It's cheaper just to shoot them. Why waste the gas? /s
Honestly, the reason the homeless are in the cities is because there are more charitable people there who will give them a dollar and there are steam pipes they can sleep near to stay warm. If they were in the midwest somewhere they would die of starvation or freeze to death, but that's what you really want isn't it?
I might hold many various political opinions, but killing poor people is not of them." src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
I would also like to add that anybody giving a "poor person" a dollar or giving them food is not really helping at all, and those acts are illegal in many places, including where I live. I would never give a dime to any homeless person or panhandler on the subway, because it only makes the situation worse. Those people who give a dollar think that they are doing good, but it's the exact opposite. They should be ashamed of themselves, and they should be fined for breaking the law.
But seriously, eliminating the minimum wage would go further toward eliminating poverty than well-meaning but misguided philanthropy programs. By arbitrarily capping the lower end of wages, those with the lowest marketable skills are restricted from participating in the job market.
An interesting hypothesis. Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked? Call me a pessimist where human nature is concerned if you will, but I suspect many companies would simply pay less. Believe me I am not some far left liberal, far from it, I ran several companies and had many employees. I've seen both sides. I had a sales manager that had a company car, damn good basic and a profit sharing scheme plus bonuses ... and free gas for his company car. We discovered he was syphoning off his company car's gas to fill his wife's car and his boat every weekend, some weekends filling up his company car twice to accomplish this.
An interesting hypothesis. Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked? Call me a pessimist where human nature is concerned if you will, but I suspect many companies would simply pay less. Believe me I am not some far left liberal, far from it, I ran several companies and had many employees. I've seen both sides. I had a sales manager that had a company car, damn good basic and a profit sharing scheme plus bonuses ... and free gas for his company car. We discovered he was syphoning off his company car's gas to fill his wife's car and his boat every weekend, some weekends filling up his company car twice to accomplish this.
The story of the salesman is a hilarious example of well-intentioned actions having unintended results (for the company) and a further example that self-interest is the great truth of humanity. Giving away anything for "free" is a bad idea because people are experts at gaming systems. Just get out of their way and let them use their ingenuity to solve problems. Throwing money at a problem is always wasteful and inefficient.
With regard to your specific question {"Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked?")... this article addresses multiple aspects of the harm caused by the Minimum Wage:
In fact, as wages increase automation becomes more affordable and will be implemented quicker. In the very near future, even high-skill professions will be subject to forms of automation and replacement with artificial intelligence and advanced, inexpensive robotics.
further example that self-interest is the great truth of humanity. Giving away anything for "free" is a bad idea because people are experts at gaming the system. Just get out of their way and let them use their ingenuity to solve problems.
I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good. Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run. That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges. Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems. Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.
I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good. Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run. That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges. Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems. Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.
Self-interest, whether one chooses to recognize and acknowledge it as a fact is one of the great human truths. This isn't the "law of the jungle" at work here. Self-interest doesn't have to mean one bludgeons an enemy to defeat him, it can also mean one uses political connections to pass laws that extract taxes from large groups of people to "serve the public good" (especially if that "public good" is actually a special interest).
The sheer simplicity with which people think about and paint the world in this thread is astounding. I'll throw out one complication for those people to ponder on:
Many people living in poverty have a mental illness or similar condition which makes it difficult for them to get and/or hold a job. Shipping them away somewhere else won't change that, and it'll likely make it more difficult for them to get the help they need. Large cities typically have better health care facilities available. And while businesses can provide jobs for people, they generally aren't equipped to provide the support such people would need.
Anyways, good on Apple for their support for organizations trying to better the community.
I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good. Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run. That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges. Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems. Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.
I agree and in fact many scientists, as I am sure you know, feel it was precisely what you say that lead to the advance of our ancestors and separated them from others from whence they all evolved. Opposable thumbs helped too .
