ISS recommends against Icahn stock buyback strategy, sides with Apple board

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 51
    foadfoad Posts: 717member
    castcore wrote: »
    You are joking right? Icahn soldnhisbposirion at 350 but bought into nflx huge at 70. Nflx CEO Hastings braced him and took icahns advice. You are joking right about not knowing what he did for nflx?

    It wasn't Icahn's investment that propelled the stock so high. Hell Icahn wasn't even the main proponent of Icahn Enterprises investing - it was his son. Netflix, especially at first, was not happy about his investing. That is why they adopted the poison pill. Netflix's stock wasn't propelled over 500% because of Icahn. You are vastly discrediting what Netflix has done as a business by stating that Icahn had such a massive influence.
  • Reply 22 of 51

    I think Apple should offer an incremental dividend increase program that will keep long term investors longer and attract institutional investors. This has been talked about on cnbc and some articles, but I haven't heard much about it for a while.

  • Reply 23 of 51
    Icahn is not wrong and his request is not unreasonable. Unfortunately he does not have Apple's long term interest at heart.
  • Reply 24 of 51
    misamisa Posts: 827member
    castcore wrote: »
    Look at all the usual Apple bashers like CNBC and other media types who usually Nashe Apple , they all hate the buy back, Should that not tell you something? Icahn got involved with Netflix when it was 60, now 18 months later, it's at 400. Who long term netflix holders rather the stock at 60? The notion that somehow supporting Icahn who thinks Apple is under valued and wants to buy back is somehow bad for long term shareholders is stupid to the core
    That's overlooking when it crashed from like 300 to 60. Bears like to eat short-term traders for breakfast.

    There's few facts in play. US stocks are heavily manipulated by hedge funds and investment banks. They knowingly rob the retail investors (that's you and me) by doing the kind of things Icahn does behind closed doors. It doesn't count as insider trading when you bully the traded company into doing your bidding.

    Icahn can grow up, take his ball and go home if Apple doesn't do what he wants it to do. I want to see him promise apple in writing to not sell his stock in Apple for 15 years if he really believes in Apple. Hell I'd like to see all investment banks and hedge funds make that kind of pledge. These short term flips just make me wonder why anyone would ever hold a US companies stock when it will just be manipulated into bankruptcy by holding onto the debt used to make the buybacks/pay out dividends, and then sold for parts.
  • Reply 25 of 51
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GTR View Post



    Support the interest of long term shareholders, not the short-term shareholder, not the day trader.



    Vote negative and tell iCahn 'iCan't'.



    By the way, it appears a billion dollars can't buy you a decent haircut.




     

    Looks like maybe he had a large holding 20 yrs ago in the "FlowBee"!

     

     

    Takes a while to get use to these modern gizmos. /s

  • Reply 26 of 51
    shard wrote: »
    Icahn is not wrong and his request is not unreasonable. Unfortunately he does not have Apple's long term interest at heart.

    Can you show us why/how it's not unreasonable?
  • Reply 27 of 51
    sog35 wrote: »
    sporlo wrote: »
    I know nothing about stocks or investing, but I've long been confused about why this Icahn guy is being treated any more special than the millions of other Apple investors out there. It sounds like he just likes being heard.

    One of the richest men in the world, a self made billionaire.
    He is averaging an annualized return over 20% the last 10 years.
    Simply one of the best in the biz. Period.

    You bring this up a lot, and are clearly a fan of Icahn.

    Can you please point to a credible, audited set of data that has been filed with some regulatory authority -- under the pain major penalties for lying -- that backs up this claim?

    shard wrote: »
    Icahn is not wrong and his request is not unreasonable. Unfortunately he does not have Apple's long term interest at heart.

    Can you show us why/how it's not unreasonable?

    I never seem to get a reply to these questions from the Icahn-ites. :-/
  • Reply 28 of 51
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post





    One of the richest men in the world, a self made billionaire.

    He is averaging an annualized return over 20% the last 10 years.

    Simply one of the best in the biz. Period.

     

    He might be one of the richest people in the world, but nobody is entirely self made. With that said, he also is not anybody I would want to aspire to. The question for many should be what is he simply the best at? 

     

    He made his money in the eighties as a corporate raider. He would take on debt to buy a controlling interest in a company. He would then place his own directors on the board. He then would have company he took a controlling interest in take on his debt that he used to buy the controlling interest, and he would then strip the company of its most valuable assets. That is not investing in the traditional way people think of investing. He hasn't made his money "investing" in companies he believes in like somebody like Buffet has done. Icahn is a get in quick, take what he can, and get out fast type of guy, and leave others to deal with the rubble. What he does is not investing.

