Wow! I have rarely used Pages for anything other than opening Word docs so I really don't know much about it, but you honestly put it in the same category as inDesign? Perhaps it is one of those situations where Pages does 100% of what 80% of users need. inDesign is a really powerful application and I know it inside and out, which took years of constant use and study. I really don't have any reference point to compare it to Pages because I don't know anything about Pages.
I think that's the case. For most folks, it'll cover most of what people need it to do. I think when you start looking at advanced features, InDesign is a whole different animal.
The thing is that as of right now I don't think Apple cares about that. Microsoft releasing Office on the iPad has that covered. I don't think Apple is even competing with Microsoft for enterprise customers in mobile, which is where the main part of Apple's business is. Apple and Microsoft are actually pretty solid allies. I don't think Apple is actually interested in sticking it to Microsoft. I think they are more interested in sticking it to Google. iWork is actually getting pretty solid, especially the web apps. I think sooner than later, they will far surpass than Google Docs.
I see your point, but if you don't care about being in the corporate environment, then why is it even called iWork? Sure the solo entrepreneur might not need to be compatible with other business professionals but is that niche enough to even develop iWork? I think they need to be compatible with Office for maximum penetration into the corporate/education environment. Apple is strong with consumers, but do consumers really need any productivity office apps? Party invitations, garage sale flyers, etc. Is that really a reasonable target market for an office suite? I think Apple wants a piece of corporate in the worst way. Why totally relinquish that to MS?.
I see your point, but if you don't care about being in the corporate environment, then why is it even called iWork? Sure the solo entrepreneur might not need to be compatible with other business professionals but is that niche enough to even develop iWork? I think they need to be compatible with Office for maximum penetration into the corporate/education environment. Apple is strong with consumers, but do consumers really need any productivity office apps. Party invitations, garage sale flyers, etc. Is that really a reasonable target market for an office suite? I think Apple wants a piece of corporate in the worst way.
I agree that they wouldn't mind more of corporate but it would require a massive effort to build out a suite and even larger effort to sway enterprise clients away from Office, and even then, I don't think there would be any guarantee of any significant improvement to their bottom line. I also see it as a distraction. I agree that have more document parity with Microsoft docs would be a great help to us users but I think Apple can do just fine by having a consumer friendly office suite and Microsoft having the enterprise customers.
One comment: "Those people who incessantly bitched about Apple "neutering" iWork should humbly eat their words..."
Well, as big an iWork fan as I am, I'd not necessarily blast all such complaints. If the new iWork suddenly dropped some favorite features, an honest complaint of "Hey, this $&#@ new version dropped some favorite features!" is just being, well, honest (and human : ). There really wasn't any warning from Apple about the losses, either, and that's not a good thing.
At the same time, though, those unhappy folk should indeed acknowledge that the lost features are indeed coming back (so far...), and should agree that Apple doesn't appear to be hell-bent on screwing its customers or forcing Steve to roll in his grave or whatever some of the sillier complaints claim. I think we're of the same thought there!
Another comment: "...but until Page Layout mode returns to Pages, I'll continue to use the pre-neutered version "
Page Layout mode is alive and well in Pages! Go to Document settings, the Document tab, and uncheck "Document Body". Done!
It's hard to discover, and I'd like to see Apple make it much more obvious. But that aside, I think the new implementation is an improvement. It means you can easily convert a document from normal to Page Layout, or vice-versa. I like!
Awesome updates. Those people who incessantly bitched about Apple "neutering" iWork should humbly eat their words, considering the pace that Apple is improving the suite- which is already more powerful than the version it replaced.
Are you kidding me? You still can't Merge data with mail, contacts, or spreadsheets. Applescript support is still gutted. The tickers instead of sliders for spacing control is still inefficient. You can't call up extra inspectors (not holding my breath on this one). There are still no envelope or invitation templates (not much use without Merge). I appreciate what they're trying to do, and it's getting better, but Pages '09 still trumps the new versions. My wife teaches Kindergarten, and the Merge function routinely saved her valuable time. Don't believe the hype, they still have a long way to go. How about holding Apple's feet to the fire instead of applauding them for a very minor update that still doesn't achieve parity with legacy versions?
