Apple to stick with Samsung for A8 chip, final manufacturing prep underway - report

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  • Reply 21 of 64
    seanie248seanie248 Posts: 181member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BobJohnson View Post

     

     

    "Fall" is 3 months long, and Apple usually waits about a month between introducing an iPhone and shipping. Maybe you need to readjust your own "common senses," because that doesn't seem out of line to me. 


    what has "fall" or any time of the year got to do with this? My point was AI writing that Samsung intend to ship around the same time as Apple unveils the new iPhone. Its still a stupid (and pointless) thing to say. Surely it would be more normal to say SS instead to ship the chip a few weeks (or months or whatever) before the iPhone is unveiled? If it was up to me though, I wouldn't put it in at all. Its redundant.

  • Reply 22 of 64
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    bobjohnson wrote: »
    "Fall" is 3 months long, and Apple usually waits about a month between introducing an iPhone and shipping. Maybe you need to readjust your own "common senses," because that doesn't seem out of line to me. 

    Apple usually announces/ ships near the end of October (4-6 weeks into Fall). How long does it take to make the chips and how long does it take to put them in an iPhone and how long does it take to make 10-15 MM iPhones by the beginning of sales?
  • Reply 23 of 64
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by asdasd View Post





    Probably not. They hardly entered into a 7-8 year contract. It's all about ability to scale.



    If Apple want to move away from S it should look at intel.

    No they likely did not enter into a 7-8 year contract. however they may have entered into a 3 year contract when they were dealing with the A6 to handle the A6, A7 and A8. I do also agree with you that scalability is also a major factor. I'd think it's likely a little of both, they may still be under some contract with them, as well as they still have concerns with TSMC's ability to scale capacity.

     

    Lastly I agree that if Apple is looking to ditch Samsung, Intel will likely end up in the mix. However that isn't a decision Apple can make and it up to Intel to decided if they are willing to be a foundry for 3rd party chip designs. I have hopes with the move Intel has made with Altera that they may be signaling to Apple they are willing to re-think their stance on only producing chips based on Intel architecture. I'm sure they are not sitting by with their heads in the sand watching quarter after quarter of PC sales declining while mobile devices increase, not thinking "hey we have nearly zero market share in what is replacing the cow were milking".

  • Reply 24 of 64
    herbapouherbapou Posts: 2,228member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

    With all the margin pressures apple is seeing price would be king. It will be interesting if Apple began moving away from Intel on the MacBook to the A8, now that it is 64 bit.

     

    I think Apple will launch something new using the A8, but. imo,  the mac's will stay with intel for now. I think they will build something between tablets and laptops, or an ipad pro if you like.

  • Reply 25 of 64
    andysolandysol Posts: 2,506member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post



    It sounds like Samsung just bends over further than TSMC. The only way Apple will stay is if the pricing is extremely better, or they ran into some technical issues with TSMC.

    I think that plays the bigger role.  TSMC just screwed up massively with Asus

  • Reply 26 of 64
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,043member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rob53 View Post

     

    Just because a reported Samsung official says they still are building the A8 doesn't mean they are or that TSMC isn't. Who do you believe, Samsung or TSMC? Everything related to the A8 has been rumors and until it's actually built, we won't know for sure and even then we might not know everything about who and where it's being manufactured.


    good point since we all know Apple will never say one way or another. I starting to believe the mere fact that Apple does not confirm or deny any such rumors allows companies to make claims which they know Apple will not say anything about. They all know that later that people will forget the claims they made since they moved on to make new claims that everyone is now interested in.

  • Reply 27 of 64
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,378member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post



    It sounds like Samsung just bends over further than TSMC. The only way Apple will stay is if the pricing is extremely better, or they ran into some technical issues with TSMC.



    With all the margin pressures apple is seeing price would be king. It will be interesting if Apple began moving away from Intel on the MacBook to the A8, now that it is 64 bit.

     

    A challenge with replacing Intel with an A# chip in Macs is that backwards compatibility with Intel programs will require emulation, and emulation speeds might not be that great. In the past when Apple has changed CPU architectures (680x0 to PPC; PPC to Intel), the architecture Apple was moving to was substantially more powerful than the one it was leaving, meaning that the emulation penalty felt by end-users wasn't too horrible. But if Apple moves from Intel to their own chips in the Mac, it will be more for reasons of cost than performance, meaning that there won't be much of a performance gain to hide the emulation penalty. 

     

    Given all that, I think that if Apple were to use A# chips for something other than iDevices, the first use might be in Apple's own data centers. Presumably Apple is using Xeons in its servers, and Xeons are very expensive. Replacing Xeons with a server-oriented version of the A# chips (say, 8 cyclone cores on a die; no GPU; bigger cache; support for ECC RAM) could be a good way to save money, and there wouldn't be an emulation penalty, since presumably Apple would be in a position to recompile all relevant software for the new chip. 

     

    Once Apple has A# chips running on its servers, perhaps a new high-end service for Pro users could be introduced that would allow users to run software on Apple's servers. Initially the only people who would use such a service would be people who can compile their own code. But in time, the service could be expanded as more software is ported to A# chips. Gradually, we might reach a point where so much software has been recompiled to run on A# chips, that Apple could make the switch in Macs. 

  • Reply 28 of 64
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,570member
    I would just like to know why no one can seem to get this right.
  • Reply 29 of 64
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,570member
    blastdoor wrote: »
    A challenge with replacing Intel with an A# chip in Macs is that backwards compatibility with Intel programs will require emulation, and emulation speeds might not be that great. In the past when Apple has changed CPU architectures (680x0 to PPC; PPC to Intel), the architecture Apple was moving to was substantially more powerful than the one it was leaving, meaning that the emulation penalty felt by end-users wasn't too horrible. But if Apple moves from Intel to their own chips in the Mac, it will be more for reasons of cost than performance, meaning that there won't be much of a performance gain to hide the emulation penalty. 

