"The billionaire investor believes that a change may be necessary on the board, and he'd prefer to see someone with an investor's point of view providing input at the company. However, Icahn said he's not interested in such a role."
Yeah, no. How the **** would anyone with an "investors point of view" actually have the capability to provide input that is constructive to Apple's long-term success and product quality? What a mind-numbingly short-sighted scum bag this guy is. Apple didn't get to where it is today by following the "investor" point of view. It got to where it is by ignoring almost all of it.
This echo's my sentiments exactly!
Who here thinks he's not just trying to make a quick buck at the expense of Apple and doesn't care if it kills them in the process?
This douchebag needs to disappear! I'd take Warren Buffett's word over this guy any day, and he says Apple's current strategy and buy-back program, under Cook's stewardship is the right way to go!
Icahn can go shove it where the sun don't shine and STFU!
In other words, "I have purchased a whole bunch of your company's shares, and now I want to force you to blow your whole savings to make me even richer". Now is a bad time for a share buyback, because AAPL has been quite strong recently. AAPL should wait for when the stock weakens for the next round of buybacks. Besides which, AAPL can't use its foreign assets for a share buyback, so it would lose a large portion of its assets to taxes to do this, or else spend a fortune in borrowing costs, which would hurt the company's bottom line in the long term. Icahn is known to be a predator who is interested only in his own bottom line.
Good point. But neither Tim nor the Board of Directors own Apple. The shareholders do and they have a right to demand a captial allocation plan that benefits shareholder value.
First of all, this notion that 'shareholders own the company' is an urban myth.
The answer is: No, shareholders do not own the corporation. Rather, they own (or in some cases, temporarily hold) a type of security commonly called stock. Both corporate law and economic reasoning support the limited nature of this ownership, and also undermine the claim that directors should always strive to maximize shareholder value.
When you buy company, you do so in the hope of a return; there is no legal requirement that states you're entitled to it. You do not get partial ownership in the company; you get the chance to earn some money if the company does well. What you have in your eager hands is a lottery ticket, and having a lottery ticket doesn't mean you own a piece of Camelot, and owning shares, despite the name, doesn't mean you own a piece of Apple.
Secondly, it is entirely possible that Apple has a plan for the cash, but chooses to keep it under wraps to maintain a competitive advantage.
What could they possibly need with all that cash? How about their own high-speed comms network for starters.
Having said that, I'd vote for a buyback if it would eventually take the company private. Since this wouldn't happen, I'd vote against.
And I'm perfectly happy for Tim to keep stringing this shyster along with lunch dates if it helps the stock price (as long as Icahn is picking up the meal tab).
But anything that would get the leeches off the company's back would automatically get my vote.
"The billionaire investor believes that a change may be necessary on the board, and he'd prefer to see someone with an investor's point of view providing input at the company. However, Icahn said he's not interested in such a role."
Yeah, no. How the **** would anyone with an "investors point of view" actually have the capability to provide input that is constructive to Apple's long-term success and product quality? What a mind-numbingly short-sighted scum bag this guy is. Apple didn't get to where it is today by following the "investor" point of view. It got to where it is by ignoring almost all of it.
Perhaps Lauren Jobs should write an 'Open Letter' to Tim pointing out she owns 8% of Apple's shares and damn sight more than Icahn and urge him not to give the greedy prick the time of day.
Bill Gross, manager of the world’s largest mutual fund, said fellow billionaire investor Carl Icahn should stop pushing Apple Inc. (AAPL) for additional share buybacks.
“Icahn should leave Apple alone and spend more time like Bill Gates,” Gross, who runs the $250 billion Pimco Total Return Fund (PTTRX) at Pacific Investment Management Co. in Newport Beach, California, wrote in a message on Twitter today. “If Icahn’s so smart, use it to help people not yourself.”
Bravo Bill!
I sincerely wish more people like Bill Gross speak up against this scumbag and give him a crystal clear FU! Better still, I hope some of the devoted and intelligent shareholders of AAPL band together and sue Carl before he goes any further! Don't know if there's any legal grounds to initiate a lawsuit at this juncture, but it would be nice to send that bastard a proactive message!
