are outta whack then you are free to move on to another company but I've gotta tell you you'd be hard pressed to find a machine like the top of the line iMac in the PEECEE world you seem to lust after. The iMac has gone 'head to head' in PC magazines with systems TWICE it's cost and still come out on top (or just under).



    "believe it or not, any brand new PC you buy today will have technology in it that will be compatable with current and future technology for years to come. Bringing older systems up to date can usually be accomplished with a $50 add on card from any computer store. "



    Yea? Try jamming PC2100 ram into a PC133 motherboard?!?!! Or a 4x AGP card into a PCI only motherboard? Hows about a P3 CPU into a P2 motherboard... What the hell is a $50 add on card gonna do to help people keep up current systems?



    And when it comes to laptops how the hell are you gonna jam a new video card or jam a Type II PCCard into a Type I PCCard slot?? into that PC laptop you got two years back?!?!



    "Has Apple conditioned you to believe that you should expect your new purchases to be outdated soon after you buy? Man they really did a number on you."



    Has Apple? Heck no... I learned about this after I just saved up enough to buy my first turbo 286 motherboard and CPU (couldn't afford the memory or case yet) and the first 386 systems were announced...



    Time to grow up kid... All products are aging and faster then you think.



    Wouldn't happen to be an audio buff would ya? How may different types of dolby have come out over the past 10 or so years?



    Dolby surround, Dolby digital, DD 5.1, DD 6.1, DD 7.1, THX fluff, Different/better DAC's etc etc etc and I left out a bunch... Why so many? Because the companies want to provide the best sound they can?!?! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> or because they want to sell more systems...



    Dave
  • Reply 43 of 81
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,283member
    Hi Ed,



    This is what I mean:



    Specifications



    Processor: Mobile Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor-M 1.4GHz



    Screen: 15.0" XGA TFT Active Matrix



    Memory: 256MB DDR SDRAM



    Hard Drive: 20GB Ultra ATA hard drive



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    Battery: Primary Lithium Ion Battery with AC pack



    Dimensions: 13.15" x 10.63" x 1.3" (W x D x H), approximate weight 6.01lb.



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    You can see the same thing with any other brand as well. In fact, there are much better deals to be had. For less than the price of the high end iBook, you can buy a PC configuration that looks a lot more like the PB. Only in the Mac universe is a 16 or 32 MB vid card considered bleeding edge power.



    Part of my point was that outside of Apple's rdf, what you consider high end, PC users know to be mid range at best. Sometime even budget/low end. If you buy an iBook priced PC notebook, you wouldn't have to upgrade it. I was speaking of desktops when I mentioned $50 upgrade parts.
  • Reply 44 of 81
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,283member
    Hello friend Dave,



    You said,



    "Yea? Try jamming PC2100 ram into a PC133 motherboard?!?!! Or a 4x AGP card into a PCI only motherboard? Hows about a P3 CPU into a P2 motherboard... What the hell is a $50 add on card gonna do to help people keep up current systems?"



    You are reaching back quite a few years for that one. OK, you might have to spend $100-$150 on a new mobo.



    By the way, son, I am quite grown. Also, I am an audio buff.



    P. S. I only use a sharp tone to those who I think can take it, or those who also use such a tone, or those who are just begging for a verbal spanking. I don't use emoticons but I always write with a smile.
  • Reply 45 of 81
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Alright, I'll cut you all some slack.



    Why is the iBook 500 mhz with a 66 mhz "crippleware"?



    Well, the answer is simple. Look at the 600/100 model. What else is different? Virtually NOTHING. Ah, what does that mean? No additional cooling, etc? That Apple downclocked the 500, most likely, as the kinks in the fab are most likely worked out by now. As Eugene, I think, speculated in some thread asking why there's no 1ghz PB, the iBook and PB could be faster, but are being held back so as not to compete with the desktop lines. Also, I think he pointed out that Apple, as all manufacturers, is releasing incremental upgrades, not giving us the top of the line now, and being high and dry for new models.



    Why does Apple do this? Ca$h. They're a company. In trouble, I might add, or at least, not off scott free yet (until M$ is split up)



    Another example, to illustrate my point:



    The IIsi I paid dearly for.



    The Color Classic I paid dearly for.



    The Duos.



    This is mostly about the bus. It seems Apple likes to stretch out motherboard designs, too long.



    Anyway, moving right along...