     

    He forced TWA to file bankruptcy after making over $450 million himself, and saddling the airlines with as much in debt. He wanted to break apart Time Warner, after forcing it to buy back shares. He tried to force Yahoo to sell itself to Microsoft. He also was a director at Blockbuster, which we can see how that went.

     

    For long term Apple investors, Icahn is not a friend. Like Netflix, Apple should ignore him entirely.  

  • Reply 29 of 51
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by castcore View Post





    You are joking right? Icahn soldnhisbposirion at 350 but bought into nflx huge at 70. Nflx CEO Hastings braced him and took icahns advice. You are joking right about not knowing what he did for nflx?

    Do you even know what you are talking about? I would love to know what advice Icahn gave Netflix. Now back to reality.

     

    Netflix wanted nothing to do with Icahn. Right after he started buying shares, Netflix's Board of Directors adopted a poison pill resolution to prevent Icahn from gaining any control of the company. 

     

    Icahn's big plan? He wanted Netflix to put itself on the market. Netflix wisely ignored him and adopted the poison pill resolution to shut him out. Here is an article in the Wallstreet Journal entitled, " Carl Icahn’s Valuable Netflix Lesson: Don’t Listen to Carl Icahn."

     

    The premise: Thank goodness for Icahn, Netflix stuck to its business plan, and ignored him. Icahn made tons of money on Netflix despite his trying to undermine the companies leadership by attempting to force it to put itself on the market. Icahn essentially benefitted from Netflix ignoring him. 

  • Reply 30 of 51
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

     

    20% is ridiculously good for the last 10 years considering the major crash in 2007-2009

     

    When you prove yourself as an investment genius for 40+ years and make your clients BILLIONS of dollars then you will get the benefit of the doubt like Ichan.  Till then stop crying like a baby that he gets the praise he deserves and worked hard to achieve.

     

    And its not like all his investments automatically become golden because he buys them and makes it known.  DELL did not do much.


     

    If you successfully go into a store and steal your friends a case of Budweiser, even though you and your friends are happy, should the rest of us congratulate you? The point, the context of one's success should be examined. 

     

    As far as the 20 percent figure goes, that is ridiculously good. However, can you really equate that success as to the same type of investing that regular folks do on the market? If not, is it really fair to compare his earnings to how average people perform on the market? 

     

     He is not merely buying a stock, and waiting for the stock to go up like regular investors do. He is actively trying to control the company, and often forces companies to engage in practices that benefit him at the expense of the long term interests of the companies he so called invests in.  

  • Reply 31 of 51
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

     

    All the airlines were F'uped in the 80's.  They were all going to go bankrupt because of stupid business decisions.

     

    Ichan Enterprises LLP has a return of 631% over the last 10 years (2004-2013).

    To say he doesn't know the stockmarket is idiotic.


     

     

    I never said he doesn't know the stock market, and I don't keep throwing out percentages of returns as if that somehow means something to long term Apple investors. If percentages impress you though, I put all my investments in Apple right out of college in Apple at about $15 a share. The stock split twice and is now trading at over $500 dollars a share. Perhaps, you should be listening to me as my percentage of success outweighs Icahn's. I also didn't have to work as hard for my return as Icahn. My only regret is I did not have more funds at the time to sink into Apple. 

     

    I know facts bore you, but go read up on TWA. Carl bankrupted the airlines by saddling it with over 450 million in debt and stripping it of its most valuable assets. 

  • Reply 32 of 51
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    sog35 wrote: »
    Regular investors can buy the stocks he buys or invest in his company.

    Break news: Icahn has dropped his proposal.  He is happy and satisfied with the $14B Apple has recently bought back and won't fight the board over the his $50B proposal.

    Happy and satisfied would be overstating it:
    http://www.shareholderssquaretable.com/our-letter-to-apple-shareholders/
  • Reply 33 of 51
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

     
     

    You bring this up a lot, and are clearly a fan of Icahn.



    Can you please point to a credible, audited set of data that has been filed with some regulatory authority -- under the pain major penalties for lying -- that backs up this claim?

     

    Unless the guy can provide what you ask for, it is OK for us to believe anything we want about iCon!

  • Reply 34 of 51
    So he withdrew but we still don't know anything right? All hail Carl the genius...

    This is where the yeah but 'Carl knows what's best' post come out.
  • Reply 35 of 51
    sog35 wrote: »
    You bring this up a lot, and are clearly a fan of Icahn.