They would float a bond not get cash from overseas.
Hey, how about you just cash in your AAPL shares and piss off along with Carl?! People like you are the reason good companies go under, and world economies crash.
World doesn't need anymore Wall Scum crackheads running things.
That took almost 20 years... Icahn(t) wants Apple to buy back ? of the company in one day! Apple is already purchasing $100 billion over the next few years, why can't this moron be happy with that? <span style="line-height:1.4em;">If you don't like the way the company is being run, why the f@#k did he invest in the first place?</span>
<span style="line-height:1.4em;">He doesn't give a sh!t about Apple, h</span> e is obviously just trying to grab as much cash from APPL as he can.
Sorry folks, but wish Apple's stock would completely tank to the point that Apple could buy back all their shares and take the company private. This market/investor crap is just getting stupid as far as Apple is concerned and really needs to be taken out of the equation.
He care about Apple only until he cashes out. There rest of the shareholders will end up owning a company with $150 billion in debt. If we have just one economic downturn the shareholders will lose along with Apple.
this is one of the reasons why american market is the most efficient market in the world. if the management doesn't fix the problem, activist shareholders will force them to...
now you can't be sitting on $150B and do nothing about it while it grows. you can't just watch... what is the opportunity cost of that money? it is a lot... apple and shareholders are losing money!
they should have used it to do value adding acquisitions. for example a twitter acquisition would have brought a very nice diversification to apple's offerings. we would not just talk about iPads and iPhones but we would talk about social media, twitter, online advertising as well!
but since they have no clue about how to use that money, the market will educate them.
so folks, all is healthy! don't worry... this will be good for apple and its shareholders. market is doing its magic. that's all!
Do you drive with blinders on as well?
You're saying Apple, one of the MOST successful companies in the whole freaking WORLD doesn't know how to use their liquid capital? Due tell, do you have a little insider puppet at Apple telling you that Tim Cook and his staff don't intend on doing anything over the next 5+ years with those funds?
Apple should be adding value to their products, which in turn add value to their customers, in the end resulting in value to the shareholders. Without value on the consumer-side of the equation, there won't be didly-squat of value for the shareholders.
And as for the market, give me a big fucking break!!! The market, lead by a bunch of thieves like Goldman Sachs and the former Lehman Brothers, are the reason our markets / economies crashed in 2008! And you're saying these shills should educate APPLE?!
I hope the moderators here BAN YOU FOR LIFE, and that you NEVER own any AAPL shares!
all this BS has come about since Steve passed away, so my take on this is that SJ would probably get at least one call a week from some Wall St bigwig, he told his secretary.....don't patch through any of these calls.
So SJ got a reputation on Wall St as being totally unapproachable (even if Oppenheimer wanted to talk to Wall St, SJ being the boss just got his way).
I look at Tim Cook and I just don't see someone with that '****-you' attitude SJ had, Wall St knows this and the dam begins to get cracks.....
So this so called Titan of investing believes that Apple should borrow 150 billion to buy back stock and says it would make sense because they have 147 billion in the bank. Wow! That is some dumb ass sh**. Half of Apples wealth comes from a phone; so how long do you expect that honeymoon to last. Carl is sick. I thought it was a joke. Apparently not.
By the end of the year they will have $180B in cash. In 3 years it will be $330B.
Bottom line is the stock is ridiculously cheap RIGHT NOW. They should take advantage of it. Personally I'd say a $100B buyback is more reasonable.
The cash they have is included with their valuation though. Given that they are valued at $480b right now with I think $123b in assets after liabilities, if they manage to build up another $150b assets, surely that increases their valuation a bit, even though future earnings will have been taken account of to an extent. They might still be valued at $480b if they have $273b in cash but I suspect it would be higher if their earnings kept up. They'd be able to buy back over 50% of their shares with that amount of money if the stock price didn't go up and whatever group of people they awarded the shares to would have complete control over the company.