I agree that they wouldn't mind more of corporate but it would require a massive effort to build out a suite and even larger effort to sway enterprise clients away from Office, and even then, I don't think there would be any guarantee of any significant improvement to their bottom line.
Having parity with Office is certainly not setting the bar very hgh. It would likely involve an Office compatibility mode so that iWork could excel to even exceed Office capabilities in it's own native format. For example, I really like some of the layout and formatting features of Numbers much better than Excel but the formula compatibility needs improvement. I would like the best of each platform merged together while retaining Office compatibility even if it means downgrading some features upon export to MS Office formats. In that way iWork might even become the preferred platform in corporate.
Having parity with Office is certainly not setting the bar very hgh. It would likely involve an Office compatibility mode so that iWork could excel to even exceed Office capabilities in it's own native format. For example, I really like some of the layout and formatting features of Numbers much better than Excel but the formula compatibility needs improvement. I would like the best of each platform merged together while retaining Office compatibility even if it means downgrading some features upon export to MS Office formats. In that way iWork might even become the preferred platform in corporate.
I totally see where you're coming from and I'm not disputing the value to users, including myself, but I don't think it would sell any additional hardware compared to the current strategy.
The thing is...enterprise is the biggest pain the ass. Large orgs that are tied to Office wouldn't see the benefit of switching tens of thousands of users to iWork. Purchasing cycles are crazy long, infruriatingly complicated and downright annoying. It would take an insane amount of energy and focus for Apple to even get the conversation started, with no realistic financial upside. Microsoft fills the gap better than Apple could because that is what they do...large scale enterprise software, and all the while Apple will benefit from the old guard seeing iPads as a viable mobile product now that the software they know is now on the hardware they really like.
totally see where you're coming from and I'm not disputing the value to users, including myself, but I don't think it would sell any additional hardware compared to the current strategy.
I imagine that it would be like how it turned out with browsers. Nobody cares which browser you use now. I would like to see the same thing with office apps. They all read and write a standard format.
Pages is still not usable. Apple you have really dropped the ball on the usability front here. In particular, you need to reenable us to make multiple selections at once via command-selecting various selections to make formats over many areas at once. This is a huge oversight and one that many of us frequently used. Not a hard function to implement and this needs to be back in here ASAP.
You certainly don't have a UX background to say what you're saying there. Pages is still quite the hot mess and needs a lot of help. I am having to stick with '09 until they sort out some serious issues. One of the funniest and silliest ones is simply not being able to command-select multiple selections at one time as before. Something we used constantly and is sorely missed.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out how to add a Table of Contents to a Pages document either on the Cloud or on my iPad. Is there an option to do so that I am unable to find, or is it simply not there?
Awesome updates. Those people who incessantly bitched about Apple "neutering" iWork should humbly eat their words, considering the pace that Apple is improving the suite- which is already more powerful than the version it replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
And I would imagine for most people (non-enterprise) the free iWork suite will more than meet their needs. Personally I think this is a big FU to everyone who assumed once these programs became free Apple would have no incentive to update them or make them better.
Actually, the "big FU" would be for those Apple apologists who insisted that those "neutered" versions of the applications were just fine when they were first released and that Apple didn't have to do anything more. And this was before Apple made their public announcement committing to adding back many of the features that were removed -- another "big FU" to Apple apologists. Would Apple have bothered to make such a public announcement, or bothered to add back those features at all and at such a pace, if absolutely nobody complained in the first place? I guess we'll never know. But I wouldn't want to take the chance.
By the way, these same people who defended the new iWork missing all those features would have no right criticizing Microsoft Office for iPad for missing so many features when it was released. In fact, I would expect these people to come to Microsoft's defense with all the same arguments they provided in defense of Apple. But I think we know how this will really play out.
Awesome updates. Those people who incessantly bitched about Apple "neutering" iWork should humbly eat their words, considering the pace that Apple is improving the suite- which is already more powerful than the version it replaced.
The updates ARE awesome and coming faster then before they ripped the shit out of the applications ... HOWEVER, have they really got the applications back to what they could do before they neutered??? Let's see that happen, and then I'll cheer...
In addition, while the apps don't need to do everything MS Office can do, they still are missing a few key features that hobble them for use in higher education and for some broad aspects of enterprise use. MS Office is too overblown and a complicated mess, but iWorks is still missing some needed meat.