    Can you please point to a credible, audited set of data that has been filed with some regulatory authority -- under the pain major penalties for lying -- that backs up this claim?

    Credible source?  Ok.

    I give you Ichan Enterprises LP - which is publicly traded and audited by the SEC.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=IEP+Historical+Prices

    On Jan 2004 it was $16.
    On Dec 2013 it was $117.
    Thats a 631% return in 10 years.
    22% annualized return in 10 years.
    The man kicks azz in the stock market. PERIOD.

    Ah, I thought you might bring that up. Spurious for a number of reasons. I'll reply in detail later today (unfortunately, I am caught up with all sorts of throughout today, so I will get to it late afternoon). Promise.
  • Reply 36 of 51
    focherfocher Posts: 687member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post





    One of the richest men in the world, a self made billionaire.

    He is averaging an annualized return over 20% the last 10 years.

    Simply one of the best in the biz. Period.

     

    There is such a fundamental flaw in that reasoning. An investor's direct interest is in maximizing the share value. Running a company in the optimum way does not equate directly to share value, which is defined by people guessing what the share value should be. To run a company based on an investor's direct interest is totally flawed and a terrible practice.

     

    Some of us choose to invest in companies that are optimally run, but don't assume that the immediate share value represents the true value. We believe that over the long term, the share value will represent the true value. 

  • Reply 37 of 51
    focherfocher Posts: 687member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Retrogusto View Post

     

    He has bought more than $3.5 billion dollars' worth of shares in the company, so he owns a decent chunk of it. A bit less than 1%, but if my math and data are right, that's still a lot more than, say, Tim Cook (a little over $45 million). Since he is also widely regarded as a shrewd investor, his advice regarding how Apple should invest its (and partly "his") money carries some weight.

     


    I agree it carries weight. It makes many of us want to have Apple do the opposite. Why? Because Icahn wants Apple to do whatever maximizes his share value. I want Apple to do what's best to create and sell great products. Why? Because when they do this it ensures the long term maximization of the share value. Icahn misses a step in the middle. He's never been interested in that step. That's why he's nothing more than leech. 

  • Reply 38 of 51
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

     

    Regular investors can buy the stocks he buys or invest in his company.

     

    Break news: Icahn has dropped his proposal.  He is happy and satisfied with the $14B Apple has recently bought back and won't fight the board over the his $50B proposal.


     

     

    You mean Icahn is happy Apple didn't allocate any more money to date for a stock buy back? Apple merely bought more stock back it already intended to buy back when it had an opportunity? Right.  Perhaps, it is because two of APple's long term institutional investors did not back Icahn. 

  • Reply 39 of 51
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    sudonym wrote: »
    Unless the guy can provide what you ask for, it is OK for us to believe anything we want about iCon!
    Not a very well chosen slur.

    ICon-SteveJobs_Cover.jpg
  • Reply 40 of 51
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

    Credible source?  Ok.

     

    I give you Ichan Enterprises LP - which is publicly traded and audited by the SEC.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=IEP+Historical+Prices

     

    On Jan 2004 it was $16.

    On Dec 2013 it was $117.

    Thats a 631% return in 10 years.

    22% annualized return in 10 years.

    The man kicks azz in the stock market. PERIOD.


    Taken by itself, that sure does sound impressive. But the problem is, it just cherry-picks  a random starting point that is tilted in Icahn’s favor. Moreover, it provides no benchmark.

     

    Here’s a comparison of IEP to AAPL, for various periods (all data from Yahoo!Finance for IEP v. AAPL):

     

    Return since Jan 2001:

    IEP +1027%

    AAPL +5500%

     

    10-year return:

    IEP +564%

    AAPL +4500%

     

    7-year return:

    IEP –1.15%

    AAPL: +510%

     

    5-year return:

    IEP +224%

    AAPL +425%

     

    Which stock would you have rather owned? Indeed, who should be giving advice to whom? IEP to AAPL or the other way around?

     

    In fact, if you were unlucky enough to buy IEP at the end of 2006, you paid ~$130 for the stock. It’s worth $109 today. Over the next couple of years years (from 2006), his stock fell from $135 to ~$35 and noodled around that level until end-2012. (I am surprised that someone didn’t kick him out of his Wall Street job during that period). It’s only since the first quarter of 2013 that his stock started to zoom up. He got lucky with a couple of his holdings.

     

    The trouble with you guys is you confuse luck with skill.

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