Buying back the shares helps shareholders who don't sell but it's not much benefit to the company. The share price will go up the more assets they have. Doing a buyback depletes their assets and they have to earn that money back again or their value drops.
AAPL is not undervalued right now. Some people seem to think they should be valued at double the richest oil company despite their revenues coming in below them.
What would work best for Apple IMO is to have investors that are interested in Apple's long term future than short-term profit. Perhaps they could setup some sort of mutual fund and every time an Apple customer buys an Apple product above a certain value, they'd get the option to have an entry into the mutual fund. They wouldn't have to be awarded whole shares as those fluctuate in price but at the time of purchase, their allocation could be worth $100. If the mutual fund increased in value, the customers would benefit.
Apple has over 200 million unit sales per year and 50% of their shares are worth $240b. That's $1200 per unit. So $100 per purchase is enough for 12 purchases before half their shares are spread among customers. Someone who buys an iPhone, an iPad, and a Mac could get a $300 entry into the mutual fund. The actual value could depend on the product bought.
This mutual fund would be the majority shareholder and then the customers who love Apple products would be in control of the company. Not only that, the customers would get a financial reward as they'd get dividend payments that could come in the form of iTunes credit. There could be a condition that they can't sell the shares in a given time period e.g 10 years.
Common sense that people will stop talking to and being interested in each other within the next ten years? No chance. It's conceivable that Facebook might die and Twitter might burn out, but they'll be replaced with other networks just like then replaced Myspace and Friendster.
Doy. And this somehow invalidates my statement? Nice try.
I never said it invalidated anything, you're very sensitive. I just thought, since you're so hot on exposing "lies" round here, that you probably don't want to be saying untrue things.
Look the guy said that a $150B will cause Apple to run out of money which is totally false. They would just float a bond LIKE THEY DID JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.
You are too emotional about Apple. You need to keep emotion out of the equation when you are an investor. The fact is in 5 years Apple will have over $450B if they don't increase the buyback. If there is no clear plan to use the excess cash shareholders are literally losing over $40B a year just from opportunity cost alone.
A buyback is investing in yourself. What other company should Apple invest in instead of Apple?
And what's going to happen after the vulture investors move on to the next company after unloading inflated Apple stock? Long term, they stand to lose a hell of a lot more than $40 billion.
I expect phones to last at least 10 more years if not more. You are acting as if Apple is a company that is about to die. You do realize that Apple generates $50B of free cash flows a year? By the end of the year they will have $180B in cash. In 3 years it will be $330B.
Let's be honest. All tech companies are one misstep away from losing prominence. Look at RIM. They basically created the smartphone market (the blackberry was the iPhone at the turn of the century). When more feature rich phones came along, they failed to adapt. Now they're a joke. Nokia is stuck making Windows phones. IBM couldn't adapt to the new corporate IT paradigm and lost their shirts to Dell. HP hired a dud CEO (Fiorina) and look at them now.
Will any of this happen to Apple? Who knows? Maybe this will be their misstep. Maybe not doing it will be.
Bottom line is every since the buyback plans were revealed the stocked moved from 380 to 530. That's almost a 40% jump. Why? Did earnings blow away expectations? No. New product lines? No. The main reason is because Apple showed they were going to be more shareholder friendly.
Apple introduced the 5s and 5c on Sept 12, AAPL @ ;$ 472, and the stock took a slight drop into the weekend and then dropped to $450 on the following Monday. AAPL was slightly oversold at that point and buying picked up. That Friday the stock had risen $17 that week to $467 and 3 days later it announced that 9 million phones had been sold. AAPL jumped $22 to $489. Things leveled off but then Tim announced that revenue would be at the high end of the forecast. The stock again started going north. Then it was announced that there would be an event on October 22nd. the stock kept going north. ... and then the new iPads etc. were introduced. Lots and lots of things were moving the stock north.
So, please, don't say that nothing eventful happened. It just aint true.