I believe Apple will build up the touch version of iWorks to where it will be optimized beautifully for mouse AND touch. At the same time I think MS Office will evolve into a worse version for touch while remaining a tough row to hoe for the average user. Remember, MS Word once fit on a single floppy disc, and everything after that was tacked on and added to, as an "as needed" kludge-patch job. Efforts to "fix" the UI, only made the UI harder to use.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out how to add a Table of Contents to a Pages document either on the Cloud or on my iPad. Is there an option to do so that I am unable to find, or is it simply not there?
It's simply not there. A Table of Contents is one of the most asked for feature for Pages. Without it, the application is neutered as a solid replacement to MS Office in higher education.
Actually, the "big FU" would be for those Apple apologists who insisted that those "neutered" versions of the applications were just fine when they were first released and that Apple didn't have to do anything more. And this was before Apple made their public announcement committing to adding back many of the features that were removed -- another "big FU" to Apple apologists. Would Apple have bothered to make such a public announcement, or bothered to add back those features at all and at such a pace, if absolutely nobody complained in the first place? I guess we'll never know. But I wouldn't want to take the chance.
By the way, these same people who defended the new iWork missing all those features would have no right criticizing Microsoft Office for iPad for missing so many features when it was released. In fact, I would expect these people to come to Microsoft's defense with all the same arguments they provided in defense of Apple. But I think we know how this will really play out.
Reasonable folks didn't say that things were just fine, but Apple has time and time again exhibited the same pattern with massive code rewrites or architectural shifts. They will do a ground up rewrite of something in order to have a solid and modern foundation, and then build on top of that. They did it with OS X, moving to Intel, Quicktime, Final Cut Pro and now with iWork.
While Apple is pretty good at is transitions, it doesn't always go as planned. Sure, Apple should have communicated better their roadmap for the new iWork suite, but I don't think what we are seeing now is a knee jerk reaction to public sentiment. It takes a lot of planning and work to add the features you are seeing. I think what they are trying to do with iWork is insanely complicated and it takes time. iWork is being simultaneously developed across three platforms with differing UX conventions and there is a fair amount of feature parity across all three platforms. Frankly, I think their approach while not always handled properly is the right approach.
I totally see where you're coming from and I'm not disputing the value to users, including myself, but I don't think it would sell any additional hardware compared to the current strategy.
The thing is...enterprise is the biggest pain the ass. Large orgs that are tied to Office wouldn't see the benefit of switching tens of thousands of users to iWork. Purchasing cycles are crazy long, infruriatingly complicated and downright annoying. It would take an insane amount of energy and focus for Apple to even get the conversation started, with no realistic financial upside. Microsoft fills the gap better than Apple could because that is what they do...large scale enterprise software, and all the while Apple will benefit from the old guard seeing iPads as a viable mobile product now that the software they know is now on the hardware they really like.
At one time enterprise used Quark or Pagemaker for complicated documents and Word for simple docs. The former got ridiculously expensive and more omplicated to use, while Word got more of the DTP features and wasn't that expensive for large-scale purchases. Now, however, iWorks is free with iDevices, doesn't require an annual subscription cost, is optimized for touch devices, can be handled easily with large-scale free upgrades, and while simpler to use due to lack of many features (some additional, highly needed), lowers training costs. iWorks offers group collaboration via the iCloud, and is compatible with MS Word doc and docx.
Apple has an unspoken plan to really diminish the standardization on MS Office, and they may get it done before MS wakes up from it's fourteen-year-long slumber.
Comments
I think that's the case. For most folks, it'll cover most of what people need it to do. I think when you start looking at advanced features, InDesign is a whole different animal.
I see your point, but if you don't care about being in the corporate environment, then why is it even called iWork? Sure the solo entrepreneur might not need to be compatible with other business professionals but is that niche enough to even develop iWork? I think they need to be compatible with Office for maximum penetration into the corporate/education environment. Apple is strong with consumers, but do consumers really need any productivity office apps? Party invitations, garage sale flyers, etc. Is that really a reasonable target market for an office suite? I think Apple wants a piece of corporate in the worst way. Why totally relinquish that to MS?.