The sheer simplicity with which people think about and paint the world in this thread is astounding. I'll throw out one complication for those people to ponder on:
Many people living in poverty have a mental illness or similar condition which makes it difficult for them to get and/or hold a job. Shipping them away somewhere else won't change that, and it'll likely make it more difficult for them to get the help they need. Large cities typically have better health care facilities available. And while businesses can provide jobs for people, they generally aren't equipped to provide the support such people would need.
Anyways, good on Apple for their support for organizations trying to better the community.
I keep thinking how much fun it would be if all those that have that way of thinking could wake up one day, broke, sick and no relatives or family. Let them walk to the employment line in dirty clothes unshaven and demand they get an interview for a good paying job, or perhaps visit a bank for a loan to start a business. Or perhaps find they can no longer think coherently at all yet to their horror feel cold and hungry. Then let them meet their former self that doesn't recognize them and ask for the change for a hot coffee only to be told they are lazy good for nothings that deserve to die ... wait a minute isn't this already a book or a film?
I agree and in fact many scientists, as I am sure you know, feel it was precisely what you say that lead to the advance of our ancestors and separated them from others from whence they all evolved. Opposable thumbs helped too .
No arguments here have negated the fact that self-interest is being served. "Enlightened self-interest" also applies.
I keep thinking how much fun it would be if all those that have that way of thinking could wake up one day, broke, sick and no relatives or family. Let them walk to the employment line in dirty clothes unshaven and demand they get an interview for a good paying job, or perhaps visit a bank for a loan to start a business. Or perhaps find they can no longer think coherently at all yet to their horror feel cold and hungry. Then let them meet their former self that doesn't recognize them and ask for the change for a hot coffee only to be told they are lazy good for nothings that deserve to die ... wait a minute isn't this already a book or a film?
(Text in bold is mine)
This is not the basis for a valid argument. Steve Jobs dressed sloppily and smelled like shit when he used to work at Atari. Many employees complained about his smell (which was caused by his odd dietary choices), but he was a talented worker.
I'm born/raised in San Francisco. I've seen it all in every decade starting in the 70's. As of this year's figures, San Francisco spends about $165Million on homeless programs. Let's sit on that for a moment. That means in one decade alone, my tax money has contributed to over a billion dollars in one decade.
And what do we have to show for all that money spent? Nothing. Zip. Nada. What we ended up getting is cities from everywhere in the U.S. shipping their problems with a free bus ticket to SF because my moronic board of supervisors (that I did not vote for) happily accepts everyone on my dime. We have streets and sidewalks that are dangerous to walk on, in disrepair, and homeless folks that refuse to get assistance and defacate/urinate anywhere they please without fear or reprisal because some hippy-hugger feels it would be "mean" to treat their misfortune as a crime.
Apple is only doing this to score happy points with the progressive (i.e. "Whiny") vermin minority that seem to carry more weight than the majority tax-paying citizens of San Francisco.
This is not the basis for a valid argument. Steve Jobs dressed sloppily and smelled like shit when he used to work at Atari. Many employees complained about his smell (which was caused by his odd dietary choices), but he was a talented worker.
Oh come on lol, you nit picked one small part and twisted to suit your needs there. I think the point was simply, walk a mile in a persons shoes who is mentally below par, or sick and or broke. It might not be easy to be a smelly Steve Jobs for most. Remember, exactly half the population have an IQ less than the median 100 ... think about it.
I'm born/raised in San Francisco. I've seen it all in every decade starting in the 70's. As of this year's figures, San Francisco spends about $165Million on homeless programs. Let's sit on that for a moment. That means in one decade alone, my tax money has contributed to over a billion dollars in one decade.
And what do we have to show for all that money spent? Nothing. Zip. Nada. What we ended up getting is cities from everywhere in the U.S. shipping their problems with a free bus ticket to SF because my moronic board of supervisors (that I did not vote for) happily accepts everyone on my dime. We have streets and sidewalks that are dangerous to walk on, in disrepair, and homeless folks that refuse to get assistance and defacate/urinate anywhere they please without fear or reprisal because some hippy-hugger feels it would be "mean" to treat their misfortune as a crime.
