Apple can, however, continue to supply them with these devices (that are both a phone AND an internet communication device capable of bypassing the censors), and given the right tools, users can continue without Apple's "blessing"%u2026
Or, they can just buy a Samsung that does this without any special jailbreaks, etc. No wonder Apple released the iPhone in gold ... That should assure them a few sales until Samsung comes out with one.
Most likely the bigger problem in this scenario is finding the websites that offer such apps, or getting through the firewall to get them.
A few years ago Google redirected Chinese users to their Hong Kong Google search which wasn't censored and allowed people to search terms like "tiananmen square" and it royally pissed off the Chinese government. The Chinese gov't blocked Google and Google caved. They went back to allowing China to censor search results but Google put a message up to the user saying that the results had been censored. That message was dropped early this year.
I was in Beijing a few months ago. Google still redirects to the Hong Kong site. And the site is censored. I don't know about any warning message. But this is no secret - everybody there knows that it is censored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taniwha
Yeah right. Anything for a buck is ok. Good thinking. Wanna buy some crack ?
And what's the alternative? Violate the law and risk getting kicked out of the country altogether?
You and I might be willing to risk this, but no corporation wants to risk that level of punishment in order to make a political statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murman
Does that work like a proxy? If so, there are plenty of proxy services on the web, although are they all or mostly blocked at this point?
There are anti-firewall proxies. The Chinese government routinely finds and shuts them down. And new ones are created. It's a never-ending game of cat-and-mouse, which everybody who cares, plays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
Open Door was sold in the Chinese App Store until July of this year, when Apple pulled the program, saying that it contained content that was illegal within China. The app saw roughly 2,000 daily downloads in China, according to the Daily Mail, and it is still available in the App Stores of other countries, including the U.S. App Store.
Interesting to note that is available in other countries. I wonder if this can be exploited.
For instance, can someone in the US purchase a copy using iTunes (on a Mac or PC), then mail the application bundle into China, where the recipient can drag/drop it into iTunes for installation on a phone? If both the purchase and the installation are done using the same AppleID and password, I think it should work.
In other words, this may end up being more of an inconvenience than anything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa
Very easy answer: do what Amazon does: allow any user to shop in any of Amazon's national stores with a single user ID.
That way they can abide by the law and remove it from the Chinese AppStore, but people in China simply switch store and buy the app e.g. in the US store.
The necessity to have a different AppleID for each store is brain-dead in a mobile, globalized economy anyway:
Agreed. I'm sure Apple had good reasons at the time (e.g. different tax laws in different nations, exclusive marketing deals, etc.) which make cross-border purchases legally messy, but the time has come to deal with the mess and drop the hassles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa
I may point out that anything that happened in Nazi-Germany was according to the law.
So why are companies to this day paying retribution for having followed the law?
Because nobody is allowed to hide behind the law and chain of command if the laws run counter to basic HUMAN RIGHTS.
There are more important values than corporate profits in this world.
Are you equating internet censorship with Nazi death camps? Shame on you.
And if you seriously believe this, are you boycotting the thousands of corporations that use cheap Chinese labor for their manufacturing? Do you avoid buying Chinese-branded products?
Did you protest when Bill Clinton ignored decades of human rights abuses (which go on to this day) and removed all trade barriers with China?
Are you now protesting the fact that China has been blockading commerce in the entire South China Sea, which is an international act of war? Are you demanding that the US use its Navy to protect international commerce in the region?
If you are serious about punishing China for their countless acts of war and human rights abuses, do you get involved wit protesting them all? Some? More than one? Or are you just complaining here because it's fashionable to pick on Apple for doing what everybody else does?
Yeah right. Anything for a buck is ok. Good thinking. Wanna buy some crack ?
And what's the alternative? Violate the law and risk getting kicked out of the country altogether?
You and I might be willing to risk this, but no corporation wants to risk that level of punishment in order to make a political statement.
And the sad part is, that this "fact" is accepted as such, as if this were the most normal and ideal situation, as if corporations had no social responsibility at all. It's the mind set that allows a thriving business in blood diamonds, the senseless deforestation of rain forests, human rights abuses all over the world, etc. because commerce trumps ethics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
Open Door was sold in the Chinese App Store until July of this year, when Apple pulled the program, saying that it contained content that was illegal within China. The app saw roughly 2,000 daily downloads in China, according to the Daily Mail, and it is still available in the App Stores of other countries, including the U.S. App Store.
Interesting to note that is available in other countries. I wonder if this can be exploited.