I agree that they wouldn't mind more of corporate but it would require a massive effort to build out a suite and even larger effort to sway enterprise clients away from Office, and even then, I don't think there would be any guarantee of any significant improvement to their bottom line. I also see it as a distraction. I agree that have more document parity with Microsoft docs would be a great help to us users but I think Apple can do just fine by having a consumer friendly office suite and Microsoft having the enterprise customers.
Pages: Bezier Shapes
Numbers: Categories
The first made Pages a superior creation tool for montages and collages -- better than some $300 standalone apps.
The second allowed creation of complex spreadsheets with the equivalent of Excel pivot tables.
To be fair, the new MS offerings for iOS have support for neither.
Well, as big an iWork fan as I am, I'd not necessarily blast all such complaints. If the new iWork suddenly dropped some favorite features, an honest complaint of "Hey, this $&#@ new version dropped some favorite features!" is just being, well, honest (and human : ). There really wasn't any warning from Apple about the losses, either, and that's not a good thing.
At the same time, though, those unhappy folk should indeed acknowledge that the lost features are indeed coming back (so far...), and should agree that Apple doesn't appear to be hell-bent on screwing its customers or forcing Steve to roll in his grave or whatever some of the sillier complaints claim. I think we're of the same thought there!
Another comment: "...but until Page Layout mode returns to Pages, I'll continue to use the pre-neutered version
Page Layout mode is alive and well in Pages! Go to Document settings, the Document tab, and uncheck "Document Body". Done!
It's hard to discover, and I'd like to see Apple make it much more obvious. But that aside, I think the new implementation is an improvement. It means you can easily convert a document from normal to Page Layout, or vice-versa. I like!
Awesome updates. Those people who incessantly bitched about Apple "neutering" iWork should humbly eat their words, considering the pace that Apple is improving the suite- which is already more powerful than the version it replaced.
Are you kidding me? You still can't Merge data with mail, contacts, or spreadsheets. Applescript support is still gutted. The tickers instead of sliders for spacing control is still inefficient. You can't call up extra inspectors (not holding my breath on this one). There are still no envelope or invitation templates (not much use without Merge). I appreciate what they're trying to do, and it's getting better, but Pages '09 still trumps the new versions. My wife teaches Kindergarten, and the Merge function routinely saved her valuable time. Don't believe the hype, they still have a long way to go. How about holding Apple's feet to the fire instead of applauding them for a very minor update that still doesn't achieve parity with legacy versions?
Merge. That's the biggest deal-breaker I know of.
Look under the File menu.
Having parity with Office is certainly not setting the bar very hgh. It would likely involve an Office compatibility mode so that iWork could excel to even exceed Office capabilities in it's own native format. For example, I really like some of the layout and formatting features of Numbers much better than Excel but the formula compatibility needs improvement. I would like the best of each platform merged together while retaining Office compatibility even if it means downgrading some features upon export to MS Office formats. In that way iWork might even become the preferred platform in corporate.
I totally see where you're coming from and I'm not disputing the value to users, including myself, but I don't think it would sell any additional hardware compared to the current strategy.
The thing is...enterprise is the biggest pain the ass. Large orgs that are tied to Office wouldn't see the benefit of switching tens of thousands of users to iWork. Purchasing cycles are crazy long, infruriatingly complicated and downright annoying. It would take an insane amount of energy and focus for Apple to even get the conversation started, with no realistic financial upside. Microsoft fills the gap better than Apple could because that is what they do...large scale enterprise software, and all the while Apple will benefit from the old guard seeing iPads as a viable mobile product now that the software they know is now on the hardware they really like.
I imagine that it would be like how it turned out with browsers. Nobody cares which browser you use now. I would like to see the same thing with office apps. They all read and write a standard format.
Here are the features I miss most that used to be in OSX. iWork:
Pages: Bezier Shapes
Confused?
The New Pages currently has that. (and has since it launched I believe)
The 3rd line option (single curve) - rounded rectangle - and finally draw with pen gets you any shape you could ever want.
perhaps you don't know you can click and drag with pen to make the points rounded?
Or maybe the is a specific shape you were using?
You certainly don't have a UX background to say what you're saying there. Pages is still quite the hot mess and needs a lot of help. I am having to stick with '09 until they sort out some serious issues. One of the funniest and silliest ones is simply not being able to command-select multiple selections at one time as before. Something we used constantly and is sorely missed.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out how to add a Table of Contents to a Pages document either on the Cloud or on my iPad. Is there an option to do so that I am unable to find, or is it simply not there?