    Yes, I'm a Trekkie. That icon set from Xicons (or was it Icon factory?) is great!
  • Reply 46 of 81
    berbercarpetberbercarpet Posts: 242member
    There is an aesthetic quality to the iBook that is missing in any PC you can find for a similar price.





    I have often gone to Best Buy (and such) to see what's going on in the PC world, and am amazed at the *quantity* of stuff they get into a "low end" notebook, but always (always) come away amazed at the lack of real quality.



    Those cheap PCs are just crap.





    They feel "flimsy."



    Their screens (even though large) are blurry and none to bright.



    They are heavy. No, I mean *really* heavy.



    They *seem* slow when you use it.... This might just be the Windows OS, but menus "fade in and out" and the like.



    They cannot--from what I have seen--be put the sleep by closing the thing. And once they're closed they are hard to open. And once they're open they take a loooong time to wake up--once you've realized you have to actually *do something* to wake them up.





    I didn't buy a $1500 notebook for pure processing power. I bought it so that I could have a notebook with me whereever I go, and that it might be usable.



    My iBook fits that bill.



    It's light, it turns on and off fast, it's strong and it is absolutely georgous.



    I like it.



    - me
  • Reply 47 of 81
    junkyard dawgjunkyard dawg Posts: 2,801member
    Apple needs phat margins to survive, it's as simple as that. Of course Jobs would love to sell bleeding edge hardware, but it would be priced so high that nobody would buy it. Apple must milk these designs for ages because they don't have the money to keep up to date. It's that simple.



    Until Apple has at least twice as much market share, they are on life support. They MUST rake in enormous profit margins to remain profitable. It's the ugly truth. If it means shipping crippleware, then that's how it goes.



    As for the speed gap with Intel, Motorola needs to get out faster CPUs, but Apple should have seen this coming as well. When the clones ended, I guarantee you that Moto reprioritized desktop PPC development. It's sort of payback, but at the same time, it's good business, for Moto, since desktop PPC sales don't amount to much for them.



    If in fact Apple is paying for PPC development, then that's even more overhead on Macs that other companies don't have on their computers. It's really amazing that Apple is still in business, really.
  • Reply 48 of 81
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    [quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:

    <strong>By the way, son, I am quite grown. Also, I am an audio buff.



    P. S. I only use a sharp tone to those who I think can take it, or those who also use such a tone, or those who are just begging for a verbal spanking. I don't use emoticons but I always write with a smile.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Ahh so we're in the same boat on a few counts...



    Being an Audio buff then I'm kind of surprised you don't agree with me about electronics being outdated (almost) as soon as they hit retail... I admit I used audio since it happens to be one of the better examples of pre-planned obsalesance... (a speller I'm not!)



    You gotta know the DD folks have those technology updates mapped out for quite some time and are just waiting for sales to fall to bring out the next best thing.. Audio being what it is ($$$) they know (for the most part) their clients tend to have money to burn and churn their equipment all the time.



    Video to (to a lesser degree) does this too... They are at a greater disadvantage since video is tied to the display market and can only change 'just so much' but with composite, svideo, component connection methods (and soon firewire I hope) and different/better video decoders as well as progressive scan etc they too play the 'upgrade game'.



    While we might not like the fact that computers also fall into the group the fact is they do...



    I remember a time where MB updates took a few YEARS to change.. and then came the 286 and it too kinda sat in limbo for a while then the turbo 286s hit and all hell started to break loose... 386's and then the 386sx followed by the 486 and then the Pentium family...



    Think back at how many different MBs have been rev'ed just over the Pentium years.



    Sure hackers like us would just buy a new MB and memory and maybe a new video card but usually you found yourself wanting a new case as well and a faster CD or later a CDRW or DVD or Combo or Superdive...



    Add up all the 'simple upgrades' you've done and sure you might have saved some money but if you had to pay someone to do those upgrades for you... You'd have paid a lot more.



    The Mac has never been a hardware hackers machine (and it never will be - sans the Power Computing years). People (including me) have ALWAYS wanted it to be but it isn't - why do I put up with it?



    Simple: Apple makes a better experience and with OS X I don't see me ever going back.