For instance, can someone in the US purchase a copy using iTunes (on a Mac or PC), then mail the application bundle into China, where the recipient can drag/drop it into iTunes for installation on a phone? If both the purchase and the installation are done using the same AppleID and password, I think it should work.
In other words, this may end up being more of an inconvenience than anything else.
No, not like that. The person in the US would need to create a iTunes store account for the person in China and give that person the store credentials (AppleID, password) for the app bundle to be installable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa
I may point out that anything that happened in Nazi-Germany was according to the law.
So why are companies to this day paying retribution for having followed the law?
Because nobody is allowed to hide behind the law and chain of command if the laws run counter to basic HUMAN RIGHTS.
There are more important values than corporate profits in this world.
Are you equating internet censorship with Nazi death camps? Shame on you.
And if you seriously believe this, are you boycotting the thousands of corporations that use cheap Chinese labor for their manufacturing? Do you avoid buying Chinese-branded products?
Did you protest when Bill Clinton ignored decades of human rights abuses (which go on to this day) and removed all trade barriers with China?
Are you now protesting the fact that China has been blockading commerce in the entire South China Sea, which is an international act of war? Are you demanding that the US use its Navy to protect international commerce in the region?
If you are serious about punishing China for their countless acts of war and human rights abuses, do you get involved wit protesting them all? Some? More than one? Or are you just complaining here because it's fashionable to pick on Apple for doing what everybody else does?
I don't equate internet censorship with death camps, but I equate one dictatorial regime with another. Nazi Germany was big on censorship, and China tortures, imprisons and kills political adversaries, engages in a systematic Han-ification process in Tibet, prosecutes people who are "different" in whatever way rubs the ruling party elite the wrong way.
Does it really matter if it's Jews or Buddhist monks who are being killed and persecuted?
Shame on you, if you can't see the similarities between the two regimes.
Since Apple is a high profile multinational company, it's risks of violating any country's laws are infinitely greater than that of any individual's risk. As one commenter noted, TOR is a great alternative. The developer could take its app to Cydia. Besides, Cydia is the marketplace for the more adventurous users.
In the meantime, articles like this will kick off the best free advertising imaginable.
Since Apple is a high profile multinational company, it's risks of violating any country's laws are infinitely greater than that of any individual's risk. As one commenter noted, TOR is a great alternative. The developer could take its app to Cydia. Besides, Cydia is the marketplace for the more adventurous users.
In the meantime, articles like this will kick off the best free advertising imaginable.
The risk isn't big at all: it is forsaking doing business in a country run by a bad regime. It's common practice which is why Apple does no business in North Korea, Syria, Iran, Cuba...
It's just that the US has grown so dependent on China and cheap imports that the US can't afford to take stance against the regime anymore. Difficult to oppose a regime that holds most of the US national debt and which could collapse the US economy with the equivalent of an economic nuke by dumping all that debt onto the market.
For the similar reasons the US can't stand up against the regimes of various oil exporting countries...
Addiction is a bad foundation to stand on for any one or any country that claims to be a moral compass for the world.
Removing apps that break the law. Yeah, that is a HORRIBLE thing for Apple to do!
Anything can be law, even systematic genocide. The question is what us the value of the law and if one identifies with that value. A person or institution with integrity doesn't abide by immoral laws and will instead exercise civil disobedience or boycott a particular country.
What Apple does is show that they have little spine, unfortunately, they are no exception.
Even more disgusting are various US companies that helped China build their censorship infrastructure...
But the bottom line is, that just because something is law somewhere doesn't make it justifiable.
Comply with Chinese law, and you get to sell your product in China.
Don't comply with Chinese law, and you don't get to sell your product in China. And no iPhones for consumers in China.
And the law we're talking about here isn't anything particularly brutal. China's government is Commnunist, but market/capital-centric. There are going to be a few trade-offs. The particular one that caused Apple to do what they did in this situation isn't really anything to write home about. It's "news" because Apple drew criticism for it, unreasonable as it may have been.
I wonder how China would feel if Apple closed up shop there and moved all of their manufacturing to Taiwan? I'll bet they would be open to negotiating then ...
Your black and white views of China are wildly out of step with reality. If not for outside influences pushing China's human rights policies, there would be no market for iDevices there.
I'm glad I'm not living in your America where the South's economic model was based on slavery, and all that matters is selling more cotton.
I think you are a fool. Don't you know Apple does not have an Apple retail store in Taiwan? Do you know the reason? Taiwanese hate Apple.