This guy is not a fuckwad, a share buy back is a nofuckingbrainer, apple is not using the cash and the share price is stupidlyfuckinglow. Jobs was a notorious wall st. hater because they fired his ass and so Apple has maintained an anti-wall.st pov in honor of Jobs, but its nonsense. There is absolutely nothing better AAPL can do with $150B than repurchase shares until the stock is over $900. Every share they purchase is being bought from the person most willing to sell it, which is a benefit to every share holder. And AAPL is not a bank. If they want to hold such high cash balances, they should register with FINRA and become a bank.
your true colors come out here.
Look the guy said that a $150B will cause Apple to run out of money which is totally false. They would just float a bond LIKE THEY DID JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.
You are too emotional about Apple. You need to keep emotion out of the equation when you are an investor. The fact is in 5 years Apple will have over $450B if they don't increase the buyback. If there is no clear plan to use the excess cash shareholders are literally losing over $40B a year just from opportunity cost alone.
A buyback is investing in yourself. What other company should Apple invest in instead of Apple?
Your true colours also come out just in a much more sinister and idiotic way, because you've basically admitted to not caring how the company is actually run, so long as it looks after making its shareholders rich. And you keep claiming Apple has "no clear plan" on how to use their cash, do you have any clue how fucking stupid that makes you sound? It makes you sound like one of those Wall Strreet douchebag analysts who continually think they know Apple, their supply chains, finances, and sales better than they do, yet at EVERY turn they're proven WRONG!
And you're damn right I'm emotional here, but not about Apple. I'm emotional against people like you who would see companies such as Apple fail at the drop of a hat, if it meant you and your cohorts could make a quick, big buck off their demise. You don't give a shit about anyone or anything but yourself and your bank account.
Go back to Wall Street where you belong. Hope Tim Cook writes an open letter to Carl and you with a big **** OFF in the body.
Comments
What a piece of shit this fuckwad is.
"The billionaire investor believes that a change may be necessary on the board, and he'd prefer to see someone with an investor's point of view providing input at the company. However, Icahn said he's not interested in such a role."
Yeah, no. How the **** would anyone with an "investors point of view" actually have the capability to provide input that is constructive to Apple's long-term success and product quality? What a mind-numbingly short-sighted scum bag this guy is. Apple didn't get to where it is today by following the "investor" point of view. It got to where it is by ignoring almost all of it.
This echo's my sentiments exactly!
Who here thinks he's not just trying to make a quick buck at the expense of Apple and doesn't care if it kills them in the process?
This douchebag needs to disappear! I'd take Warren Buffett's word over this guy any day, and he says Apple's current strategy and buy-back program, under Cook's stewardship is the right way to go!
Icahn can go shove it where the sun don't shine and STFU!
First of all, this notion that 'shareholders own the company' is an urban myth.
http://www.directorship.com/stout-shareholders-as-owners/
When you buy company, you do so in the hope of a return; there is no legal requirement that states you're entitled to it. You do not get partial ownership in the company; you get the chance to earn some money if the company does well. What you have in your eager hands is a lottery ticket, and having a lottery ticket doesn't mean you own a piece of Camelot, and owning shares, despite the name, doesn't mean you own a piece of Apple.
Secondly, it is entirely possible that Apple has a plan for the cash, but chooses to keep it under wraps to maintain a competitive advantage.
What could they possibly need with all that cash? How about their own high-speed comms network for starters.
Having said that, I'd vote for a buyback if it would eventually take the company private. Since this wouldn't happen, I'd vote against.
And I'm perfectly happy for Tim to keep stringing this shyster along with lunch dates if it helps the stock price (as long as Icahn is picking up the meal tab).
But anything that would get the leeches off the company's back would automatically get my vote.
Well said. I will vote against what he proposes.
Perhaps Lauren Jobs should write an 'Open Letter' to Tim pointing out she owns 8% of Apple's shares and damn sight more than Icahn and urge him not to give the greedy prick the time of day.