    Dave



    [ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</p>
  • Reply 49 of 81
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    [quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:

    <strong>Hi Ed,



    Mobile Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor-M 1.4GHz

    Screen: 15.0" XGA TFT Active Matrix

    Memory: 256MB DDR SDRAM

    Hard Drive: 20GB Ultra ATA hard drive

    CD-ROM or DVD: Modular 8x/8x/24x Recordable/Rewriteable CDRW drive

    Video: ATI Mobility Radeon w/ 32MB DDR



    Dimensions: 13.15" x 10.63" x 1.3" (W x D x H), approximate weight 6.01lb.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    OK, first this thing's on special, so it's probably not going to come out that cheap next month. Second of all, it looks like a decent performer, but it's big and a pound heavier than the iBook, and I see nothing about battery life - which is kind of the whole point of getting a laptop, IMO. Also, I'd be shocked and amazed if it handles wireless networking anywhere near as well.



    Of course Apple makes tradeoffs in their laptops. Laptops are all about tradeoffs. I'm grateful for the fact that they are willing to actually consider the possibility that a laptop is more than a luggable, unergonomic, flimsy desktop machine with a dim LCD. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />



    The iBook, on the other hand, is sweet in actual use. The one I've used is the original dual USB iBook, not the new 600Mhz one.



    [ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
  • Reply 50 of 81
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Yes, Amorph, the iBook is sweet (were you in 9?)



    I bought it for the screen, form factor, Combo drive, and overclocking. I bought it with the intention of clocking it, which I'll do after graduation...



    Yes, Junkyard Dawg, I think you're right, it is amazing how Apple is still in business! I think it is only because of people like us. They have a great product, and only people like us realize this, so we've turned into outspoken advocates. That, and look at their competitor. The only thing worse, could be Micro$oft using 12 year old kids to make their CDs. If they could make a profit doing it, they probably would. I can definitely see Apple pulling through and doubling market share within a few years, although I see this as dependent on how M$'s purchase of the American government goes, more than on Motorola CPUs. Things will work out somehow, they always have before.



    And it's obsolescence Companies have to plan it. Apple does have to keep selling hardware... It's a necessary evil. Emphasis on the evil..
  • Reply 51 of 81
    hmmm...



    I used to like the upgrading, but after a while I just got tired of it an stopped. My main reason for stopping was that I liked to have more than one PC, I like networking, playing LAN games, having 2 workstations, etc... With new macs I can't upgrade, sure there are downsides like having the same GPU forever, but other than that it's all good.



    When you upgrade computers what do you do with the old ish? give it away? sell it? eat it? it doesn't matter cuz you don't use it...



    And upgrading brings mismatched parts, all from different times and tech...
  • Reply 52 of 81
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,283member
    Hi folks,



    Its been a fun discussion. No one to spank in this round of posts so I guess I'll just have to get back on topic.



    Quartz Extreme will mean absolutely nothing for the iBook. There will probably be an update to the iBook but not because of QE. If X didn't mean anything for the iBook then QE certainly won't.



    I don't have anything against Apple but they are easy targets these days and must of their wounds are self inflicted. They make the hardware and the software. There is supposed to be some sort of advantage in that, right? Yet, they can't seem to put out an OS that can run to its fullest on the hardware they design. If there are going to be conflicts and incompatibilities, let them come from third party vendors. The one peice of software that should works fully on a Mac should be the OS that is built for it. That's what is wrong with whole situation in my opinion.
  • Reply 53 of 81
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    [quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:

    <strong>The one peice of software that should works fully on a Mac should be the OS that is built for it. That's what is wrong with whole situation in my opinion.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    If the threads about 10.2 - posted by people who are using it - are true, Apple is getting around to that right now.



    Finally.



    It's good to start fresh with an OS whose filesystem isn't emulated 68K code...
  • Reply 54 of 81
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    [quote]Originally posted by Aquatik:

    <strong>Yes, Amorph, the iBook is sweet (were you in 9?)</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yup.



    It's no speed demon in 9, but that's not the point. It's an absolute joy to work with.



    As of now I'm really looking forward to what Jaguar will do on the iBook. QE won't run, but by the reports coming in it's still much faster.



    That will be sweet. OS X screaming on an iBook. Oh, yeah. :cool:
  • Reply 55 of 81
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    No one is reading Programmers post!



    T&L he said probably won't be necessary (why would it?)



