I'm so tired of this moronic drivel about Apple over charging for storage increases.
1) Of course it doesn't cost $100 for Apple to go from 16GB to 32GB. If it did, Apple would be selling it for cost. Why would they do that? Oh that's right, it's evil for companies to make money.
2) People who say the cost is really only a few dollars a) don't have access to Apple's supply chain and b) are looking at the cost of CHEAP NAND.
3) It is entirely possible that the 16GB entry option is priced at a lower than normal margin, with the extra margins on storage increases helping offset this. Common practice.
First of all, you can't compare visual latency with touch latency with audio latency. Display latency is not just the more than dubiously reported value from the manufacturer spec sheet. Audio latency is not just the buffer size in your ASIO/CoreAudio driver settings. There are lots of components in the chain that can add their own latency, from DSP processors (usually minimal) to graphics card, input devices etc.
Did you guys know, that on mobile Safari there is a 300ms delay on web browser touch events because the system needs to figure out if you tapped, double tapped or dragged. Now, this has possibly been fixed already (according to Google, on Android it was fixed in Gingerbread) but how many of you can honestly say you noticed this on your older iOS devices? I certainly didn't.
Bringing in older Android versions and devices running them into this discussion is just ridiculous. You know what else is laggy? Older iPhones and iPads running iOS 7. But the latest and greatest devices on both platforms are pretty damn smooth in my experience, meaning that devices have become fast enough that software deficiencies are becoming less of an issue. That's why throwing more hardware at Android works well.
But that's beside the point and that is touch latency. The article doesn't really say what is an acceptable range here. Just that Android tablets have slower response, whether that is due to subpar hardware or software issues. According to Human Benchmark, the average (median) reaction time for their test is 215 milliseconds, with fastest results getting near 100ms. Note that these are not free of hardware and software based latencies either. Based on this, I think the real world effect of touch latency lag is not perceivable. Personally I've had an iPhone 4, iPad 3 and Galaxy S4 in the house at the same time. Never noticed any difference in their touch response.
Of course, just like in the audiophile world, there are always people who claim they can feel or hear the difference and with something like this that varies from person to person, it's hard to claim otherwise - but the brain is notoriously easy to fool so...
<span style="line-height:1.4em;">First of all, you can't compare visual latency with touch latency with audio latency. Display latency is not just the more than dubiously reported value from the manufacturer spec sheet. Audio latency is not just the buffer size in your ASIO/CoreAudio driver settings. There are lots of components in the chain that can add their own latency, from DSP processors (usually minimal) to graphics card, input devices etc.</span>
Did you guys know, that on mobile Safari there is a 300ms delay on web browser touch events because the system needs to figure out if you tapped, double tapped or dragged. Now, this has possibly been fixed already (according to Google, on Android it was fixed in Gingerbread) but how many of you can honestly say you noticed this on your older iOS devices? I certainly didn't.
Bringinqg in older Android versions and devices running them into this discussion is just ridiculous. You know what else is laggy? Older iPhones and iPads running iOS 7. But the latest and greatest devices on both platforms are pretty damn smooth in my experience, meaning that devices have become fast enough that software deficiencies are becoming less of an issue. That's why throwing more hardware at Android works well.
But that's beside the point and that is touch latency. The article doesn't really say what is an acceptable range here. Just that Android tablets have slower response, whether that is due to subpar hardware or software issues. According to Human Benchmark, the average (median) reaction time for their test is 215 milliseconds, with fastest results getting near 100ms. Note that these are not free of hardware and software based latencies either. Based on this, I think the real world effect of touch latency lag is not perceivable. Personally I've had an iPhone 4, iPad 3 and Galaxy S4 in the house at the same time. Never noticed any difference in their touch response.
Of course, just like in the audiophile world, there are always people who claim they can feel or hear the difference and with something like this that varies from person to person, it's hard to claim otherwise - but the brain is notoriously easy to fool so...
My iPhone 5, 5s and retina iPad absolutely thrash my Galaxy S4 in performance.
It's a laggy piece of junk in comparison, I guess that's why there are no music creation Apps made for Android, the lag is perceptible between the pseudo java virtual machine sitting atop a Linux core.
My iPhone 5, 5s and retina iPad absolutely thrash my Galaxy S4 in performance.
It's a laggy piece of junk in comparison, I guess that's why there are no music creation Apps made for Android, the lag is perceptible between the pseudo java virtual machine sitting atop a Linux core.
It occurs to me kids could hook up an Android to a guitar amp to use as a reverb or echo device ...