Google caved. They went back to allowing China to censor search results but Google put a message up to the user saying that the results had been censored. That message was dropped early this year.
These activists are very selfish. Did they try to make an Android version of the app? The iPhone is only #7 in China. The number 1 to number 6 smartphones in China are all running Androids. Why would Apple be utilized by these people? Personally I don't think these activists are good for China. And this is the reason they are banned.
I think you are a fool. Don't you know Apple does not have an Apple retail store in Taiwan? Do you know the reason? Taiwanese hate Apple.
1) By your logic anywhere Apple doesn't have a store is because the native people hate Apple. Now do you really think that's the case?
2) There have been stories before with Apple working with Taiwanese companies. I think most recently it was about making machines to help make devices. Regardless. what the people may feel about a company's product is usually irrelevant to how businesses feel about making a profit. IOW, if there is a Taiwanese company that can profit off Apple's needs then they will do their best to make that happen even if they prefer their shitty Android phones over iPhones.
Can Americans do things againest the US government? I don't think so. So your logic is flawed.
Of course they can. Case in point, Americans shut down the government this past week. You can say that's Congress but it's made up of Americans, and those Americans are influenced by other Americans. In this case crazy Americans, but still Americans.
I think you are a fool. Don't you know Apple does not have an Apple retail store in Taiwan? Do you know the reason? Taiwanese hate Apple.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I guarantee the Taiwanese would bend over backwards if Apple moved their manufacturing out of China and into Taiwan. What are they gonna do, sabotage the thousands of jobs Apple brings to the nation? Besides the point is not where Apple moves their manufacturing, its that they threaten to move them out of China. That is a major bargaining chip.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I guarantee the Taiwanese would bend over backwards if Apple moved their manufacturing out of China and into Taiwan. What are they gonna do, sabotage the thousands of jobs Apple brings to the nation? Besides the point is not where Apple moves their manufacturing, its that they threaten to move them out of China. That is a major bargaining chip.
On Apple threatening to move production out of China it would likely be an empty threat unless they can 1) get more automation, and/or 2) move to India. The latter I think is the long term plan anyway as China's economy gets more demanding (and rightly so) for higher wages. It may also allow for lower tariffs in India which could allow for lower prices for Indian consumers in the future.
My point was the material risks (litigation, resourcing and revenue loss) are far greater for a large company like Apple than for an individual. For Apple to continue to offer a product that violates a law of any country in which it operates makes no sense. Leaving the China marketplace over this issue also makes no sense - especially given the many alternatives to the app in question.
You have every right to rail against China for its various policies. You also have every right to disagree with Apple's choice to avoid conflict on this issue so that it can more comfortably stay in the China marketplace. Accordingly, it's fair for you to continue to protest - or even refuse to buy its products.
However, Apple also has every right to do what it thinks best for it's long term health and it's shareholders.
Comments
Most likely the bigger problem in this scenario is finding the websites that offer such apps, or getting through the firewall to get them.
A few years ago Google redirected Chinese users to their Hong Kong Google search which wasn't censored and allowed people to search terms like "tiananmen square" and it royally pissed off the Chinese government. The Chinese gov't blocked Google and Google caved. They went back to allowing China to censor search results but Google put a message up to the user saying that the results had been censored. That message was dropped early this year.
I was in Beijing a few months ago. Google still redirects to the Hong Kong site. And the site is censored. I don't know about any warning message. But this is no secret - everybody there knows that it is censored.
Yeah right. Anything for a buck is ok. Good thinking. Wanna buy some crack ?
And what's the alternative? Violate the law and risk getting kicked out of the country altogether?
You and I might be willing to risk this, but no corporation wants to risk that level of punishment in order to make a political statement.
Does that work like a proxy? If so, there are plenty of proxy services on the web, although are they all or mostly blocked at this point?
There are anti-firewall proxies. The Chinese government routinely finds and shuts them down. And new ones are created. It's a never-ending game of cat-and-mouse, which everybody who cares, plays.
Open Door was sold in the Chinese App Store until July of this year, when Apple pulled the program, saying that it contained content that was illegal within China. The app saw roughly 2,000 daily downloads in China, according to the Daily Mail, and it is still available in the App Stores of other countries, including the U.S. App Store.
Interesting to note that is available in other countries. I wonder if this can be exploited.
For instance, can someone in the US purchase a copy using iTunes (on a Mac or PC), then mail the application bundle into China, where the recipient can drag/drop it into iTunes for installation on a phone? If both the purchase and the installation are done using the same AppleID and password, I think it should work.
In other words, this may end up being more of an inconvenience than anything else.