Bill Gross, manager of the world’s largest mutual fund, said fellow billionaire investor Carl Icahn should stop pushing Apple Inc. (AAPL) for additional share buybacks.
“Icahn should leave Apple alone and spend more time like Bill Gates,” Gross, who runs the $250 billion Pimco Total Return Fund (PTTRX) at Pacific Investment Management Co. in Newport Beach, California, wrote in a message on Twitter today. “If Icahn’s so smart, use it to help people not yourself.”
Bravo Bill!
I sincerely wish more people like Bill Gross speak up against this scumbag and give him a crystal clear FU! Better still, I hope some of the devoted and intelligent shareholders of AAPL band together and sue Carl before he goes any further! Don't know if there's any legal grounds to initiate a lawsuit at this juncture, but it would be nice to send that bastard a proactive message!
They would float a bond not get cash from overseas.
Hey, how about you just cash in your AAPL shares and piss off along with Carl?! People like you are the reason good companies go under, and world economies crash.
World doesn't need anymore Wall Scum crackheads running things.
He care about Apple only until he cashes out. There rest of the shareholders will end up owning a company with $150 billion in debt. If we have just one economic downturn the shareholders will lose along with Apple.
this is one of the reasons why american market is the most efficient market in the world. if the management doesn't fix the problem, activist shareholders will force them to...
now you can't be sitting on $150B and do nothing about it while it grows. you can't just watch... what is the opportunity cost of that money? it is a lot... apple and shareholders are losing money!
they should have used it to do value adding acquisitions. for example a twitter acquisition would have brought a very nice diversification to apple's offerings. we would not just talk about iPads and iPhones but we would talk about social media, twitter, online advertising as well!
but since they have no clue about how to use that money, the market will educate them.
so folks, all is healthy! don't worry... this will be good for apple and its shareholders. market is doing its magic. that's all!
Do you drive with blinders on as well?
You're saying Apple, one of the MOST successful companies in the whole freaking WORLD doesn't know how to use their liquid capital? Due tell, do you have a little insider puppet at Apple telling you that Tim Cook and his staff don't intend on doing anything over the next 5+ years with those funds?
Apple should be adding value to their products, which in turn add value to their customers, in the end resulting in value to the shareholders. Without value on the consumer-side of the equation, there won't be didly-squat of value for the shareholders.
And as for the market, give me a big fucking break!!! The market, lead by a bunch of thieves like Goldman Sachs and the former Lehman Brothers, are the reason our markets / economies crashed in 2008! And you're saying these shills should educate APPLE?!
I hope the moderators here BAN YOU FOR LIFE, and that you NEVER own any AAPL shares!
all this BS has come about since Steve passed away, so my take on this is that SJ would probably get at least one call a week from some Wall St bigwig, he told his secretary.....don't patch through any of these calls.
So SJ got a reputation on Wall St as being totally unapproachable (even if Oppenheimer wanted to talk to Wall St, SJ being the boss just got his way).
I look at Tim Cook and I just don't see someone with that '****-you' attitude SJ had, Wall St knows this and the dam begins to get cracks.....
Wow! That is some dumb ass sh**.
Half of Apples wealth comes from a phone; so how long do you expect that honeymoon to last.
Carl is sick. I thought it was a joke. Apparently not.
That would be why I put it in quotes.
Common sense.
Doy. And this somehow invalidates my statement? Nice try.
The cash they have is included with their valuation though. Given that they are valued at $480b right now with I think $123b in assets after liabilities, if they manage to build up another $150b assets, surely that increases their valuation a bit, even though future earnings will have been taken account of to an extent. They might still be valued at $480b if they have $273b in cash but I suspect it would be higher if their earnings kept up. They'd be able to buy back over 50% of their shares with that amount of money if the stock price didn't go up and whatever group of people they awarded the shares to would have complete control over the company.
Buying back the shares helps shareholders who don't sell but it's not much benefit to the company. The share price will go up the more assets they have. Doing a buyback depletes their assets and they have to earn that money back again or their value drops.