    Given all that, I think that if Apple were to use A# chips for something other than iDevices, the first use might be in Apple's own data centers. Presumably Apple is using Xeons in its servers, and Xeons are very expensive. Replacing Xeons with a server-oriented version of the A# chips (say, 8 cyclone cores on a die; no GPU; bigger cache; support for ECC RAM) could be a good way to save money, and there wouldn't be an emulation penalty, since presumably Apple would be in a position to recompile all relevant software for the new chip. 

    Once Apple has A# chips running on its servers, perhaps a new high-end service for Pro users could be introduced that would allow users to run software on Apple's servers. Initially the only people who would use such a service would be people who can compile their own code. But in time, the service could be expanded as more software is ported to A# chips. Gradually, we might reach a point where so much software has been recompiled to run on A# chips, that Apple could make the switch in Macs. 

    It would be a lot easier to replace the chip in a Macbook Air than a Xeon in a server. The A7 is already as powerful as the i3 in a two year old Macbook Air. What will the A8 be? Emulation does require a much more powerful chain than the one being emulated. But it's not that simple.

    That assumes two different off the shelf chips. But that's not the story for Apple. They highly customize their ARM chips, using the architectural license they have from ARM. Math routines used in x86 chips aren't patented. It's some of those routines that cause emulation slowdowns. If Apple really wanted to, they could add the circuits to their own chip for those routines, and use them during the emulation process. Will they do this? Who knows? But they can.
  • Reply 30 of 64
    mj webmj web Posts: 918member
    If this comes back to bite Apple in the ass -- like if Samsung steals Apple's IP, blows a critical deadline, or sabotages the A8 in any way -- Apple will have no one to blame but itself. Hope I'm wrong but I can smell trouble coming a year away!
  • Reply 31 of 64
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jungmark View Post





    Apple usually announces/ ships near the end of October (4-6 weeks into Fall). How long does it take to make the chips and how long does it take to put them in an iPhone and how long does it take to make 10-15 MM iPhones by the beginning of sales?

     

    With the iPhone 5 (2012) and the iPhone 5s (2013) Apple made the announcement in early/mid-September and released about 10 days later.  The only iPhone ever released in October was the 4S.

  • Reply 32 of 64
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,776member
    melgross wrote: »
    I would just like to know why no one can seem to get this right.

    Maybe it's a decoy. Apple will be using the A9, A10 or whatever and they are being made elsewhere and the A8 is just a temporary chip ... Oh well just dreaming ... :)
  • Reply 33 of 64
    arlorarlor Posts: 532member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post



    If this comes back to bite Apple in the ass -- like if Samsung steals Apple's IP, blows a critical deadline, or sabotages the A8 in any way -- Apple will have no one to blame but itself. Hope I'm wrong but I can smell trouble coming a year away!

     

    I can't recall even a whiff of evidence that Samsung's semiconductor division has stolen any Apple IP, sabotaged any Apple products, or blown any Apple-set deadlines. Apple wouldn't keep going back to Samsung if that was happening. I think Tim knows what he's doing.

  • Reply 34 of 64
    What's this? Rumors contradicting other rumors? How can that be if rumors are akin to unconditional truth? :)
  • Reply 35 of 64
    realisticrealistic Posts: 1,154member

    I have complete confidence, in regards to this manufacturing situation, that Apple will do what is best for Apple. Remember the old adage "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

  • Reply 36 of 64
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    melgross wrote: »
    I would just like to know why no one can seem to get this right.

    Reporting it, the sources, or do you mean anyone other than Samsung being able to fab Apple's A-series chips?
  • Reply 37 of 64
    sudonymsudonym Posts: 233member

    I never buy anything from Samsung because they are immoral.  Apple is doing the right thing by trying their level best to make Samsung-free products.  The sooner, the better.

  • Reply 38 of 64
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     

    ‘Kay.

     

    Why has no one been fired over this?

    Why has no one been investigated over this?

    Why have we seen no punishment done to anyone?

     

    Why is TSMC allowed to keep explicitly lying to boost their stock? 


    Welcome to Foreign Equity Markets.

    As little oversight that NASD and SEC, and DoJ have over US companies to prosecute  this sort of stuff,  over there, it's business as usual, if you pay off the right people.

  • Reply 39 of 64
    thttht Posts: 5,530member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jack Baker View Post

     

    Disappointing that it is taking Apple so long to extricate itself from this lying, thieving, cheating scumbag of a company.


     

    It's in Apple's best interests to have multiple suppliers for their components. Eg, they have 3 for displays, and Samsung is one of them. The CPU is one of the few where they don't have multiple suppliers for a component, on their handheld, laps and desktop computers actually. If Samsung has a production 20 nm fab ready, go for it.

  • Reply 40 of 64
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member

    Were Apple to change chips again, it would be easier. The way to not worry about emulation is to use the built in app universal library packaging from AppKit/Mach-o. 

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_binary#NeXTSTEP_Multi-Architecture_Binaries

     

    The executable can be built FAT ( all executables for iOS are built fat if they have to handle the different versions of ARM or ARM64, which most do). There were FAT builds for PPC and Intel.

     

    I don’t see a modern need for Rossetta were there any change. Just announce the chip change a few months, or a year in advance, and ask devs to build FAT for a few months before the actual hardware release to guarantee getting into the App Store.

     

    That’s most of your applications, and any stragglers have to be downloaded from the web, but in the modern OS they won’t automatically run anyway, unless you reduce security in System Preferences. So for most people, except expert users who turn the security options off , downloads from the App Store will be FAT downloads and will run on all architectures. Everybody else can take their chances.

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