Apple is only doing this to score happy points with the progressive (i.e. "Whiny") vermin minority that seem to carry more weight than the majority tax-paying citizens of San Francisco.
That is a very true issue, one place helps and they word goes out and voila mass migration there. I agree that is an issue seen now in Europe as they are flooded with poor east Europeans and Asians. But is the solution no one helps or if everyone did there would be no such migration? I truly don't know the answer.
Oh come on lol, you nit picked one small part and twisted to suit your needs there. I think the point was simply, walk a mile in a persons shoes who is mentally below par, or sick and or broke. It might not be easy to be a smelly Steve Jobs for most. Remember, exactly half the population have an IQ less than the median 100 ... think about it.
I don't think IQ plays into this unless one is talking about the severely mentally handicapped. In fact, it's insulting to imply "half the population" is incapable of getting and keeping a job unless businesses are forced to hire them or give them free money.
That is a very true issue, one place helps and they word goes out and voila mass migration there. I agree that is an issue seen now in Europe as they are flooded with poor east Europeans and Asians. But is the solution no one helps or if everyone did there would be no such migration? I truly don't know the answer.
Agreed but it doesn't help in a major situation, you need organization, resources etc an individual doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, I hate those that work the system as much as any one who pays taxes. But many don't and need help. I really don't mind if it is a private organization or not it's just that there needs to be an organized method to help.
Agreed but it doesn't help in a major situation, you need organization, resources etc an individual doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, I hate those that work the system as much as any one who pays taxes. But many don't and need help. I really don't mind if it is a private organization or not it's just that there needs to be an organized method to help.
Define a "major situation." Widespread unemployment? The quick answer is to eliminate both the minimum wage and the income tax. The more detailed answer is "FairTax".
I don't think IQ plays into this unless one is talking about the severely mentally handicapped. In fact, it's insulting to imply "half the population" is incapable of getting and keeping a job unless businesses are forced to hire them or give them free money.
I didn't insult anyone, it is a mathematical fact that the IQ spread is centered at 100. It is a bell curve so most are in and around there but for every person there is an equal and opposite one. The mirror image mentally of all college graduates or post graduates is still al lot of people. Having an IQ between 120 and 140 is probably common amongst those on this blog, but that means as many have an IQ of 60-80. Not mentally retarded but relatively challenged. They are not going to start their own business or put together a cash flow forecast for a bank to get a loan on one. Nor am I suggesting they get hand outs. I am simply pointing out the mantra that anyone can start a business and succeed if they work hard in the USA is BS if they are not too bright.
Define a "major situation." Widespread unemployment? The quick answer is to eliminate both the minimum wage and the income tax.
re major situation: I meant anywhere the problem is far greater than where one or even a few people's charity could help. As I say I am not suggesting this all be government run but I can't see why private enterprise would want to help after an earthquake, a polio outbreak or wide spread starvation caused by drought (just to name a few) unless they could make a profit.
Re min wage: I asked before as I don't know, can you cite a first world country with no mimim wage and show the relative improvements in wages and standards that country has and you say would come if we did likewise? I haven't found such data yet but there may be some I am not disagreeing, I'd just like some evidence. If it is there, fine.
Comments
Okay. Keep dreaming, I guess.
It's cheaper just to shoot them. Why waste the gas? /s
Honestly, the reason the homeless are in the cities is because there are more charitable people there who will give them a dollar and there are steam pipes they can sleep near to stay warm. If they were in the midwest somewhere they would die of starvation or freeze to death, but that's what you really want isn't it?
I might hold many various political opinions, but killing poor people is not of them.
" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
I would also like to add that anybody giving a "poor person" a dollar or giving them food is not really helping at all, and those acts are illegal in many places, including where I live. I would never give a dime to any homeless person or panhandler on the subway, because it only makes the situation worse. Those people who give a dollar think that they are doing good, but it's the exact opposite. They should be ashamed of themselves, and they should be fined for breaking the law.