(That is a 'latency' joke just to explain to non musical folks)
The article doesn't really say what is an acceptable range here. Just that Android tablets have slower response, whether that is due to subpar hardware or software issues.
Acceptable means 'doesn't have a lag that's noticeable to the user'. By that standard, virtually every Android device out there is unacceptable. Just read some reviews. They almost always mention the Android lag - or say that it's not as smooth as iDevices or something similar.
I tend to believe on hardware aspect they all (iPhone, Android or WP8) have more or less the same touch screen controller specs. I think softwares is what separated devices in this benchmark, even on desktop computer Java apps has always got sluggish UI response. Why it should be any different on a much slower device like a phone?
I tend to believe on hardware aspect they all (iPhone, Android or WP8) have more or less the same touch screen controller specs. I think softwares is what separated devices in this benchmark, even on desktop computer Java apps has always got sluggish UI response. Why it should be any different on a much slower device like a phone?
Truly, a lot of the problem with response comes, not from the hardware, but from Android itself.
I installed Android 1.6 on my iPhone a few years back. And on Apple’s hardware–on the best hardware on the market at the time–it was horrible. Lag out the wazoo. It was horrible. And accuracy? Ha! Couldn’t even hit P and Q on the keyboard.
These phones with 2GB RAM? Quad core processors? Dedicated graphics chips? Those are needed to even get the software up to performing as well as it does, and even then it’s worse than the iPhone.
Not to mention they’ve tested the touchscreen hardware on Android devices and found it to be lacking over Apple’s.
Fandroids have long disputed this and they often lie through their teeth claiming stuff like "Android is no longer laggy, it's been fixed in the last update, blah blah blah!". They've been saying that for years now. Don't these pathetic people and lowlifes get tired of lying all of the time?
My Nexus 7 has the latest Android update, and it's still lags quite often when scrolling the screen up and down. Once the new iPad's are out, I'll give the Nexus 7 to the cat to play cat games on. He won't mind the lag as much as it bothers me.
1) Of course it doesn't cost $100 for Apple to go from 16GB to 32GB.
A price breakdown of the iPhone 5S revealed that there's a cost difference to Apple of $8 between the 16 and 64GB models. Yes, the 64GB is far more profitable for Apple as it only costs them $214 to manufacturer it.
But the 20 something rep in my local Fry's store in Fremont, CA assured me that the Samsung Galaxy tablet is the best on the market, I don't get it. He said it was "open" I asked him what "open" meant but he couldn't answer me.
But the 20 something rep in my local Fry's store in Fremont, CA assured me that the Samsung Galaxy tablet is the best on the market, I don't get it. He said it was "open" I asked him what "open" meant but he couldn't answer me.
It means you can have Comic Sans Serif as your system wide font.
My Nexus 7 has the latest Android update, and it's still lags quite often when scrolling the screen up and down. Once the new iPad's are out, I'll give the Nexus 7 to the cat to play cat games on. He won't mind the lag as much as it bothers me.
wait a minute! my kitty has Paws of Lightning! he's gotta be 10x more sensitive to latency than us ... that would be cruel!
Depending on the application, humans can definitely notice a 100 ms latency, as demonstrated in this rather informative microsoft research video
thanks much. after watching, i tried the only such app i have - PDF Pen - on my trusty iPad 2 and could see the line propagating about 1/2" behind my finger as i drew at a normal quick pace. so yes, it does matter. i plan on getting a new iPad next month, so i'll check that out then and see if there is a noticeable improvement. my wife has our 5s right now, but i'll check that out next.
i can see now that a difference of 50 ms really does make a difference in user experience.
Comments
I'm so tired of this moronic drivel about Apple over charging for storage increases.
1) Of course it doesn't cost $100 for Apple to go from 16GB to 32GB. If it did, Apple would be selling it for cost. Why would they do that? Oh that's right, it's evil for companies to make money.
2) People who say the cost is really only a few dollars a) don't have access to Apple's supply chain and b) are looking at the cost of CHEAP NAND.
3) It is entirely possible that the 16GB entry option is priced at a lower than normal margin, with the extra margins on storage increases helping offset this. Common practice.
Couldn't agree more. Well said.
First of all, you can't compare visual latency with touch latency with audio latency. Display latency is not just the more than dubiously reported value from the manufacturer spec sheet. Audio latency is not just the buffer size in your ASIO/CoreAudio driver settings. There are lots of components in the chain that can add their own latency, from DSP processors (usually minimal) to graphics card, input devices etc.