Very easy answer: do what Amazon does: allow any user to shop in any of Amazon's national stores with a single user ID.
That way they can abide by the law and remove it from the Chinese AppStore, but people in China simply switch store and buy the app e.g. in the US store.
The necessity to have a different AppleID for each store is brain-dead in a mobile, globalized economy anyway:
Agreed. I'm sure Apple had good reasons at the time (e.g. different tax laws in different nations, exclusive marketing deals, etc.) which make cross-border purchases legally messy, but the time has come to deal with the mess and drop the hassles.
I may point out that anything that happened in Nazi-Germany was according to the law.
So why are companies to this day paying retribution for having followed the law?
Because nobody is allowed to hide behind the law and chain of command if the laws run counter to basic HUMAN RIGHTS.
There are more important values than corporate profits in this world.
Are you equating internet censorship with Nazi death camps? Shame on you.
And if you seriously believe this, are you boycotting the thousands of corporations that use cheap Chinese labor for their manufacturing? Do you avoid buying Chinese-branded products?
Did you protest when Bill Clinton ignored decades of human rights abuses (which go on to this day) and removed all trade barriers with China?
Are you now protesting the fact that China has been blockading commerce in the entire South China Sea, which is an international act of war? Are you demanding that the US use its Navy to protect international commerce in the region?
If you are serious about punishing China for their countless acts of war and human rights abuses, do you get involved wit protesting them all? Some? More than one? Or are you just complaining here because it's fashionable to pick on Apple for doing what everybody else does?
Yeah right. Anything for a buck is ok. Good thinking. Wanna buy some crack ?
And what's the alternative? Violate the law and risk getting kicked out of the country altogether?
You and I might be willing to risk this, but no corporation wants to risk that level of punishment in order to make a political statement.
And the sad part is, that this "fact" is accepted as such, as if this were the most normal and ideal situation, as if corporations had no social responsibility at all. It's the mind set that allows a thriving business in blood diamonds, the senseless deforestation of rain forests, human rights abuses all over the world, etc. because commerce trumps ethics.
Open Door was sold in the Chinese App Store until July of this year, when Apple pulled the program, saying that it contained content that was illegal within China. The app saw roughly 2,000 daily downloads in China, according to the Daily Mail, and it is still available in the App Stores of other countries, including the U.S. App Store.
Interesting to note that is available in other countries. I wonder if this can be exploited.
For instance, can someone in the US purchase a copy using iTunes (on a Mac or PC), then mail the application bundle into China, where the recipient can drag/drop it into iTunes for installation on a phone? If both the purchase and the installation are done using the same AppleID and password, I think it should work.
In other words, this may end up being more of an inconvenience than anything else.
No, not like that. The person in the US would need to create a iTunes store account for the person in China and give that person the store credentials (AppleID, password) for the app bundle to be installable.
I may point out that anything that happened in Nazi-Germany was according to the law.
So why are companies to this day paying retribution for having followed the law?
Because nobody is allowed to hide behind the law and chain of command if the laws run counter to basic HUMAN RIGHTS.
There are more important values than corporate profits in this world.
Are you equating internet censorship with Nazi death camps? Shame on you.
And if you seriously believe this, are you boycotting the thousands of corporations that use cheap Chinese labor for their manufacturing? Do you avoid buying Chinese-branded products?
Did you protest when Bill Clinton ignored decades of human rights abuses (which go on to this day) and removed all trade barriers with China?
Are you now protesting the fact that China has been blockading commerce in the entire South China Sea, which is an international act of war? Are you demanding that the US use its Navy to protect international commerce in the region?
If you are serious about punishing China for their countless acts of war and human rights abuses, do you get involved wit protesting them all? Some? More than one? Or are you just complaining here because it's fashionable to pick on Apple for doing what everybody else does?
I don't equate internet censorship with death camps, but I equate one dictatorial regime with another. Nazi Germany was big on censorship, and China tortures, imprisons and kills political adversaries, engages in a systematic Han-ification process in Tibet, prosecutes people who are "different" in whatever way rubs the ruling party elite the wrong way.
Does it really matter if it's Jews or Buddhist monks who are being killed and persecuted?
Shame on you, if you can't see the similarities between the two regimes.
In the meantime, articles like this will kick off the best free advertising imaginable.
I'm beginning to think the Chinese are a bunch of baby whiners. Yes, Apple should just continue to allow law breaking in China.
The risk isn't big at all: it is forsaking doing business in a country run by a bad regime. It's common practice which is why Apple does no business in North Korea, Syria, Iran, Cuba...