An interesting hypothesis. Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked? Call me a pessimist where human nature is concerned if you will, but I suspect many companies would simply pay less. Believe me I am not some far left liberal, far from it, I ran several companies and had many employees. I've seen both sides. I had a sales manager that had a company car, damn good basic and a profit sharing scheme plus bonuses ... and free gas for his company car. We discovered he was syphoning off his company car's gas to fill his wife's car and his boat every weekend, some weekends filling up his company car twice to accomplish this.
The story of the salesman is a hilarious example of well-intentioned actions having unintended results (for the company) and a further example that self-interest is the great truth of humanity. Giving away anything for "free" is a bad idea because people are experts at gaming systems. Just get out of their way and let them use their ingenuity to solve problems. Throwing money at a problem is always wasteful and inefficient.
With regard to your specific question {"Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked?")... this article addresses multiple aspects of the harm caused by the Minimum Wage:
http://consultingbyrpm.com/blog/2013/02/even-more-thoughts-on-the-minimum-wage.html
In fact, as wages increase automation becomes more affordable and will be implemented quicker. In the very near future, even high-skill professions will be subject to forms of automation and replacement with artificial intelligence and advanced, inexpensive robotics.
I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good. Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run. That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges. Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems. Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.
I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good. Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run. That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges. Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems. Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.
Self-interest, whether one chooses to recognize and acknowledge it as a fact is one of the great human truths. This isn't the "law of the jungle" at work here. Self-interest doesn't have to mean one bludgeons an enemy to defeat him, it can also mean one uses political connections to pass laws that extract taxes from large groups of people to "serve the public good" (especially if that "public good" is actually a special interest).
The sheer simplicity with which people think about and paint the world in this thread is astounding. I'll throw out one complication for those people to ponder on:
Many people living in poverty have a mental illness or similar condition which makes it difficult for them to get and/or hold a job. Shipping them away somewhere else won't change that, and it'll likely make it more difficult for them to get the help they need. Large cities typically have better health care facilities available. And while businesses can provide jobs for people, they generally aren't equipped to provide the support such people would need.
Anyways, good on Apple for their support for organizations trying to better the community.
I agree and in fact many scientists, as I am sure you know, feel it was precisely what you say that lead to the advance of our ancestors and separated them from others from whence they all evolved. Opposable thumbs helped too
I keep thinking how much fun it would be if all those that have that way of thinking could wake up one day, broke, sick and no relatives or family. Let them walk to the employment line in dirty clothes unshaven and demand they get an interview for a good paying job, or perhaps visit a bank for a loan to start a business. Or perhaps find they can no longer think coherently at all yet to their horror feel cold and hungry. Then let them meet their former self that doesn't recognize them and ask for the change for a hot coffee only to be told they are lazy good for nothings that deserve to die ... wait a minute isn't this already a book or a film?
I agree and in fact many scientists, as I am sure you know, feel it was precisely what you say that lead to the advance of our ancestors and separated them from others from whence they all evolved. Opposable thumbs helped too
No arguments here have negated the fact that self-interest is being served. "Enlightened self-interest" also applies.
I keep thinking how much fun it would be if all those that have that way of thinking could wake up one day, broke, sick and no relatives or family. Let them walk to the employment line in dirty clothes unshaven and demand they get an interview for a good paying job, or perhaps visit a bank for a loan to start a business. Or perhaps find they can no longer think coherently at all yet to their horror feel cold and hungry. Then let them meet their former self that doesn't recognize them and ask for the change for a hot coffee only to be told they are lazy good for nothings that deserve to die ... wait a minute isn't this already a book or a film?
(Text in bold is mine)
This is not the basis for a valid argument. Steve Jobs dressed sloppily and smelled like shit when he used to work at Atari. Many employees complained about his smell (which was caused by his odd dietary choices), but he was a talented worker.