Did you guys know, that on mobile Safari there is a 300ms delay on web browser touch events because the system needs to figure out if you tapped, double tapped or dragged. Now, this has possibly been fixed already (according to Google, on Android it was fixed in Gingerbread) but how many of you can honestly say you noticed this on your older iOS devices? I certainly didn't.
Bringing in older Android versions and devices running them into this discussion is just ridiculous. You know what else is laggy? Older iPhones and iPads running iOS 7. But the latest and greatest devices on both platforms are pretty damn smooth in my experience, meaning that devices have become fast enough that software deficiencies are becoming less of an issue. That's why throwing more hardware at Android works well.
But that's beside the point and that is touch latency. The article doesn't really say what is an acceptable range here. Just that Android tablets have slower response, whether that is due to subpar hardware or software issues. According to Human Benchmark, the average (median) reaction time for their test is 215 milliseconds, with fastest results getting near 100ms. Note that these are not free of hardware and software based latencies either. Based on this, I think the real world effect of touch latency lag is not perceivable. Personally I've had an iPhone 4, iPad 3 and Galaxy S4 in the house at the same time. Never noticed any difference in their touch response.
Of course, just like in the audiophile world, there are always people who claim they can feel or hear the difference and with something like this that varies from person to person, it's hard to claim otherwise - but the brain is notoriously easy to fool so...
My iPhone 5, 5s and retina iPad absolutely thrash my Galaxy S4 in performance.
It's a laggy piece of junk in comparison, I guess that's why there are no music creation Apps made for Android, the lag is perceptible between the pseudo java virtual machine sitting atop a Linux core.
It occurs to me kids could hook up an Android to a guitar amp to use as a reverb or echo device ...
(That is a 'latency' joke just to explain to non musical folks)
Acceptable means 'doesn't have a lag that's noticeable to the user'. By that standard, virtually every Android device out there is unacceptable. Just read some reviews. They almost always mention the Android lag - or say that it's not as smooth as iDevices or something similar.
I tend to believe on hardware aspect they all (iPhone, Android or WP8) have more or less the same touch screen controller specs. I think softwares is what separated devices in this benchmark, even on desktop computer Java apps has always got sluggish UI response. Why it should be any different on a much slower device like a phone?
Truly, a lot of the problem with response comes, not from the hardware, but from Android itself.
I installed Android 1.6 on my iPhone a few years back. And on Apple’s hardware–on the best hardware on the market at the time–it was horrible. Lag out the wazoo. It was horrible. And accuracy? Ha! Couldn’t even hit P and Q on the keyboard.
These phones with 2GB RAM? Quad core processors? Dedicated graphics chips? Those are needed to even get the software up to performing as well as it does, and even then it’s worse than the iPhone.
Not to mention they’ve tested the touchscreen hardware on Android devices and found it to be lacking over Apple’s.
Fandroids have long disputed this and they often lie through their teeth claiming stuff like "Android is no longer laggy, it's been fixed in the last update, blah blah blah!". They've been saying that for years now. Don't these pathetic people and lowlifes get tired of lying all of the time?
My Nexus 7 has the latest Android update, and it's still lags quite often when scrolling the screen up and down. Once the new iPad's are out, I'll give the Nexus 7 to the cat to play cat games on. He won't mind the lag as much as it bothers me.
1) Of course it doesn't cost $100 for Apple to go from 16GB to 32GB.
A price breakdown of the iPhone 5S revealed that there's a cost difference to Apple of $8 between the 16 and 64GB models. Yes, the 64GB is far more profitable for Apple as it only costs them $214 to manufacturer it.
But the 20 something rep in my local Fry's store in Fremont, CA assured me that the Samsung Galaxy tablet is the best on the market, I don't get it. He said it was "open" I asked him what "open" meant but he couldn't answer me.
It means you can have Comic Sans Serif as your system wide font.
My Nexus 7 has the latest Android update, and it's still lags quite often when scrolling the screen up and down. Once the new iPad's are out, I'll give the Nexus 7 to the cat to play cat games on. He won't mind the lag as much as it bothers me.
wait a minute! my kitty has Paws of Lightning! he's gotta be 10x more sensitive to latency than us ... that would be cruel!
Depending on the application, humans can definitely notice a 100 ms latency, as demonstrated in this rather informative microsoft research video
thanks much. after watching, i tried the only such app i have - PDF Pen - on my trusty iPad 2 and could see the line propagating about 1/2" behind my finger as i drew at a normal quick pace. so yes, it does matter. i plan on getting a new iPad next month, so i'll check that out then and see if there is a noticeable improvement. my wife has our 5s right now, but i'll check that out next.
i can see now that a difference of 50 ms really does make a difference in user experience.