    Equally important, the 8 megs of VRAM, or even the memory requirement altogether for Quartz Extreme, might be Apple BS to make you upgrade. Programmer said AGP allows the video card to read out of system RAM! This is cool. He didn't know whether the Rage 128 supported it, however. Do you know, Amorph? Because if it can, I see no reason why QE won't work on iceBooks!
  • Reply 56 of 81
    paulpaul Posts: 5,278member
    Rage 128 isnt supported... it was in a letter from ATI that someone posted on the board... i'm not sure where it is... It doenst really matter tho, even if QE wont work it will still be faster then 10.1 and thats pretty damn fast... I have an Rev A iMac that is the only computer I own with X on it... 10.1 isnt all THAT bad, but its also a 4 year old computer... I would imagine even the 500MHz iBooks would be decent with enough RAM...
  • Reply 57 of 81
    scott f.scott f. Posts: 276member
    I guess we're just gonna have to wait... I have not seen a "straight" and informed answer yet. Some say "we're f**ked" and others seem to feel that the QE functions will offload to the AGPs processor and be equally distributed to all and/or any displays regardless of speed. That is what I'M hoping... I'd love to get a GeForce4 Ti (When available) and let it do all the work for my other cards.



    Only time will tell.
  • Reply 58 of 81
    boemaneboemane Posts: 311member
    To all of those who think Apple is releasing "Crippleware". Do you remember when the iMac was introduces, or the iBook, PB or iMac 2 ? They where really good price/performance wise. When the PB was introduces, it was compared to a Sony Vaio. The difference was that the PB was lighter, had a DVD-ROM and a longer battery life. The PB was only about 50 bucks more expensive.



    The same goes for the original iMac and the iMac 2. The iMac 2 is being compared to PCs, and have currently (last time i checked) the best price per performance.



    The problem with Apple is that they introduce products that are good prices compared to PCs, but when the PCs drop in price, Apples computers does not. They usually keep the same price (with some changes along the way - especially for the original iMac) untill the product is end-of-lifed. I guess that has something to do with apple needing more money from each product before it can introduce a serious upgrade to it.



    Apple must spend a HUGE amount of money on design for every product the introduce.



    Besides you dont get iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie etc. applications on a PeeCee for free. And certainly not apps with the same outstanding quality. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
  • Reply 59 of 81
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    [quote]Originally posted by Aquatik:

    <strong>No one is reading Programmers post!



    T&L he said probably won't be necessary (why would it?)</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I can't imagine why T&L would be relevant either; more importantly, since Programmer knows a whole heck of a lot more about graphics programming than I do, I'll take him at his word.



    The only other thing that the Rage 128 doesn't have is much in the way of programmability. QE might depend on some of the same features that are being worked into OpenGL 2.0.



    It's not possible to get a definitive answer until someone who's actually worked on it at a low level breaks an NDA (and what are the odds?) but that's my best guess.



    [quote]<strong>Equally important, the 8 megs of VRAM, or even the memory requirement altogether for Quartz Extreme, might be Apple BS to make you upgrade.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Or it might not. AGP can read out of system RAM, but that's a whole lot slower than the RAM on board the video card - as much because its data has to be pushed through the AGP bus as because it tends to be slower in and of itself. The video chipset uses RAM to cache textures (windows, in this implementation), and it has to reload the entire cache in order to load a new texture (window). Each window in Mac OS runs into the megabytes, so it's easy to see where 8MB becomes hard to work with. A 512 x 512 window rendered in 32 bit color takes up 8 MB (uncompressed). Fortunately, Quartz can compress window buffers. Assuming good compression, you might be able to squeeze two or even three (smaller) windows into the cache, work with them, then flush them out and load 1-3 more. If you have a lot of windows open, that's a lot of back and forth across the AGP bus!



    A window larger than 8MB compressed (not impossible to imagine, if you're working on a Cinema HD display or the like...) couldn't be cached at all, so it would just slow things down.



    [ 05-09-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
  • Reply 60 of 81
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    1. The ibook has not been bumped in something like seven months.



    2. New technology is in the pipe that will not run on the current iBook.



    3. In the next several months, a new school year will start, which is when many students buy their computers.



    4. Students like laptops.



    5. Apple likes selling to students.



    6. The iBook is a popular model with students (esp. with that education discount!).



    7. The current iBook is under spec and needs to be bumped to compete with PC notebooks.



    Conclusion: New iBooks sometime late July/ early August. This will be when Jaguar comes out and you can use Quartz extreme. I'm not reading tea leaves here, this is obvious.



    Apple releases their hardware in revisions, just like every other computer vendor. You have to understand that they have cycles to their releases and that if a product is looking stale that you should wait a bit and get a fresh version. In the cycle, there is a time when the product looks bad, but there is also a time when the product looks good. For Apple's consumer products, this cycle generally revolves around the beginning of the college school year (early August). Anyone can complain that right now, the iBook doesn't look as attractive as it should, but they should also give Apple applause when it gets revised and the upgrade cycle starts again.
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