I'm born/raised in San Francisco. I've seen it all in every decade starting in the 70's. As of this year's figures, San Francisco spends about $165Million on homeless programs. Let's sit on that for a moment. That means in one decade alone, my tax money has contributed to over a billion dollars in one decade.
And what do we have to show for all that money spent? Nothing. Zip. Nada. What we ended up getting is cities from everywhere in the U.S. shipping their problems with a free bus ticket to SF because my moronic board of supervisors (that I did not vote for) happily accepts everyone on my dime. We have streets and sidewalks that are dangerous to walk on, in disrepair, and homeless folks that refuse to get assistance and defacate/urinate anywhere they please without fear or reprisal because some hippy-hugger feels it would be "mean" to treat their misfortune as a crime.
Apple is only doing this to score happy points with the progressive (i.e. "Whiny") vermin minority that seem to carry more weight than the majority tax-paying citizens of San Francisco.
Oh come on lol, you nit picked one small part and twisted to suit your needs there. I think the point was simply, walk a mile in a persons shoes who is mentally below par, or sick and or broke. It might not be easy to be a smelly Steve Jobs for most. Remember, exactly half the population have an IQ less than the median 100 ... think about it.
That is a very true issue, one place helps and they word goes out and voila mass migration there. I agree that is an issue seen now in Europe as they are flooded with poor east Europeans and Asians. But is the solution no one helps or if everyone did there would be no such migration? I truly don't know the answer.
Oh come on lol, you nit picked one small part and twisted to suit your needs there. I think the point was simply, walk a mile in a persons shoes who is mentally below par, or sick and or broke. It might not be easy to be a smelly Steve Jobs for most. Remember, exactly half the population have an IQ less than the median 100 ... think about it.
I don't think IQ plays into this unless one is talking about the severely mentally handicapped. In fact, it's insulting to imply "half the population" is incapable of getting and keeping a job unless businesses are forced to hire them or give them free money.
That is a very true issue, one place helps and they word goes out and voila mass migration there. I agree that is an issue seen now in Europe as they are flooded with poor east Europeans and Asians. But is the solution no one helps or if everyone did there would be no such migration? I truly don't know the answer.
Individual charity is fine.
Agreed but it doesn't help in a major situation, you need organization, resources etc an individual doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, I hate those that work the system as much as any one who pays taxes. But many don't and need help. I really don't mind if it is a private organization or not it's just that there needs to be an organized method to help.
Agreed but it doesn't help in a major situation, you need organization, resources etc an individual doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, I hate those that work the system as much as any one who pays taxes. But many don't and need help. I really don't mind if it is a private organization or not it's just that there needs to be an organized method to help.
Define a "major situation." Widespread unemployment? The quick answer is to eliminate both the minimum wage and the income tax. The more detailed answer is "FairTax".
I didn't insult anyone, it is a mathematical fact that the IQ spread is centered at 100. It is a bell curve so most are in and around there but for every person there is an equal and opposite one. The mirror image mentally of all college graduates or post graduates is still al lot of people. Having an IQ between 120 and 140 is probably common amongst those on this blog, but that means as many have an IQ of 60-80. Not mentally retarded but relatively challenged. They are not going to start their own business or put together a cash flow forecast for a bank to get a loan on one. Nor am I suggesting they get hand outs. I am simply pointing out the mantra that anyone can start a business and succeed if they work hard in the USA is BS if they are not too bright.
re major situation: I meant anywhere the problem is far greater than where one or even a few people's charity could help. As I say I am not suggesting this all be government run but I can't see why private enterprise would want to help after an earthquake, a polio outbreak or wide spread starvation caused by drought (just to name a few) unless they could make a profit.
Re min wage: I asked before as I don't know, can you cite a first world country with no mimim wage and show the relative improvements in wages and standards that country has and you say would come if we did likewise? I haven't found such data yet but there may be some I am not disagreeing, I'd just like some evidence. If it is there, fine.
Sorry, off topic ... HOLY COW AAPL PASSED 600