It's just that the US has grown so dependent on China and cheap imports that the US can't afford to take stance against the regime anymore. Difficult to oppose a regime that holds most of the US national debt and which could collapse the US economy with the equivalent of an economic nuke by dumping all that debt onto the market.
For the similar reasons the US can't stand up against the regimes of various oil exporting countries...
Addiction is a bad foundation to stand on for any one or any country that claims to be a moral compass for the world.
Anything can be law, even systematic genocide. The question is what us the value of the law and if one identifies with that value. A person or institution with integrity doesn't abide by immoral laws and will instead exercise civil disobedience or boycott a particular country.
What Apple does is show that they have little spine, unfortunately, they are no exception.
Even more disgusting are various US companies that helped China build their censorship infrastructure...
But the bottom line is, that just because something is law somewhere doesn't make it justifiable.
Ridiculously simple situation.
Comply with Chinese law, and you get to sell your product in China.
Don't comply with Chinese law, and you don't get to sell your product in China. And no iPhones for consumers in China.
And the law we're talking about here isn't anything particularly brutal. China's government is Commnunist, but market/capital-centric. There are going to be a few trade-offs. The particular one that caused Apple to do what they did in this situation isn't really anything to write home about. It's "news" because Apple drew criticism for it, unreasonable as it may have been.
Didn't Google pull out of China for this reason?
Yes they did. Because the chinese government was hacking into googles search database and also blocking searches.
Here's a good article on the matter: http://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-2010-3
http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/traffic/disruptions/#region=CN&expand=ALL
With a huge population and lots of money to be had making the choice to buck the Chinese government isn't good for business.
I wonder how China would feel if Apple closed up shop there and moved all of their manufacturing to Taiwan? I'll bet they would be open to negotiating then ...
Your black and white views of China are wildly out of step with reality. If not for outside influences pushing China's human rights policies, there would be no market for iDevices there.
I'm glad I'm not living in your America where the South's economic model was based on slavery, and all that matters is selling more cotton.
I think you are a fool. Don't you know Apple does not have an Apple retail store in Taiwan? Do you know the reason? Taiwanese hate Apple.
Google caved. They went back to allowing China to censor search results but Google put a message up to the user saying that the results had been censored. That message was dropped early this year.
lol
These activists are very selfish. Did they try to make an Android version of the app? The iPhone is only #7 in China. The number 1 to number 6 smartphones in China are all running Androids. Why would Apple be utilized by these people? Personally I don't think these activists are good for China. And this is the reason they are banned.
When you won't do things the way the Chinese authorities insist this is the result:
http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/traffic/disruptions/#region=CN&expand=ALL
With a huge population and lots of money to be had making the choice to buck the Chinese government isn't good for business.
Can Americans do things againest the US government? I don't think so. So your logic is flawed.
1) By your logic anywhere Apple doesn't have a store is because the native people hate Apple. Now do you really think that's the case?
2) There have been stories before with Apple working with Taiwanese companies. I think most recently it was about making machines to help make devices. Regardless. what the people may feel about a company's product is usually irrelevant to how businesses feel about making a profit. IOW, if there is a Taiwanese company that can profit off Apple's needs then they will do their best to make that happen even if they prefer their shitty Android phones over iPhones.
Of course they can. Case in point, Americans shut down the government this past week. You can say that's Congress but it's made up of Americans, and those Americans are influenced by other Americans. In this case crazy Americans, but still Americans.
I think you are a fool. Don't you know Apple does not have an Apple retail store in Taiwan? Do you know the reason? Taiwanese hate Apple.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I guarantee the Taiwanese would bend over backwards if Apple moved their manufacturing out of China and into Taiwan. What are they gonna do, sabotage the thousands of jobs Apple brings to the nation? Besides the point is not where Apple moves their manufacturing, its that they threaten to move them out of China. That is a major bargaining chip.
On Apple threatening to move production out of China it would likely be an empty threat unless they can 1) get more automation, and/or 2) move to India. The latter I think is the long term plan anyway as China's economy gets more demanding (and rightly so) for higher wages. It may also allow for lower tariffs in India which could allow for lower prices for Indian consumers in the future.
You have every right to rail against China for its various policies. You also have every right to disagree with Apple's choice to avoid conflict on this issue so that it can more comfortably stay in the China marketplace. Accordingly, it's fair for you to continue to protest - or even refuse to buy its products.
However, Apple also has every right to do what it thinks best for it's long term health and it's shareholders.