AAPL is not undervalued right now. Some people seem to think they should be valued at double the richest oil company despite their revenues coming in below them.
What would work best for Apple IMO is to have investors that are interested in Apple's long term future than short-term profit. Perhaps they could setup some sort of mutual fund and every time an Apple customer buys an Apple product above a certain value, they'd get the option to have an entry into the mutual fund. They wouldn't have to be awarded whole shares as those fluctuate in price but at the time of purchase, their allocation could be worth $100. If the mutual fund increased in value, the customers would benefit.
Apple has over 200 million unit sales per year and 50% of their shares are worth $240b. That's $1200 per unit. So $100 per purchase is enough for 12 purchases before half their shares are spread among customers. Someone who buys an iPhone, an iPad, and a Mac could get a $300 entry into the mutual fund. The actual value could depend on the product bought.
This mutual fund would be the majority shareholder and then the customers who love Apple products would be in control of the company. Not only that, the customers would get a financial reward as they'd get dividend payments that could come in the form of iTunes credit. There could be a condition that they can't sell the shares in a given time period e.g 10 years.
I never said it invalidated anything, you're very sensitive. I just thought, since you're so hot on exposing "lies" round here, that you probably don't want to be saying untrue things.
your true colors come out here.
Look the guy said that a $150B will cause Apple to run out of money which is totally false. They would just float a bond LIKE THEY DID JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.
You are too emotional about Apple. You need to keep emotion out of the equation when you are an investor. The fact is in 5 years Apple will have over $450B if they don't increase the buyback. If there is no clear plan to use the excess cash shareholders are literally losing over $40B a year just from opportunity cost alone.
A buyback is investing in yourself. What other company should Apple invest in instead of Apple?
What other company? Tons of them. Some flagship Apple products were purchased from other companies. I think they've spent their money well over the years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Apple
And what's going to happen after the vulture investors move on to the next company after unloading inflated Apple stock? Long term, they stand to lose a hell of a lot more than $40 billion.
I expect phones to last at least 10 more years if not more. You are acting as if Apple is a company that is about to die. You do realize that Apple generates $50B of free cash flows a year? By the end of the year they will have $180B in cash. In 3 years it will be $330B.
Let's be honest. All tech companies are one misstep away from losing prominence. Look at RIM. They basically created the smartphone market (the blackberry was the iPhone at the turn of the century). When more feature rich phones came along, they failed to adapt. Now they're a joke. Nokia is stuck making Windows phones. IBM couldn't adapt to the new corporate IT paradigm and lost their shirts to Dell. HP hired a dud CEO (Fiorina) and look at them now.
Will any of this happen to Apple? Who knows? Maybe this will be their misstep. Maybe not doing it will be.
Bottom line is every since the buyback plans were revealed the stocked moved from 380 to 530. That's almost a 40% jump. Why? Did earnings blow away expectations? No. New product lines? No. The main reason is because Apple showed they were going to be more shareholder friendly.
Apple introduced the 5s and 5c on Sept 12, AAPL @ ;$ 472, and the stock took a slight drop into the weekend and then dropped to $450 on the following Monday. AAPL was slightly oversold at that point and buying picked up. That Friday the stock had risen $17 that week to $467 and 3 days later it announced that 9 million phones had been sold. AAPL jumped $22 to $489. Things leveled off but then Tim announced that revenue would be at the high end of the forecast. The stock again started going north. Then it was announced that there would be an event on October 22nd. the stock kept going north. ... and then the new iPads etc. were introduced. Lots and lots of things were moving the stock north.
So, please, don't say that nothing eventful happened. It just aint true.
And you're damn right I'm emotional here, but not about Apple. I'm emotional against people like you who would see companies such as Apple fail at the drop of a hat, if it meant you and your cohorts could make a quick, big buck off their demise. You don't give a shit about anyone or anything but yourself and your bank account.
Go back to Wall Street where you belong. Hope Tim Cook writes an open letter to Carl and you with a big **** OFF in the body.
Fixed.
But you’re completely wrong about everything else.