Awesome updates. Those people who incessantly bitched about Apple "neutering" iWork should humbly eat their words, considering the pace that Apple is improving the suite- which is already more powerful than the version it replaced.
And I would imagine for most people (non-enterprise) the free iWork suite will more than meet their needs. Personally I think this is a big FU to everyone who assumed once these programs became free Apple would have no incentive to update them or make them better.
Actually, the "big FU" would be for those Apple apologists who insisted that those "neutered" versions of the applications were just fine when they were first released and that Apple didn't have to do anything more. And this was before Apple made their public announcement committing to adding back many of the features that were removed -- another "big FU" to Apple apologists. Would Apple have bothered to make such a public announcement, or bothered to add back those features at all and at such a pace, if absolutely nobody complained in the first place? I guess we'll never know. But I wouldn't want to take the chance.
By the way, these same people who defended the new iWork missing all those features would have no right criticizing Microsoft Office for iPad for missing so many features when it was released. In fact, I would expect these people to come to Microsoft's defense with all the same arguments they provided in defense of Apple. But I think we know how this will really play out.
The updates ARE awesome and coming faster then before they ripped the shit out of the applications ... HOWEVER, have they really got the applications back to what they could do before they neutered??? Let's see that happen, and then I'll cheer...
In addition, while the apps don't need to do everything MS Office can do, they still are missing a few key features that hobble them for use in higher education and for some broad aspects of enterprise use. MS Office is too overblown and a complicated mess, but iWorks is still missing some needed meat.
I believe Apple will build up the touch version of iWorks to where it will be optimized beautifully for mouse AND touch. At the same time I think MS Office will evolve into a worse version for touch while remaining a tough row to hoe for the average user. Remember, MS Word once fit on a single floppy disc, and everything after that was tacked on and added to, as an "as needed" kludge-patch job. Efforts to "fix" the UI, only made the UI harder to use.
It's simply not there. A Table of Contents is one of the most asked for feature for Pages. Without it, the application is neutered as a solid replacement to MS Office in higher education.
Actually, the "big FU" would be for those Apple apologists who insisted that those "neutered" versions of the applications were just fine when they were first released and that Apple didn't have to do anything more. And this was before Apple made their public announcement committing to adding back many of the features that were removed -- another "big FU" to Apple apologists. Would Apple have bothered to make such a public announcement, or bothered to add back those features at all and at such a pace, if absolutely nobody complained in the first place? I guess we'll never know. But I wouldn't want to take the chance.
By the way, these same people who defended the new iWork missing all those features would have no right criticizing Microsoft Office for iPad for missing so many features when it was released. In fact, I would expect these people to come to Microsoft's defense with all the same arguments they provided in defense of Apple. But I think we know how this will really play out.
Reasonable folks didn't say that things were just fine, but Apple has time and time again exhibited the same pattern with massive code rewrites or architectural shifts. They will do a ground up rewrite of something in order to have a solid and modern foundation, and then build on top of that. They did it with OS X, moving to Intel, Quicktime, Final Cut Pro and now with iWork.
While Apple is pretty good at is transitions, it doesn't always go as planned. Sure, Apple should have communicated better their roadmap for the new iWork suite, but I don't think what we are seeing now is a knee jerk reaction to public sentiment. It takes a lot of planning and work to add the features you are seeing. I think what they are trying to do with iWork is insanely complicated and it takes time. iWork is being simultaneously developed across three platforms with differing UX conventions and there is a fair amount of feature parity across all three platforms. Frankly, I think their approach while not always handled properly is the right approach.
At one time enterprise used Quark or Pagemaker for complicated documents and Word for simple docs. The former got ridiculously expensive and more omplicated to use, while Word got more of the DTP features and wasn't that expensive for large-scale purchases. Now, however, iWorks is free with iDevices, doesn't require an annual subscription cost, is optimized for touch devices, can be handled easily with large-scale free upgrades, and while simpler to use due to lack of many features (some additional, highly needed), lowers training costs. iWorks offers group collaboration via the iCloud, and is compatible with MS Word doc and docx.
Apple has an unspoken plan to really diminish the standardization on MS Office, and they may get it done before MS wakes up from it's fourteen-year-long slumber.